- Location
- The Sea of Souls
It's fine to pick for non gameplay reasons too. Draupadi is, from my google fu, the only mythological character in ANY mythos that actually has a reverse harem. And Urvashi has some... colorful myths associated with her.
Persona: HEAVEN (Persona/Sword Art Online/Isekai Multicross)
ThatGuyWithIdeas
Treize died for our sins
- Location
- Romania
Tempted to go for Urvashi here as the fusion result. While Draupadi does keep access to Fire magic and would allow us to save upgrade points on getting the Release Recollection (since Draupadi's Enhance Armament has mostly the same role as Shakuntala's/Urvashi's Release Recollection), it also has a less optimized statline (Shakuntala is focused on magic attacks, so high Strength isn't as important and it does nothing to raise our AGI). And Urvashi's Concealment would be a nice ability to have, as it keep attention off us and makes it harder for attacks that could still come our way to hit us. I'll wait and see if other people want to chime in on which fusion to go for before I actually vote.
Ferb_Ancos
The one under the table
- Pronouns
- He
[X] Draupadi
It has Charm protection already unlocked in the Armament so I will go with it.
It has Charm protection already unlocked in the Armament so I will go with it.
ThatGuyWithIdeas
Treize died for our sins
- Location
- Romania
[X] Urvashi
While having to use points to get Release Recollection will limit our upgrade capabilities somewhat, the RR for Urvashi is still a more effective anti-mental status effect tehnique, so long as we keep it alive as much as possible (and, as I've said earlier, Draupadi mostly boosts Shakuntala's less useful stats, aka STR and VIT, so any points we're saving on not getting the RR for Draupadi are instead going for stat boosts in MAG, AGI and/or CHT)
While having to use points to get Release Recollection will limit our upgrade capabilities somewhat, the RR for Urvashi is still a more effective anti-mental status effect tehnique, so long as we keep it alive as much as possible (and, as I've said earlier, Draupadi mostly boosts Shakuntala's less useful stats, aka STR and VIT, so any points we're saving on not getting the RR for Draupadi are instead going for stat boosts in MAG, AGI and/or CHT)
- Location
- USA
[X] Urvashi
[X] Urvashi
I mean, going for the ability to literally emasculate OBERON is too tempting.
I mean, going for the ability to literally emasculate OBERON is too tempting.
Underdog Emiya
God-Emperor of Underkind
- Location
- Brazil
- Pronouns
- He
[X] Urvashi
- Location
- United States
I want this both to lean more towards the destruction of fantasy, and because the chance to both protect our allies from charm and smack Oberon with spurning is too good
[x] Urvashi
[x] Urvashi
[X] Urvashi
Comes with innate Charm resistance and I admit I forget how many points we get from a rankup (2, IIRC), but buying the Release Recollection shouldn't be too bad I think. The biggest thing we miss out on from Draupadi is the CHT buff skill but alas. We could also spam Charm resistance until we deplete our SP but if we can protect the orb with Urvashi we can achieve a similar effect.
Comes with innate Charm resistance and I admit I forget how many points we get from a rankup (2, IIRC), but buying the Release Recollection shouldn't be too bad I think. The biggest thing we miss out on from Draupadi is the CHT buff skill but alas. We could also spam Charm resistance until we deplete our SP but if we can protect the orb with Urvashi we can achieve a similar effect.
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- Location
- The Z-Cave
You've definitely become a lot more motivated than you used to be, Hiyori.
Actually, our goal in life is to completely crash the VRMMO market so we're really the enemy of otaku everywhere!
Yeah, misery doesn't build character but at the same time, Bakarina doesn't want to engage with anything in life more complicated than fluff.
I ultimately find this a fallacious arguement, Philemon, in the original story Katarina was overwritten by a completely different person so did Katarina really get love or was she just replaced by someone more likable?
Don't worry, Nyarlathotep I'm with you every step of the way, these aren't even Lostbelts, they're hollow shadows that need to be burnt away.
But at the same time, your argument is in the end, a half-truth.
[X] Urvashi
But yeah, I'm in Nyarlathotep's corner, down with HEAVEN and all that and I think he would find it very satisfying if we used Philemon's gift to destroy her work and our SUN Persona have always been used as generalists over specialized beat sticks so Release Recollection seems like the best buy. We have other Persona who can pick up the slack elsewhere.
Anyway, how many upgrade points do we have now? I checked and we had 5 Free Points and 2 Devil Points before the Norn battle and we've done a lot of stuff since then.
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- Location
- The Sea of Souls
It's on the to do list, ie I still have to math it out. Gonna do one last big upgrade vote just before the raid.
We're about to make the Faerie King into the Fisher King.
Off with his $&@*%!
[x] Urvashi
Off with his $&@*%!
[x] Urvashi
- Location
- England, unfortunately.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I mean since this is a SMT Law/Order deal, I'm pretty sure we need to balance between the two halves for something approaching a golden ending.
People need something to aspire towards, but you can't just neglect reality in pursuit of your dreams. Likewise, the cruely of reality needs to be known, but unless you can escape even for a moment, you cannot imagine it as something other than itself.
[X] Urvashi
Think we need to lean a little more towards Harsh Reality atm. Will redress the scales as we need to as the story progresses.
People need something to aspire towards, but you can't just neglect reality in pursuit of your dreams. Likewise, the cruely of reality needs to be known, but unless you can escape even for a moment, you cannot imagine it as something other than itself.
[X] Urvashi
Think we need to lean a little more towards Harsh Reality atm. Will redress the scales as we need to as the story progresses.
Nyarlathoteps belief is that This is The Best of All Possible Worlds. And - and this I think is the kicker here - that wanting something more within it, wanting it to be different is wrong.
Because that would be wanting a different world, you see. Wanting something that doesn't exist, and is thus not real. Nyarly sees growth as accepting that reality, but not changing it.
Philemon believes that humanity must strive towards and achieve that heaven, but in doing so places achieving that dream over much else. People shall achieve all their hearts desires... but will it satisfy?
It can't. It's like dream food. The old myths are all about how if you eat it you'll never wake up, but I remember eating food in my dreams. There's nothing. It's like eating air. Dreams that aren't built on reality cannot nourish someone.
Nyarlys way ends up in a world of endless rot and apathy. See the cruelty, the pain, the flaws, but never ever dream of fixing them. Philemons way is a world of illusion and mist - Have everything you're heart desires, and wonder why it never feels enough, as your body begins to starve.
The answer, of course, is the most human of them all - To eternally strive towards heaven within reality, with no shortcuts or wishes or instant gratification - No Truck-Kun to whisk you away to the fantasy of your dreams.
Inevitably, you will never quite reach what you envisioned, the flaws of reality preventing you taking the easy road. And yet, things will change. You will meet new people, learn new skills, be forced to reckon with your flaws, and you will grow because you have a goal to strive for. You shall never reach HEAVEN - But you might just find a Heaven On Earth.
Because that would be wanting a different world, you see. Wanting something that doesn't exist, and is thus not real. Nyarly sees growth as accepting that reality, but not changing it.
Philemon believes that humanity must strive towards and achieve that heaven, but in doing so places achieving that dream over much else. People shall achieve all their hearts desires... but will it satisfy?
It can't. It's like dream food. The old myths are all about how if you eat it you'll never wake up, but I remember eating food in my dreams. There's nothing. It's like eating air. Dreams that aren't built on reality cannot nourish someone.
Nyarlys way ends up in a world of endless rot and apathy. See the cruelty, the pain, the flaws, but never ever dream of fixing them. Philemons way is a world of illusion and mist - Have everything you're heart desires, and wonder why it never feels enough, as your body begins to starve.
The answer, of course, is the most human of them all - To eternally strive towards heaven within reality, with no shortcuts or wishes or instant gratification - No Truck-Kun to whisk you away to the fantasy of your dreams.
Inevitably, you will never quite reach what you envisioned, the flaws of reality preventing you taking the easy road. And yet, things will change. You will meet new people, learn new skills, be forced to reckon with your flaws, and you will grow because you have a goal to strive for. You shall never reach HEAVEN - But you might just find a Heaven On Earth.
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Winged One
Not the Simurgh
- Location
- definitely the ground
- Pronouns
- They/Them/It
Thematically, I kind of dislike how this quest places escapism(my own vice of choice) on the same level of evil as death, lies, and hierarchy.
[X] Draupadi
...I want to meet with her in VRMMOs now, solely so she can eventually find out that we totally fucking deflected here so we didn't have to admit we're a mahou shoujou in VR.
[X] Draupadi
[X] Urvashi
Underdog Emiya
God-Emperor of Underkind
- Location
- Brazil
- Pronouns
- He
I mean, my feelings over the matter is that this quest surely puts escapism in a bad place, but we can't really blame Lux for that vision. She barely got out of a false world created by a "mad god," and when she leaves, the world is different and there's this big fucking tree that is created by another false world -except more fantasy-like and the ruler of that place is somehow a bigger jackass than Kayaba, who at least had a twisted sense of fairness.
It also picks from the themes of Royal and the whole false world saga. Considering the first post of this thread, I will be absolutely not surprised if we ever cross paths with Maruki.
...though this makes me wonder if we'll ever learn of the Phantom Thieves final fate.
99% sure he was the taxi driver who brought us to our apartment at the very start of the quest. Though I assume you mean crossing paths with him in a more significant way. I'm not so sure we will, but we could given his connection to Kayaba here.
Underdog Emiya
God-Emperor of Underkind
- Location
- Brazil
- Pronouns
- He
Yeah, like that. Although, talking further about the earlier posts...
Who is the true enemy here? It certainly can't be Maruki -at least not yet -as his world would be way smoother than this. Kayaba has something in here judging by the STAR sidestory, but we can't understand what he wants yet. But, by the first post, the PT seemingly falled against Yaldabaoth...yet, he would benefit more from keeping the world like that.
Is it Nyarlatothep? Philemon? ETTEILA itself?
Maybe it's too early to make these questions considering we are still at the equivalent of Kamoshida's palace progression-wise, but my curiosity knows no bounds. What are your theories?
Well, people have been throwing around the antagonist AI from Underworld as the one pulling the strings given that a 'she' is mentioned when Philemon and ETTEILA talk about how Enhance Armaments and Release Recollections aren't...exactly how a Persona was meant to be used.
- Location
- England, unfortunately.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Eh, I'd say it's less escapism and more...
Easy escapism. Escapism without ever wanting to leave. Escapism that refuses to learn anything in escaping.
Like... imagine tasting something delicious in VR. Healthy escapism would be learning how to make it yourself in real life, which is hard and difficult and starts out imperfect and might never quite be as good as computerised perfection, but it's yours, and it's real - you can eat it and it will give you nourishment. Escapsim giving you motivation to grow as a person.
Unhealthy escapism is deciding that since the fastest method is right there, to simply keep eating it in the VR world... but it's never going to actually make you full, just convince you that you aren't starving. By the end of your VR binge, you're hungrier than before and nothing has changed.
Not to say Nyarly is all right. He's clearly against ALL forms of escapism instead of just the unhealthy ones. Nyarly wouldn't want you to decide to try to make it yourself, he'd demand that you simply accept how things are. That you can't make it, so you shouldn't try to learn how to make it, and just accept your flaws in being unable to. Which can be a healthy mindset for some things, but taken to extremes, it's just as bad as the HEAVEN's.
Like I said - Shin Megami Tensei Law/Chaos paths instead of Good/Evil.
No?
Yaldy got Headshot by Satanael.
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My understanding is that Persona 5 Royal played out as canon. The Phantom Thieves defeated Yaldabaoth and Maruki back in 2016-2017. This is pretty strongly implied in Kayaba's Persona Awakening in the very first post. (Comments in Yellow my own annotation)
January 31, 2010: SEES defeats Nyx
March 31, 2011: SEES probably defeats Erebus. (Depends on Answer's canonically to the quest, but probably doesn't matter)
March 12, 2012: Investigation Team defeats Izanami.
December 24, 2016: Phantom Thieves defeat Yaldabaoth
February 3, 2017: Phantom Thieves defeat Maruki
November 6, 2022: SAO official launch. Hiyori and 10,000 other players are trapped in the Death Game by Kayaba
November 7, 2024: Kirito defeats Kayaba on SAO Floor 75. SAO is cleared.
April 6, 2025: Hiyori arrives in Tokyo
All of those are the canon dates in their respective franchises and there's no particular reason to think they are altered, though if you want to be strict only December 24th, 2016 being the day Yaldabaoth engulfs Tokyo in the Qliphoth World and is subsequently defeated is confirmed quest canon.
Per the Kirito/STAR sidestory we can glean a few details on what Kayaba was doing afterwards. SAO appears to have been a proof of concept test on Kayaba's part to test the HEAVEN system as well as the final step in developing the World Seed to its final form. Notably, different from canon, Kayaba states he did not disable his GM protections but states that Cardinal overruled him and seemingly decided his losing made for a better conclusion, so Kayaba at least had intended to run SAO up to Floor 100.
He also explains a bit about the HEAVEN system. He states that the worlds created/governed by Cardinal select a "Chosen" or "Main Character" and creates a personal HEAVEN for them. He directed Cardinal to have that be him for SAO originally, but by Floor 50 he got bored, relinquished it, and told Cardinal to pick whoever it deemed most worthy. He thought it would select Asuna but it instead picked Kirito.
Now to tie this into "who's the real final enemy here?" I'd definitely say Quinella/Administrator is in the lead precisely because of Kayaba's explanation there. I forget how much of this I mentioned in one of our previous Administrator discussions so I'll just be safe and mention it all again, even if some or even all might be a repeat:
Anyway, whether you read the stuff in the spoiler block or not, the major takeaway for me is that the Cardinal System is the one calling the shots in HEAVEN and there's a very good chance Administrator has taken over Cardinal and hence might be the real final boss/beyond even Kayaba. The question though becomes did she only take over Underworld's Cardinal or did she somehow springboard from there and get a foothold of sorts in all HEAVENs? We have evidence from ALO to suggest she has a connection there if nothing else.
This is a rough timeline I'm operating off of:
January 31, 2010: SEES defeats Nyx
March 31, 2011: SEES probably defeats Erebus. (Depends on Answer's canonically to the quest, but probably doesn't matter)
March 12, 2012: Investigation Team defeats Izanami.
December 24, 2016: Phantom Thieves defeat Yaldabaoth
February 3, 2017: Phantom Thieves defeat Maruki
November 6, 2022: SAO official launch. Hiyori and 10,000 other players are trapped in the Death Game by Kayaba
November 7, 2024: Kirito defeats Kayaba on SAO Floor 75. SAO is cleared.
April 6, 2025: Hiyori arrives in Tokyo
All of those are the canon dates in their respective franchises and there's no particular reason to think they are altered, though if you want to be strict only December 24th, 2016 being the day Yaldabaoth engulfs Tokyo in the Qliphoth World and is subsequently defeated is confirmed quest canon.
Per the Kirito/STAR sidestory we can glean a few details on what Kayaba was doing afterwards. SAO appears to have been a proof of concept test on Kayaba's part to test the HEAVEN system as well as the final step in developing the World Seed to its final form. Notably, different from canon, Kayaba states he did not disable his GM protections but states that Cardinal overruled him and seemingly decided his losing made for a better conclusion, so Kayaba at least had intended to run SAO up to Floor 100.
He also explains a bit about the HEAVEN system. He states that the worlds created/governed by Cardinal select a "Chosen" or "Main Character" and creates a personal HEAVEN for them. He directed Cardinal to have that be him for SAO originally, but by Floor 50 he got bored, relinquished it, and told Cardinal to pick whoever it deemed most worthy. He thought it would select Asuna but it instead picked Kirito.
Now to tie this into "who's the real final enemy here?" I'd definitely say Quinella/Administrator is in the lead precisely because of Kayaba's explanation there. I forget how much of this I mentioned in one of our previous Administrator discussions so I'll just be safe and mention it all again, even if some or even all might be a repeat:
In canon SAO, Quinella was an resident AI in RATH's Underworld. The role she was given within Underworld was to basically to study magic, which in Underworld took the form of System Commands ("Generate Thermal Element" basically being "Summon Fireball," etc.) Only she managed to stumble on the System Command for "List All Valid System Commands" along with accidentally discovering that killing other living beings got you EXP (and allowed you to use more powerful commands.) Being the only one in possession of both these pieces of information she quickly amassed an incredible amount of power and authority. Enough so that she managed to absorb/take over Cardinal itself to set herself up as a Goddess. (Cardinal, for its part, "rebelled" when its error correction subroutines designated Quinella itself as an error because Cardinal wasn't supposed to interfere so directly with Underworld as Quinella was doing. This manifested as it managing to briefly take over Quinella when she was emotional and trying to kill her. Quinella regained control each time so it failed, but she noticed the pattern and sealed her emotions to stop it.)
Then later since Quinella was now functionally immortal she started running into the new problem that Fluctlights have a memory limit and she was about to hit it. Her solution was to grab another resident and basically turn her into an external hard drive and dump her excess memories in her. She succeeds, but runs into the problem Cayna outlined about how you can't copy someone's Fluctlight. Quinella and the person she dumped her memory backup in both recognized each other as the same now that Quinella overwrote their Fluctlight and they both started breaking down. The other person broke first however, which allowed that Cardinal subroutine to take over them. This stabilized both Fluctlights since they now saw one another as "Quinella" and "Cardinal" but gave Quinella an enemy of roughly equal stats. She managed to chase Cardinal off but because this reintroduced the memory limit problem she mostly limited herself to sleeping from then on after shoring up her rule in order to limit the amount of new memories she would create (and reach the limit.) Cardinal meanwhile continued to plot to defeat Quinella/Administrator. In canon she eventually contacts Kirito and assists him.
Then later since Quinella was now functionally immortal she started running into the new problem that Fluctlights have a memory limit and she was about to hit it. Her solution was to grab another resident and basically turn her into an external hard drive and dump her excess memories in her. She succeeds, but runs into the problem Cayna outlined about how you can't copy someone's Fluctlight. Quinella and the person she dumped her memory backup in both recognized each other as the same now that Quinella overwrote their Fluctlight and they both started breaking down. The other person broke first however, which allowed that Cardinal subroutine to take over them. This stabilized both Fluctlights since they now saw one another as "Quinella" and "Cardinal" but gave Quinella an enemy of roughly equal stats. She managed to chase Cardinal off but because this reintroduced the memory limit problem she mostly limited herself to sleeping from then on after shoring up her rule in order to limit the amount of new memories she would create (and reach the limit.) Cardinal meanwhile continued to plot to defeat Quinella/Administrator. In canon she eventually contacts Kirito and assists him.
Anyway, whether you read the stuff in the spoiler block or not, the major takeaway for me is that the Cardinal System is the one calling the shots in HEAVEN and there's a very good chance Administrator has taken over Cardinal and hence might be the real final boss/beyond even Kayaba. The question though becomes did she only take over Underworld's Cardinal or did she somehow springboard from there and get a foothold of sorts in all HEAVENs? We have evidence from ALO to suggest she has a connection there if nothing else.
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- Location
- The Sea of Souls
No lie, if there was like a FullDive VR thing IRL? That would totally ruin me. Plug me in and never let me out!
But yeah, this whole quest is about the concept of 'isekai', and sort of tackling it with the blunt bat approach of Persona games. (ove Persona games but subtle they are not. Like in P3 how like 90% of everyone parents are either dead or deadbeats, including the dog!
(Actual impetus for this quest: lol let's un-isekai isekai protags, and why the hell did they cancel Isekai Cheat Slayer? That idea was fire. The name Don Will Dead has lived in my head rent-free for years.)
I'm keeping a few things close to the chest but this is actually just due to awkward phrasing on my part. The intention is that the events of the mainline Persona games have all taken place in the past as depicted in the game, and 99% of the SAO Incident occurred as depicted in the show (w/ exception to the very end).