that did happen actually and not too many turns ago it was part of the renegotiation of the treaty of Farixen
Shepard Quest Mk VII, Age of Revy (ME/MCU)
- Thread starter tri2
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I think it was one of the things we helped push through with our alien treatments.
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Hmm. I may need to do a reread.
Turian society is frankly just more suited to being the space cops and general beatstick of the Citadel.
You just aren't going to get humans dedicating the same resources without running the risk of nurturing the worst parts of us.
The Turians are authoritarian and have their problems, no doubt, but there seems to be something in their psychology or culture that keeps it from going as rotten as it does in humans.
Humans are better positioned in the Citadel as industrial drivers and a sleeping giant going by canon, especially with Revy pushing a new industrial revolution.
So at least querying the possibility of selling something to the Turians, even if it's a relatively limited package is probably the responsible thing to do.
You just aren't going to get humans dedicating the same resources without running the risk of nurturing the worst parts of us.
The Turians are authoritarian and have their problems, no doubt, but there seems to be something in their psychology or culture that keeps it from going as rotten as it does in humans.
Humans are better positioned in the Citadel as industrial drivers and a sleeping giant going by canon, especially with Revy pushing a new industrial revolution.
So at least querying the possibility of selling something to the Turians, even if it's a relatively limited package is probably the responsible thing to do.
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What if we make Gundams for the Turians?
They get a fancy new toy that lets them kick ass, while the SA doesn't worry about Revy tier ships being given out.
A Turian navy modernization program would certainly be a serious cash stream since even low end calculations put them at ~30 trillion per year just in procurement and they could likely surge that for a couple years as part of a wartime program. Unfortunately they can't actually get them much. The Turians clearly follow a pattern of 1 Dreadnought, 100 Cruisers, and 1,000 Frigates per fleet. Dreadnoughts take 4 quarter to construct, Cruisers 2 quarters, and Frigates 1 quarter. So each quarter the Turians are paying for 0.25 Dreadnoughts, 25 Cruisers, and 250 Frigates then using the current LLP design and scaling upwards (plus assuming a 1:9 Heavy:Light Cruiser ratio) that comes to a credit total of ~32 trillion per quarter.
So if we assume that low end was very low end and that they can dedicate their entire procurement budget to new PI Ships we are at best talking one fleet replacement per year. Which sounds well and good until you remember the Turians have 37 Dreadnoughts and thus almost certainly 37 fleets so we're basically talking it taking two generations to complete the modernization program. Even if the Turians accept that replacing their Dreadnoughts and Heavy Cruisers just isn't in the budget we're still talking an entire generation of modernization.
Ultimately the problem is that fleets are expensive and that is normally offset by the slow pace of technology meaning replacements takes decades. Just look at the IRL Nimitz-class which was only replaced (a program scheduled to take roughly twenty years) after forty years of service. Paragon Industries pulling a HMS Dreadnought and obsolescing their entire fleet is going to do terrible things to the Hegemony's economy as they try and modernize.
This isn't something they can really ignore either. In this battle while their Dreadnoughts survived they otherwise lost over two fleets of ships (>200 Cruisers and >2,000 Frigates) that now need replacing.
So if we assume that low end was very low end and that they can dedicate their entire procurement budget to new PI Ships we are at best talking one fleet replacement per year. Which sounds well and good until you remember the Turians have 37 Dreadnoughts and thus almost certainly 37 fleets so we're basically talking it taking two generations to complete the modernization program. Even if the Turians accept that replacing their Dreadnoughts and Heavy Cruisers just isn't in the budget we're still talking an entire generation of modernization.
Ultimately the problem is that fleets are expensive and that is normally offset by the slow pace of technology meaning replacements takes decades. Just look at the IRL Nimitz-class which was only replaced (a program scheduled to take roughly twenty years) after forty years of service. Paragon Industries pulling a HMS Dreadnought and obsolescing their entire fleet is going to do terrible things to the Hegemony's economy as they try and modernize.
This isn't something they can really ignore either. In this battle while their Dreadnoughts survived they otherwise lost over two fleets of ships (>200 Cruisers and >2,000 Frigates) that now need replacing.
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asari? peace
salarians? their tech and relay bypass knowledge
turians? pacification of batarians as a actual threat, get them back under council control, free slaves, if possible their tech knowledge
overall? end the batarians as a threat and figure out how they bypass the relays, the core idea behind their defensive strategies.
HanEmpire
Delicious
I just hope this doesn't make the Citadel get paranoid and try to suppress the Systems Alliance.
Easiest way around will be just to embrace them and make them a voting member of the Council, but that opens up the possibility of deadlocks. Will they let the Volus be a Council member too, at the cost of potentially giving the Turians two votes?
Easiest way around will be just to embrace them and make them a voting member of the Council, but that opens up the possibility of deadlocks. Will they let the Volus be a Council member too, at the cost of potentially giving the Turians two votes?
Well I think primarily they need the Batarian government to capitulate to Citadel and/or Alliance demands, so promising to cease the raids, and the doublespeak they previously used to provide that fig leaf. However the Batarians seem to have decided they're not gonna do that without a bit more leverage. So in Citadel terms the next step is to start shooting their navy down, and then occupy their major worlds until you either reach the home world, or the Batarian government capitulates. Depending on how far gone they are on either reaper nonsense or their own propaganda this may end up with a full occupation of their territory, and a complete rebuild of their society.
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Also there is the issue that with those numbers by the time wed be halfway there to finish modernizing their fleets wed have made that upgrade long since irellevant for warfare.
Right now it isn't as big of an issue for the Citadel, they are in a war with a power that is closer in tech to the SA than themselves - and the Batarians sure are not going to bother keeping to any dreadnaught restrictions at this point. Now how much production they have is up in the air, but I don't think the Council is going to be too restrictive when fighting a war.
The current budget is helped by the fact we can't make most of what they would order. We have LLPs, which they would be happy to buy our entire production of, but nothing heavier IIRC. Even the LLPs we can produce are less than what they and the SA would want. Dreadnaught and other vessels getting block upgrades with ARC reactors and better shields are relatively cheap and doable, but don't help the firepower issue much.
Though I do agree this war is going to generate insane procurement budgets with how fast both Revy and the Batarians are at upgrading tech. The talks for getting funding for those upgrades are going to be painful for the Council as they will need a bigger budget if they want to remain relevant. I can see the possibility of rotating fleets if this goes on long enough as older designs are relegated to safer areas while the new stuff is on the front.
That would make lighter and therefore cheaper designs more desirable as it makes new revolutionary tech faster to deploy en masse and way cheaper than trying to upgrade dreadnaughts fast enough to stay relevant.
The Council is gonna first the tech to make there fleets on par or close to what the SA is doing, and that is gonna take time as they dont have a Revi on there side
With Terminus losing a lot of ships and manpower along with the Batarian no longer being able to fund pirates and warlords, it should be easy for our corpo to take some worlds and systems. Mining and corpo colonies that Revi is allow to make as she wants to could be fun, and systems would have a lot of resources to mine for money and our corpo use
With Terminus losing a lot of ships and manpower along with the Batarian no longer being able to fund pirates and warlords, it should be easy for our corpo to take some worlds and systems. Mining and corpo colonies that Revi is allow to make as she wants to could be fun, and systems would have a lot of resources to mine for money and our corpo use
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So it sounds like the issue for a full military revamp is that new toys are expensive and refurbishing old toys with the tools we have will only make them more durable not more shooty.
There's three potential solutions I'm musing on.
The first is, on paper, the easiest. If the new toys are too expensive, lower the cash price. Sell them at cost and in exchange for political favors and other things, like more labs and personnel, or restricted research access/permins (AI and Gene mods come to mind), or colony rights and support, or special tutors to help Revy Learn Things More, or- you get the point. Basically, getting payment in kind rather than cash. Maybe they can pay for some of it in factories to actually make the stuff for them.
The second that comes to mind is developing an externally attachable device of some sort that can leverage an arc reactor's output for weapon purposes. If part of the problem is that old ships can't make use of the new outputs and a full rebuild is too expensive and time consuming to be worthwhile, then making something that can be hooked up on the outside seems like a hypothetical solution, at least in part.
The third that comes to mind is poking at those Ship Scale Weapon Mods we picked up. If a deeper rebuild isn't infeasible, then creating a way for existing weapon systems to do more by adding some techno magic and More Power seems like a very on brand solution for us.
So, to recap.
The issue seems to be either a lack of money or a lack of "cheap" refurbishment options. If we want to bring the entire Turian military up to specs, then the solution is either take our pound of blood in other types or develop a new "cheap" refurbishment option that let's they put the hurt out.
There's three potential solutions I'm musing on.
The first is, on paper, the easiest. If the new toys are too expensive, lower the cash price. Sell them at cost and in exchange for political favors and other things, like more labs and personnel, or restricted research access/permins (AI and Gene mods come to mind), or colony rights and support, or special tutors to help Revy Learn Things More, or- you get the point. Basically, getting payment in kind rather than cash. Maybe they can pay for some of it in factories to actually make the stuff for them.
The second that comes to mind is developing an externally attachable device of some sort that can leverage an arc reactor's output for weapon purposes. If part of the problem is that old ships can't make use of the new outputs and a full rebuild is too expensive and time consuming to be worthwhile, then making something that can be hooked up on the outside seems like a hypothetical solution, at least in part.
The third that comes to mind is poking at those Ship Scale Weapon Mods we picked up. If a deeper rebuild isn't infeasible, then creating a way for existing weapon systems to do more by adding some techno magic and More Power seems like a very on brand solution for us.
So, to recap.
The issue seems to be either a lack of money or a lack of "cheap" refurbishment options. If we want to bring the entire Turian military up to specs, then the solution is either take our pound of blood in other types or develop a new "cheap" refurbishment option that let's they put the hurt out.
Eh; I don't think this makes a big as a difference as you may think. The first issue is that we've already completed research for Light and Heavy Cruisers so all we need to begin production of those is for someone to actually put together a design and get it voted on for proposing to the Alliance. The reason I haven't done so already is I'm looking for a few more technological advances to make them sufficiently revolutionary; oh and so that along with them we can put forth a refit package for the LLP which should be pretty cheap and simple given that the Pynda package was designed around hypermodularity and the idea we'd be upgrading its lasers once we researched the appropriate technology. That is why it is called the Lite Laser Pynda after all.
As for our Production capacity; you are closer here then in the other regard but it still isn't that much of an impact. We promised the Alliance 300 LLP per year starting 2175 and while the first half of the year was rocky (9 and 36 in the first and second quarters) the third and fourth (100 and a planned 155 respectively) make up for that and mean we'll meet our target. In 2176 we'll have enough Production to meet our quota and still produce another 891 (just shy of quadrupling the quota) less whatever else we actually end up dedicating our excess Production to.
So we aren't quite at the ability to spit out entire fleets yet since a Dreadnought, ten Heavy Cruisers, 90 Light Cruisers, and 1,000 Frigates in a year requires 221,968,500 Production and in 2176 we only total 124,800,000 Production and even 2177 isn't that much of an improvement at 172,800,000 Production. That said while in game terms it is a massive time away 2178 is only two years away, which is nothing in terms of military procurement, in universe and by then we'll have 466,800,000 Production or enough to build two of the above fleets per year.
I suppose by then if they start saving today the Turians might be able to afford to replace the fleets they just lost in the last battle. Unless of course @tri2 goes for a significantly larger Turian Hierarchy in terms of economy but looking at IRL standards ten to twenty years to replace your fleet is pretty normal budgetary speaking.
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Eh the council has the money to pay us for refurbishing their fleets , and the incentives to do so with how this war goes.
The issue is less the expenses and more us simply not having the industrial capacity to rebuild that many ships in a reasonable time frame i think, though the math wizards probably have more accurate figures on this.
Edit:though the idea of trading stuff at cost for favors is great , revy has long sinced reached funny level of income so more money while welcome is likely less effectove then those favours.
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An alternative is doing some research into less expensive refit options for weaponry. It's not impossible after all, and can be done. It just wasn't needed or wanted, with what the SA was planning concerning their fleet.
The turrians on the other hand, given how fast they need to improve their fleet, along with its sheer size and the time to replace it? even with the research cost it's likely to be cheaper and quicker then only building a new fleet up.
The turrians on the other hand, given how fast they need to improve their fleet, along with its sheer size and the time to replace it? even with the research cost it's likely to be cheaper and quicker then only building a new fleet up.
Well, is in the process of being rewritten IIRC.
How do the numbers look if they just start making new LLPs, with aspirations to work up to cruisers and dreadnoughts as time and budgets allow? (Also one advantage of modular tech is modernization being easier going forward)
I believe that we're paying in installments, and as payment goes through we can do more and more stuff there.
We probably want to talk to the Systems Alliance about what their rules on sharing nice toys with the Council in general and the Taurians specifically are going to be in the near future given the likelihood of everyone wanting newer and better ships soon for some reason. Just selling block upgrades for things like shields, armor and fire control would be a step up without crossing too many lines.
Should have paid that this quarter although there isn't anything in the updates about it having completed that I can find. But I did budget for it!
So, two observations from this battle; we may have a market for veritech fighter analogues given the performance of the not!Gundams demonstrated here ("acts like fighters but can also transform and provide sustained fire support to ground actions"?), and the Turian admiral is going to be crucified on principle despite it being an unreasonable thing given tech disparity. Anything we can do to help them? Say, hire them as a military consultant or something?