CHAOS 2 is indeed the most sympathetic that Nyarlathotep is portrayed, and you're right, saying he's "just" a caricatured nihilist was going too far on my part, though I said that in the sense of him misrepresenting the worst sides of human nature than as a character fla - but much of it comes off to me as the sentiment of a parent sad/melancholy/upset that a child is leaving the nest - a sentiment that, ironically enough, he excoriates Hiyori's Mom for in the Rank 3 selection.
Humanity has won the best, ETTEILLA says it directly himself - that humanity has reached enlightenment and the power to create worlds. I think we have to at the very least take them at their word here that that has happened. I guess there could be a twist that PHILEMON winning the bet is not related to Kayaba and the HEAVENs and that actually that's a swerve that PHILEMON is just cool with letting happen.
But MAXWELL (and ETTEILLA) both describe the current problem facing the Sea of Souls as different in nature to those - which is why I think characterizing the HEAVEN situation as the Persona gods/concept rising faster is incorrect. That's not quite what's happening here. HEAVEN Chosen/rulers are very much not conceptual ideas or natural laws given form. OBERON was not the anthropomorphic avatar of desire or even lust - even if he himself demonstrated those traits. The threat they present to the Sea of Souls is that they can leave it and the Sea derives its power from being a collective. If humanity can now truly create their own worlds with their own rules and leave the old one behind they no longer need to band together and form that collective. With no collective anymore, the Sea of Souls will collapse because there is no longer a collective unconscious. But this begs the question - is the collective unconscious necessary? Honestly, I think it may be impossible to truly comprehend such a state or world because well - in the real world that just isn't really a thing for the most part, "no man is an island," etc. etc. And since we've all only known such a world I think it's natural we'd be protective/defensive of it and the values it naturally instills in us... but if we propose, hypothetically, that it is no longer necessary... would that be objectively wrong?
It's kind of the opposite answer of Evangelion's Human Instrumentality. Instead of "solving" the problem of individual humans being incomplete by forcing them to assimilate into a single supposedly "complete" being - the concept here appears to be "What if each individual human could craft a custom world for themselves that fills in what they are missing and thereby become complete?" Both are completely fanciful ideas so it's kinda impossible to assess the value in them because they're complete fantasy but as a thought experiment I think it's a lot more complex than simply concluding it to be a dead end - and I say this as someone who spent most of the quest's life actually believing just that.
To put it in Nasuverse terms, the vibe I get from CHAOS 2 there is very similar to how Gaia reacts very poorly to the idea of humanity being able to survive without it. If humans truly transcend themselves - becoming creators able to stand individually and thus dissolve the collective to strike out on their own... well they're no longer human are they? They will leave behind the collective unconsciousness and all that it birthed and create new worlds with, as MAXWELL states, their own myths and Logos.
In this sense, I don't think Nyarlathotep is lying to us. The potential of humanity will end because what they will become will no longer be human. There probably is more potential to be found in humanity as it is currently constructed, he's right. But I don't think that's the same as saying they will stagnate as I once believed. What it will be is different and in a way that we can't articulate or comprehend. Better? Worse? Impossible to say. Certainly from a human perspective it would probably come off as worse and I actually think that adds a new shade this conflict that's interesting. With Nyarlathotep embodying a kind of yearning nostalgia we would probably have been unlikely to associate with him because that's a sentiment that is probably thought of as positive and comforting but depending on the context can also be seen as restricting and fearful if used a reason to hesitate to move to try something new. (Of course, that's not to say that at times "something new" isn't also something you also shouldn't do just for the sake of it being something new but it's a different frame of reference to look at it.)
I'm also rubbed the wrong way by Nyarlathotep speaking of "And as if that perversion was not enough, you humans have diluted the sea of souls with disgusting creations I can scarcely fathom. Constructs and abominations without an ounce of humanity, yet blessed with the power to dream, created in such numbers they have polluted the roots of creation itself." Unless I'm misreading him here, he's speaking of AI and NPCs... and that strikes me as a very close-minded way of thinking about that - but one that lines up with Nyarlathotep's aversion of humans becoming entities able to truly create.
Mind you, I say all this to state that I think both PHILEMON and Nyarlathotep have fairly consistent philosophies that they are demonstrating. It just so happens that Nyarlathotep is generally advocating a more familiar and relatable one in a lot of the Rank Selection choices because circumstances have placed him on the "keep humanity as it's always been" side of things and well... that's the side we're all on so it's a lot easier to digest that. And I'm not saying that because I think Nyarlathotep's primary driver is largely nihilism that he's always wrong - I find his pitch in this current vote for COIN 3 to be the stronger of the two! But I also don't think he's a friend, that is true. MAXWELL says we can be "allies of convenience" and I think that's an accurate take on how the relationship should be viewed.
Humanity has won the best, ETTEILLA says it directly himself - that humanity has reached enlightenment and the power to create worlds. I think we have to at the very least take them at their word here that that has happened. I guess there could be a twist that PHILEMON winning the bet is not related to Kayaba and the HEAVENs and that actually that's a swerve that PHILEMON is just cool with letting happen.
I think what MAXWELL is describing here is that humanity is leaving the cradle so to speak. Until now they have been subservient to the world, forced to obey the natural laws - they did so by banding together and thereby forming a shared collective. Where they could not survive alone they did so together, and flourished. However, they were still ultimately subject to the restraints of the world - death, truth, control, desire. Occasionally friction between one of those concepts with the human collective unconscious would build to a point where the concept took a form that could directly effect the real world - Nyx, Izanami, Yaldabaoth but mankind managed to overcome it and return things to how they were. They were a threat born of the anxiety of the human collective unconscious and their threat to the Sea of Souls was in altering the human collective - Nyx would have put the world into Apathy Syndrome, Izanami would have eliminated truth and objectivity and blurred the lines of self-realization and perception, Yaldabaoth would have eliminated free will. These would threaten the Sea of Souls because it would transform the thinking of humanity and - at least in the cases of Nyx and Yaldabaoth - essentially immediately cause a kind of mental heat death where the human collective unconsciousness would become a uniform background radiation - the ultimate outcome of entropy - in a near instant. If the Sea of Souls could even maintain its existence in that state, I don't know, but if it could it would simply remain unchanging forever. It would be a true dead end.
But MAXWELL (and ETTEILLA) both describe the current problem facing the Sea of Souls as different in nature to those - which is why I think characterizing the HEAVEN situation as the Persona gods/concept rising faster is incorrect. That's not quite what's happening here. HEAVEN Chosen/rulers are very much not conceptual ideas or natural laws given form. OBERON was not the anthropomorphic avatar of desire or even lust - even if he himself demonstrated those traits. The threat they present to the Sea of Souls is that they can leave it and the Sea derives its power from being a collective. If humanity can now truly create their own worlds with their own rules and leave the old one behind they no longer need to band together and form that collective. With no collective anymore, the Sea of Souls will collapse because there is no longer a collective unconscious. But this begs the question - is the collective unconscious necessary? Honestly, I think it may be impossible to truly comprehend such a state or world because well - in the real world that just isn't really a thing for the most part, "no man is an island," etc. etc. And since we've all only known such a world I think it's natural we'd be protective/defensive of it and the values it naturally instills in us... but if we propose, hypothetically, that it is no longer necessary... would that be objectively wrong?
It's kind of the opposite answer of Evangelion's Human Instrumentality. Instead of "solving" the problem of individual humans being incomplete by forcing them to assimilate into a single supposedly "complete" being - the concept here appears to be "What if each individual human could craft a custom world for themselves that fills in what they are missing and thereby become complete?" Both are completely fanciful ideas so it's kinda impossible to assess the value in them because they're complete fantasy but as a thought experiment I think it's a lot more complex than simply concluding it to be a dead end - and I say this as someone who spent most of the quest's life actually believing just that.
To put it in Nasuverse terms, the vibe I get from CHAOS 2 there is very similar to how Gaia reacts very poorly to the idea of humanity being able to survive without it. If humans truly transcend themselves - becoming creators able to stand individually and thus dissolve the collective to strike out on their own... well they're no longer human are they? They will leave behind the collective unconsciousness and all that it birthed and create new worlds with, as MAXWELL states, their own myths and Logos.
In this sense, I don't think Nyarlathotep is lying to us. The potential of humanity will end because what they will become will no longer be human. There probably is more potential to be found in humanity as it is currently constructed, he's right. But I don't think that's the same as saying they will stagnate as I once believed. What it will be is different and in a way that we can't articulate or comprehend. Better? Worse? Impossible to say. Certainly from a human perspective it would probably come off as worse and I actually think that adds a new shade this conflict that's interesting. With Nyarlathotep embodying a kind of yearning nostalgia we would probably have been unlikely to associate with him because that's a sentiment that is probably thought of as positive and comforting but depending on the context can also be seen as restricting and fearful if used a reason to hesitate to move to try something new. (Of course, that's not to say that at times "something new" isn't also something you also shouldn't do just for the sake of it being something new but it's a different frame of reference to look at it.)
I'm also rubbed the wrong way by Nyarlathotep speaking of "And as if that perversion was not enough, you humans have diluted the sea of souls with disgusting creations I can scarcely fathom. Constructs and abominations without an ounce of humanity, yet blessed with the power to dream, created in such numbers they have polluted the roots of creation itself." Unless I'm misreading him here, he's speaking of AI and NPCs... and that strikes me as a very close-minded way of thinking about that - but one that lines up with Nyarlathotep's aversion of humans becoming entities able to truly create.
Mind you, I say all this to state that I think both PHILEMON and Nyarlathotep have fairly consistent philosophies that they are demonstrating. It just so happens that Nyarlathotep is generally advocating a more familiar and relatable one in a lot of the Rank Selection choices because circumstances have placed him on the "keep humanity as it's always been" side of things and well... that's the side we're all on so it's a lot easier to digest that. And I'm not saying that because I think Nyarlathotep's primary driver is largely nihilism that he's always wrong - I find his pitch in this current vote for COIN 3 to be the stronger of the two! But I also don't think he's a friend, that is true. MAXWELL says we can be "allies of convenience" and I think that's an accurate take on how the relationship should be viewed.
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