On the other hand, I just realized that how f*cking scary TIR shielded missiles would be.
On the other hand, I just realized that how f*cking scary TIR shielded missiles would be.
I think that's getting too close to time-traveling munitions, since we're talking about adding FTL quality barriers and eezo cores to missiles, and we have @Hoyr asking us to please stop. For the children.On the other hand, I just realized that how f*cking scary TIR shielded missiles would be.
Do we actually have a counter-missile? That sounds like something that would be relatively useful. As soon as TIR shields come online, the only thing that would reliably be able to kill a missile or a fighter would be a Kinetic Impact.This drone should never get closer enough to use a gun for anything: if it gets within a mile of a target it's because it's being chased. Stuff like missile chaff, and Sagitta/Pilium missile pods would make more sense.
I guess the next step is coming up with logistics drones that can be deployed from your AWACS drone, or a Tiger. Sort of a prelude to 'VERONICA'.
True, true. But I'm not talking FTL munitions (which won't be time travelling somehow, given that they aren't in canon). As I noted above, the power and eezo amounts required to generate a ME field scale exponentially with mass affected and with the "grade" of the field (how strong it is). Barriers don't actually (normally) affect much of anything - the field is projected to near the protected object. This lowers the amount of eezo needed greatly. Hence why Normandy's shields don't cost nearly as much as Normandy's drive core. The same with fully developed TIR shielding - it'll cover vacuum near the missile, but not the missile itself.I think that's getting too close to time-traveling munitions, since we're talking about adding FTL quality barriers and eezo cores to missiles, and we have @Hoyr asking us to please stop. For the children.
Well the Tiger is already using Sagitta missiles to counter Piliums and other heavy weapons. Our Improved Fire Control VI seems able to shoot other weapons out of the sky fairly accurately as-is.Do we actually have a counter-missile? That sounds like something that would be relatively useful. As soon as TIR shields come online, the only thing that would reliably be able to kill a missile or a fighter would be a Kinetic Impact.
I don't know if the MFTM-1 "Super Driver" is considered canon, but something similar to the Block 1 Standard Missile is probably something that would be sorely needed in the future.
Or we start using SR4 rules, in which case the missiles suddenly stop being able to hit anything because reasons. I have an omake idea for that: the universe decides to play dice with people at random intervals (the Illusive Man fails to open a door and face-plants; Joker crit-fails a Piloting check in a simulator and crashes; Gaver Dor fails a strength check and fails to lift his desk), and Revy tries unsuccessfully to harness this power FOR SCIENCE! Don't have time to whip my weak and uncooperative muse into gear, though, as I'll be out of the country for most of the month starting Sunday and I need to pack.Although yeah, this is getting into very scary areas in general. Space combat in ME, especially with our additions, is incredibly asymmetric. Essentially, the one to attack first wins, and there's little that can be done to protect stationary targets, the only real safety measures being either complete and permanent shielding or simply not being hit in the first place.
Though gravity sensors would mitigate this a lot.
Please tell me you are not going to make me differentiate between stations in LPO and deep space ones... that's going to make things more complicated...I guess you could have somethings not have much shielding... just don't move it ever.
That said you still need some of the the stuff. Having trouble finding any numbers though.
I think for rad shielding that we just need to straight-up detail how we're dealing with cosmic rays for each station on an individual basis, separate from the cost of construction. The three we'll be relying on:Eh a lot of the cost were from the factory size/cost thingy. Actually I'm tempted to change it from buildings to building size using those size values I made up. The number of buildings was just me making up numbers... no thought other than one level needs to be a single building.
Like I said you have a suggestion for better numbers and reasoning... go ahead.
True, true. But I'm not talking FTL munitions (which won't be time travelling somehow, given that they aren't in canon). As I noted above, the power and eezo amounts required to generate a ME field scale exponentially with mass affected and with the "grade" of the field (how strong it is). Barriers don't actually (normally) affect much of anything - the field is projected to near the protected object. This lowers the amount of eezo needed greatly. Hence why Normandy's shields don't cost nearly as much as Normandy's drive core. The same with fully developed TIR shielding - it'll cover vacuum near the missile, but not the missile itself.
Although yeah, this is getting into very scary areas in general. Space combat in ME, especially with our additions, is incredibly asymmetric. Essentially, the one to attack first wins, and there's little that can be done to protect stationary targets, the only real safety measures being either complete and permanent shielding or simply not being hit in the first place.
Though gravity sensors would mitigate this a lot.
Hanging out behind a large asteroid. Requires the asteroid, plus a thruster array for station-keeping.
Other than that, just charge a premium of say 50 million * sum of building sizes, upkeep of 2 million * building sizes in additional upkeep, for a station meant for long-term habitation. For short-term habitation we can get away with a Virgo per 10 size units of buildings, plus say 10 million * sum of building sizes per quarter in extra upkeep.
In the War Assets/Alien listing, there is an Asari Cruiser that had a dreadnought class drive core installed by accident and it could generate dreadnought class kinetic barriers because it.
I think its more like the drive core pumps out dark energy/makes dark matter appear, they pull the dark energy/matter away and shunt it into whatever system needs it.
The bigger the drive core, the more dark energy/matter you have, thus stronger shields or more powerful guns or both if you built your ship to accommodate it.
Funny, yes. Still, fluff-wise, this all leads to the only possible long-term conclusion: abandoning planets and living in ships / habitats with shields and active sensors. Essentially Culture. And I am ok with that.Or we start using SR4 rules, in which case the missiles suddenly stop being able to hit anything because reasons. I have an omake idea for that: the universe decides to play dice with people at random intervals (the Illusive Man fails to open a door and face-plants; Joker crit-fails a Piloting check in a simulator and crashes; Gaver Dor fails a strength check and fails to lift his desk), and Revy tries unsuccessfully to harness this power FOR SCIENCE! Don't have time to whip my weak and uncooperative muse into gear, though, as I'll be out of the country for most of the month starting Sunday and I need to pack.
Well, protium to protium is harder than pretty much anything else. It requires more density and higher "temperatures".Although I do not understand why they do not use pure hydrogen to hydrogen fusion, as it would allow you to produce helium four along with berylium eight which then can be fused together to create carbon twelve which is a perfectly safe carbon isotope that can be converted into diamonds...
Huh, so drive core stands for both the FTL generation system and the primary power generation system? That... makes sense, somewhat. Interesting to know.From the text the engineers got an XL sized core and though hey, why don't we upgrade everything else to match. It should be noted here that the drive core also seems to include the fusion (or fission) core as its noted as a power source (Okay...? I guess that makes ship terminology really complicated.). Anyway the upgrade to the power systems is what give her Dreadnought barriers, not the size of her eezo core. I'm going to assume that by engine they mean power generating engine not thrusters as that would be extra silly. Or in short XL Drive Core -> Power Upgrade = Better Shields not Bigger Core=Better Shields.
You I like.Hey, what happens if you have a matter-antimatter annihilation inside a mass increasing field? Do you actually get more energy or do you actually get the same?
That part was deliberate. It was accidentally a dreadnought core into a cruiser's construction dock. Probably just a paperwork screw up that they decided to capitalize on rather than try to fix....How the fuck do you accidentally a dreadnaught core into a cruiser?
It depends. It's one interpretation of Virmire kilotons at least. In my paper I go with "you get the same, as MC^2 remains constant, resulting in changes in C with changes in M", but there are, obviously, other interpretations too.Hey, what happens if you have a matter-antimatter annihilation inside a mass increasing field? Do you actually get more energy or do you actually get the same?
Explaining the level of security and maybe communicating about the level of blackboxing you intend to use would probably help. Maybe communicating about places you intend to deploy stuff.
Also about the whole 'heavy' and 'light' dark energy....that is not what happens, they use dark energy to generate mass effect fields.
Flawless Blackboxing means the tech is a literal blackbox right? So anyone who gets a copy of our Repulsor* once we've completed it won't be able to do stuff like mess with the Repulsor's programming right?
*I am assuming that we automatically upgrade tech to our highest level of blackboxing since there isn't really a reason not to and it limits the number of easier to crack copies out there.
If so I imagine making the software such that it requires the main computer send the Repulsor a password and token to activate would make salvaging the thing practically impossible.
There would be a couple passwords programmed in by the device's users which would likely have to be done at a secure PI facility with a PI only interface device. But the real security would be in the tokens.
I'm picturing Tokens that only function for a preset time. The user receives theirs before a mission and it's pre-programmed to only last the expected length of the mission plus a reasonable margin of error.
At least that is my initial idea of how to secure Repulsors to a level that would satisfy the SA.
Be-8 has a half life of 10^-17 seconds, and decays back to two He-4 nuclei, which basically gives you nothing. The only place where you can do anything with it is the center of a red giant star, where it reacts to form C-12 near-instantly; you can't do it in a controlled environment.Although I do not understand why they do not use pure hydrogen to hydrogen fusion, as it would allow you to produce helium four along with berylium eight which then can be fused together to create carbon twelve which is a perfectly safe carbon isotope that can be converted into diamonds...
Well, given that the FTL eezo core is probably the biggest power hog on the ship, other than maybe the main gun, it makes sense.Huh, so drive core stands for both the FTL generation system and the primary power generation system? That... makes sense, somewhat. Interesting to know.
"Hey, buddy, you're the one telling me to withhold the galaxy-changing technological revolution in order to save lives, and then deploying it to kill people. I'm just trying to match the level of crazy in the room.""Hey could you not spread your tech around?"
"Well, we kinda planned on using it... How about if we make it so that it used limited and require check-ins for it to be to refresh uses. I'm sure that it won't run out at the wrong time because our people couldn't make check in."
"And you could make it explode if it hasn't been checked in for too long."
"Great idea! That too!"
"That was a joke."
Well, thinking more about it, saying that E=MC^2 is constant doesn't let one to preserve the explosive yields completely. Because yeah, sure, you have the same release of energy in and outside of the ME field. But then you have to take blueshift into account, and if you are dealing with annihilation, then it just gets nasty, as the total energy observed by the observer outside the field changes...I like my universes mostly intact. Or at least like having breaking them take effort.
You are good a physics. I can bearly follow (only through google). But as I had written I did not knew how it scales and run with the assumption that it scales linear. I know that that is unrealistic but I had no better idea.How are you doing scaling? The amount of eezo and the power needed to a create a mass effect field of a given strength affecting an object of a givenmass scale exponentially with both the mass affected and the strength of a field (specifically with c_in/c, where c_n is the speed of light inside the field, c speed of light in normal vacuum). Now, the shields don't affect the actual ship, but there's no such thing as perfect vacuum...
Actually, never mind. Instead of making one big shield, which would scale exponentially, one instead would make lots and lots of small shield emitters, where each shield would affect a given volume of space, essentially creating shield "scales", instead of a single "shell". This way the amount of eezo and power (and, thus, costs) scale linearly with the surface area protected (and one gets massive redundancy where local shield overload doesn't affect the shield in other areas) instead of exponentially.
Say, isn't this how shields actually work in ME? I doubt Bioware thought of this, but it's an I teresting bit of trivia.
Please explain your notation, it's very hard to follow, sorry.You are good a physics. I can bearly follow (only through google). But as I had written I did not knew how it scales and run with the assumption that it scales linear. I know that that is unrealistic but I had no better idea.
As you pointed out if the emitters scale linear to the area it leaves the power as the second factor.
That leaves the power generation for the shield.Emitters m³ = Thickness * Area * Scalierung ^ Logx(Stärke)
Thickness of the equipment.
Area protected
Scalierung ^ Logx(Stärke) => Building Emitters becomes harder as the projected power increases
I am not going into cost and focus on the size of the equipment.Power generation and Disturbing m³ = Scale1 * Root( Strength) + Scale2 * Volumen
Scale1 and Scale 2 are shameless scaleable integer. I am open for improvements.
Root(Strength) takes the assumption that bigger thinks have it easier.
Volumen of the shield as indicator for how hard it is to power all emiters.
But how to calculate them?
Does this help?Lets take the assumption that a readnought is similar protected against its own weapon as an soldier.
The spinal MA is rated with 38 kilotonnes TNT per shoot. That are 158,992,000,000,000 Jules of energy.
I dont know how strong infantery weapons in ME are but scince they seem to work similar enough to "modern" weapons with recoil and all I am going to take them as a base.
Caliber 5,56 × 45 mm NATO rounds sports 1,800 Jules of energy.
There is a massive difference in zeros...
If your common soldier has a defence rating of 1 a dreadnaught would have a rating of 88,328,888,889.
What we "know" as well is how much equipment they are using. We even have 3 date points.
Soldier= Def:1 ; Equipment:0,01m³ (rougly 10 litre for hardsuit)
Hulk Buster Idea= Defreadnaught(88,328,888,889) ; Equipment:240m³ (as stated)
Dreadnaught= Def:88,328,888,889 ; Equipment: rougly 10% (aproximate 392,699,082m³ size point to 39,269,908.2m³ for the shield)
The next step had nothing to do with math but lots of testing until I got the answers I wanted
Emitters m³ = Thickness * Area * Scalierung ^ Logx(Stärke)
Emitters m³ = 0,0004* Area * 1,25^ Log1,75(Stärke)
Power generation and Disturbing m³ = Scale1 * Root( Strength) + Scale2 * Volumen
Power generation and Disturbing m³ = 0,000009 * SquareRoot( Strength) + 0,0015 * Volumen
Why? If each emitter covers a given area, and uses a given amount of power, then the power would also scale linearly with surface area.As you pointed out if the emitters scale linear to the area it leaves the power as the second factor.
Yes. The emitters for the area protection scale linear but have no input to the strength of the shield. My headcanon is that the emitters have to become more and more complex/big as the strength of the shield they project increases.Please explain your notation, it's very hard to follow, sorry.
Some other notes:
Why? If each emitter covers a given area, and uses a given amount of power, then the power would also scale linearly with surface area.
Is the notations now better?You are good a physics. I can bearly follow (only through google). But as I had written I did not knew how it scales and run with the assumption that it scales linear. I know that that is unrealistic but I had no better idea.
As you pointed out if the emitters scale linear to the area it leaves the power of the shield as the second factor.
That leaves the power generation for the shield.To project a shield for a given area a given amount of equipment is needed. Scince it fits into infantery hardsuits it can be fairly thin. Lets call it Thickness for the moment.
How many of the shield emitter you need is linear to the protected Area.
So far we only have the ability to create a shield. Its strength is unknown but most likely the emitters will get bigger if the strength of the shield increases. That means that we need to Scale the needed equipment based on the planned strength of the shield.
The weakest shield fit into hardsuits and can handle infantery weapons but the strongest are build into dreadnaughts that hit with the strength of atome bombs. I doubt that the scaling is linear to the strength so I will use a function based on logarithm to influence it. Log(Stärke)
At this time I do not know wich logarithm to use so I am going to use X as a placeholder.
That leaves the following function to describe how much space is needed for the shield emitters:
Equipment needed for Emitters = Thickness * Area * Scale ^ )Logx(Stärke)
I am not going into cost and focus on the size of the equipment.The central part of a shield is he generator. It is most likely a glorified capacitor or an array of those. I can not explain how those work or if they are still working the same way in 2170+. To make it easy (and most likely false) asume that all the other parts that determine the strength of the shield scale in efficenty exportential to their size. That way we can describe it as the SquareRoot to Strength: Root(Strength)
How big is that? I don't know. I only know that it can fit into an infantery hardsuit. For the moment place the variable Scale that lineary influence Root(Strength).
For the shield strength we have now:
Equipment needed for shield strength = Scale * Root(Strength)
Now we still need the logistic of distributing the energy. That will most likely Scale lineary to the size of the systeme projecting the shield. How big that is can be guessed on the Volume of the projected shield.
For the distribution of energy we have the following function:
Equipment needed for Distribution of energy = Scale * Volume
But how to calculate them?
Lets take the assumption that a readnought is similar protected against its own weapon as an soldier is protected against infantry weapons.
The spinal MA is rated with 38 kilotonnes TNT per shoot. That are 158,992,000,000,000 Jules of energy.
I dont know how strong infantery weapons in ME are but scince they seem to work similar enough to "modern" weapons with recoil and all I am going to take those as a base.
Caliber 5,56 × 45 mm NATO rounds sports 1,800 Jules of energy.
There is a massive difference in zeros...
If your common soldier has a defence rating of 1 a dreadnaught would have a rating of 88,328,888,889.
What we "know" as well is how much equipment they are using. We even have 3 date points.
Soldier= Def:1 ; Equipment:0,01m³ (rougly 10 litre for hardsuit)
Hulk Buster Idea= Dreadnaught(88,328,888,889) ; Equipment:240m³ (as stated by Hoyr the volume taken by two tanks)
Dreadnaught= Def:88,328,888,889 ; Equipment: rougly 10% of its room (aproximate 392,699,082m³ total size point to 39,269,908.2m³ for the shield)
Lets put in the numbers we know for a soldier:
0,01m³ Equipment = Thickness * Area * Scale1 ^ Logx(Strength) + Scale2 * Root(Strength) + Scale3 * Volume
We know already Strength (rated 1) and we can calculate Area and Volume if we handle the soldiers shieldbubble as a ball with radius of 1 meter.
How does it looks now:
0,01m³ Equipment = Thickness * 12.57m² * Scale1 ^ Logx( 1 ) + Scale2 * Root( 1 ) + Scale3 * 3.14m³
And now we have five variables that are unknown.
The next step had nothing to do with math but lots of testing in Excel until the results came close to the three date points above. Here what came as close as I have managed:
Thickness = 0.004
Scale1 = 1.25
x = 1.75
Scale2 = 0.000009
Scale3 = 0.0015
The complete formular can than be solved to avaiable space for equipment, planned shield strength or radius of shielded area.
Equipment = 0.0004 * Area * 1.25 ^ Log1.75(strength) + 0.000009 * Root(strength) + 0.0015 * Volume