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Persona: HEAVEN (Persona/Sword Art Online/Isekai Multicross)

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The Zog said:
This is from the Seven Bullets Interlude and now really important.

This entire update is about both of us telling the truth and Lugh is...as he understands it. He's flipping things around, there Miller implies that Glowgen is working for Quinella and she wants their help killing Yui and here he tells us the exact opposite.
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Redsoff said:
Wasn't the whole "Glowgen infiltrates the Underworld" part of a Yanai plot in canon? Here he might be in cahoots with Administrator.

He was trying to get Asuna and Sugou there too...
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*Loud note shuffling noises in the background*

Ah crap.


​
Okay, I might've mixed up my foreshadowing notes. Been a while since I revisited the UW plot, so some details escaped my mind. I think at the start of the arc the main UW conflict wasn't crystallized yet, so I thought I had foreshadowed that Glowgen was working against Quinella, but apparently, I did the exact opposite.

Lugh isn't trying to trick you here, QM just got his details mixed up. Okay. Gonna have to make some mild retcons here since some wires got crossed.

This is the intended setup:

Glowgen is hired by MYSTERIOUS BACKER X to kill Administrator. The God that Lugh is looking to kill is explicitly Administrator.
Administrator has her own agents in the Real World seeking to carry out her own plan (ie, Yanai).
Yanai and Glowgen are not working together (Yanai is working with someone in GGO but it's not Glowgen).

Only retcon is going to change Gabe's comment in the earlier chapter to be more in line with this.

Sorry, I try not to do anything like this, but if Glowgen is working FOR Administrator this tanks my entire planned plot structure. This is legit me forgetting I even foreshadowed this before.
 
That settles things for me then. Our canon knowledge is becoming more useless the more the metaplot comes into focus and having our own way in to the Underworld early is good.

[X] Promise him GGO's SEED. [TRUTH]

Maybe Yui's the one who hired Miller if Pete got his notes mixed up? :V
 
[X] Zatoichi

[X] Promise him GGO's SEED. [TRUTH]

I like Lugh's honesty and we nominally have the same goal, so I think we should work with him on this in good faith.

Not giving him the benefit of justifying his Heaven though.
 
I don't think you'll be able to convince Lievre to betray Miller. I suppose you could sell it as convincing her to do everything herself in order to impress Miller.
 
The Zog said:
I don't get you're not more suspicious of PHILEMON here. ETTEILLA at least has a consistent and comprehensive ideology while Phil just lies her ass off to justify any HEAVEN no matter how hypocritical she is.
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Right, but ETTEILLA's consistent and comprehensive ideology is just this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwVNuyfhF0Q
It's not hard to see why people might be put off by that.

End of the day, this isn't a good-and-evil conflict--it's barely even a lesser-evil-and-greater-evil conflict. It's two different kinds of devil, the tempter and the despairer.
 
DrWalpurgisnacht said:
Right, but ETTEILLA's consistent and comprehensive ideology is just this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwVNuyfhF0Q
It's not hard to see why people might be put off by that.

End of the day, this isn't a good-and-evil conflict--it's barely even a lesser-evil-and-greater-evil conflict. It's two different kinds of devil, the tempter and the despairer.
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Not really ETTEILLA's main ideology for people like Shiroe, Subaru, Motosu, Mitsuha, and Yakutani are 'accomplish your dreams in the real world' (and for Subaru and Yakutani they won't horribly torture themselves) and for people like Mikami, Satoru, Lugh, Rudy are 'your dreams are fucking awful, go home and rethink your lives'. With the added caveat for Lugh and Rudy to be to improve yourself in the real world so it will actually mean something.
 
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[X] Zatoichi
[X] Promise him GGO's SEED. [TRUTH]

This is going to have consequences, but I feel like they're the ones Hiyori has the best chance of mitigating later on.
 
I feel a little bad for Shirogane but I'm glad he was there considering his ties to Project ALICIZATION. It makes it much easier to get him on board going forward.

The Crimson King said:
To kill is to kill. Never forget that.
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Agreed.
[X] Zatoichi

theguynamedwafer said:
[X] Write-in: Insurance Policy
-Have Lugh inform Lievre the Edge Punisher is willing to talk, but ONLY to Lievre for now
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If we're going to reveal ourselves as the Edge Punisher later ([Throw Your Mask Away] Action), this doesn't give us any advantage we can't get elsewhere.

I'm wary of letting anyone in this setting have the Seed AI, I'm concerned it has significantly more of it's own INTENT then just being the basis for HEAVEN VR. If allowed it could easily turn into an EMMA AI situation from P5S. An artifical Demiurge of a final boss.

Therefore:
[X] Promise him nothing.

DrWalpurgisnacht said:
End of the day, this isn't a good-and-evil conflict--it's barely even a lesser-evil-and-greater-evil conflict. It's two different kinds of devil, the tempter and the despairer.
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Fundamentally this reads as an escapism conflict. PHILEMON is championing "The Comforting Falsehood" while ETTEILLA is backing "The Painful Reality". ETTEILLA is motivated by self interest and other bad reasons, but they're more in the right here than PHILEMON.

Also as beings driven by rules, while I wouldn't necessarily trust everything ETTEILLA says at face value, I would absolutely trust them to uphold a deal to the letter.
 
So, I was re-reading some of the PHILEMON/ETTEILLA dialogue (though not all of it, so I may be overlooking some things) in the wake of this discussion and I think we may have had things a bit wrong in terms of what's going on.

I think the most clear reading of PHILEMON's motives comes when they're arguing with each other in front of us when putting the choice to fuse with our shadow or split (TRAITOR 3.) The most instructive snippet IMO is probably the following:

The fate of man is evolution. To achieve enlightenment with yourself, then to seek the same in the world.

There is no fate. There is only what is.

Humanity seeks creation. Apocatastasis. An ever more perfect union. Once they were FOOLS, venturing forth with no end in sight, seeking naught but the next day and the challenges that await. But this meagre existence is not the end of Humanity's journey. For at the end of the unbeaten path lies the new WORLD. Ones forged by the hands of humanity itself.

Humanity seeks destruction. Apocalypse. It is all they have every known, all they have ever accomplished. They arise from CHAOS and they breed, kill, and suffer. There is no purpose. There is no answer. There is only the now, there is only this existence. True wisdom lies with the FOOL who laughs at the absurdity of this truth.
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PHILEMON, then, I think is advocating that humanity has a purpose and that purpose is evolution to a new state of being. Essentially, they're advocating for transhumanism. I think this is backed by a number of things we can pull from what we've heard from them directly and even from ETTEILLA. We know that as of the start of the quest that PHILEMON has won the bet they had (presumably the Persona 2 bet) and had discovered the means to ascend from humans to godlike beings. The obvious translation, I think, being that Kayaba awakening to the World Seed and enabling the creation of HEAVENs is the achievement that won PHILEMON the bet as now humans could transcend the limitations placed upon them by the world. ETTEILLA tells us that absent external intervention this is a fait accompli - HEAVENs will be perfected and the old human order will fall. This, I assume, is what it means for PHILEMON to have won.

Then, for whatever reason, they struck a new bet and underwent a partial role reversal with Nyarlathotep becoming (mostly) a passive force and PHILEMON being permitted to act a bit more openly and actively. I don't think we know the terms of the new bet, but it's presumably something to the tune of "Can/Will humanity be coaxed to stop this transcendence?" I'm a bit hesitant here because it's a bit of a weird bet because it feels like the old bet but Nyarlathotep is just salty and wants one last shot at returning to the old bet that they already lost. Nevertheless, it seems to have been accepted.

Now, as for Nyarlathotep, I think it remains fairly clear they're generally a kind of caricatured nihilist - to refer to the above snippet again, their answer to PHILEMON's belief in a purpose for humanity is to bluntly state "There is no purpose." But while in and of itself that doesn't have to be a negative thing (even if it's probably the most common/popular portrayal of nihilism), I stress the caricature part (likely a result of literally being an entity of the collective unconscious) because they also have let the mask slip several times that they just enjoy watching humanity suffer. Hell, they admit as such pre-chargen when they are basically breaking the fourth wall to chat with us, the readers.

Mankind should bleed, kill and suffer.
This world of endless purgatory pleases me.
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They wish to continue the old order of suffering, secure in the belief that humanity can never rise above their worst natures - of course, for they are the anthropomorphic representation of those worst natures. They offer a common cause in advocating a belief that the old order is superior than what Kayaba will provide with the HEAVENs but their actual philosophy remains toxic because that's fundamental to their nature.

Moving to Kayaba briefly, Kayaba himself appears to have somewhat different motives than PHILEMON. In his Persona awakening he seems to have been infodumped somewhat with the plots of Persona 3-5 since he references the perils the world faced there. A plain reading could suggest that he sees a world teetering on the edge of destruction where a single failure would doom all and so has taken matters into his own hands to change the order of the world so that it's not perpetually one disaster away from ending every couple of years. However, I think it gets recontextualized in FOOL 2 (during the Kyouji fight) where Hiyori appears to see through him somewhat and it comes off more as Kayaba having a kind of hero/savior complex where he's justifying his desire to essentially be the main character of the world. Regardless of the purity of his own motives though he has stumbled upon something truly miraculous in the World Seed and a true path to a form of transhumanism and that's why PHILEMON is backing him - regardless of the man himself, he did develop a way for humans to no longer be bound to the rules the world imposes on them and to instead create worlds of their own with rules of their liking. That is a evolution in humanity - whether good or ill.

This still leaves me thinking a neutral path is best - PHILEMON seeks an evolution in humanity and having spotted one has shoved all-in on it regardless of the flaws or morality of the method - and I remain convinced that Kayaba's specific mechanics for achieving this as he himself explained to us is a grotesque injustice on a level that beggars comprehension. Nyarlathotep wants to see humanity remain in the "endless purgatory" of cruelty and suffering... it just so happens that accomplishing that requires stopping Kayaba and the HEAVENs. PHILEMON has the best intentions for humanity but is willing to permit monstrous means to achieve it. Nyarlathotep has monstrous intentions but just happens to require a grave injustice to be thwarted as Step 1. This all makes sense considering their roles as aspects of human nature writ-large ("road to hell paved with good intentions," "deal with the devil," etc.) But I don't for a second think that flat out siding with one or the other is the "right" call.
 
afreaknamedpete said:
They call out for peace at the edge of a reaper's blade. They wander through the fog, seeking the comfortable lie. They pray before the grail, asking for safety and prosperity under to aegis of a careless god. And once, I too sought to change the world through such power. To harness belief, and in doing so, bring about the destruction your pathetic existences desired.

Is it not a story you have heard before?

At times the fears of humanity coalesce into a curse, a conceptual vision of destruction that spills from one world to the next. Such threats do not form within the span of a day. Generations of anxiety and fear, centuries of anger and hatred, they build and fester. They grow in strength and saturate the sea of souls with their screams, threatening to collapse the foundations of the very world. They take on the names and monikers of gods, and our world calls forth champions to fight against those threats from the depths of humanity itself...

It is a cycle, one that has been repeated many times. And thus far humanity has yet to lose this struggle.

But now? Now it is not a curse that arises rarely.

No.

Something has changed.

It started with but one, a simple and weak individual, who dreamt of a perfect world. One where there was no suffering, no hatred, and no pain. A managed world, a counseled world. This was not the will of the masses or even the will of the few. It was his will alone, and with that single wish, he shattered the boundaries of the sea. A utopia for all created by one.

He failed, of course. But he broke down the doors for those who follow in his wake.

Humanity has always dreamed and desired to share those dreams with others. And in the process of making those dreams into reality, they struggle, they kill, they learn. Dreams become tempered, refined, and brought down to earth.

But not this time. Now humanity dreams endlessly. There is no wish too saccharine, no world too broken, no perversion too grotesque. There is no limit, no end, only boundless and ceaseless dreaming. They no longer wish to change their world. They no longer even wish to destroy it.

They simply wish to leave it.

Each dreamer, a threat on the level of all the false gods that have come before. And as if that perversion was not enough, you humans have diluted the sea of souls with disgusting creations I can scarcely fathom. Constructs and abominations without an ounce of humanity, yet blessed with the power to dream, created in such numbers they have polluted the roots of creation itself.

...

I apologize for spending our short time together complaining. It is a topic I feel very strongly about, and I had not anticipated that the subject would bring forth such intense feelings. You are wise to distrust the words of a creature such as myself, claiming to represent the interests of the world. In ways big and small, we are all simply slaves to our own desires.

So let me tell you of my own dream.

Have you wandered in the haze of the northern lands, where the forest becomes swamp and the clouds are ever grey? Have you debated the bull-man atop the rocky basin?

Have you been to the house in the country with the tulip garden? Have you met the old man who waters the flowers and speaks of secrets long forgotten?

Have you borne witness to the empty halls of the city of gods? Have you beheld the silent parade within those streets and treated with he who buries the gods in gold and gems?

The sea of souls was once like this. A morass of memories and chaos, an amalgamation of all that was, is, and will be. A thousand gods born and dead in the space of a heartbeat, and in the space of the next, reborn with new names. You could get lost in that haze without taking a single step. One moment a lush forest, the next, a barren desert. I have met these dreamers, contractor. I knew their tales. To some I provided guidance. To others, I led to their doom. And to some, I was an adversary, to be conquered and vanquished.

It was a beautiful place.

But now I do not see my land of dreams. I see gardens, playgrounds, and cities of silicon. I see dreams solidifying, becoming real, persisting night after night. Growing, refining, but never dying. I see a sea of souls that has lost its chaos. Its raw potential. Its...

...

Ah, this has made me nostalgic. It has been so, so long since I have spoken with a dreamer. I miss it, more than you could possibly know.

...

Now, I did not call you here just to reminisce about the past. You have decided, or perhaps you will have decided, to avail yourself of my services. This is most excellent! Why, for some time, I had feared you may have been avoiding me! Now, typically I prefer a... direct approach. But alas my current circumstances require that I must delegate. Know that I am watching you. And with this decision, I will always remain a part of you.

The Persona is the mask we construct to face the harsh realities of our world. It is not a Shadow, flitting about the edges of your mind, nor is it these dreams that seek to shatter the sea of souls. The Persona is not an accident. It is will.

It is a choice.

The power of Persona is only granted to those who accept responsibility for their choices.

You have chosen to let me in.

Thus I am now you.

And you are now me.

Today you called upon my power in your time of need.

But next time? It shall be your own power.
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I definitely think you're missing a big piece of the puzzle here. In CHAOS Rank 2 Nyarly hints to much deeper motives than caricatured nihilism and inadvertently implies that PHILEMON is the one driven by despair. According to him the Persona gods are rising faster and faster than before and with Maruki's advent it's worse than ever before. I think PHILEMON is rushing toward a one size fits all solution and is settling for what's basically bootleg solipsist Buddhism and lying her ass off even though she likely knows it won't work trying to save humanity from itself.

Here, Nyarly also acts sincere with us and goes more into his motives beyond his sadism--which is very real, I won't deny that--but he's also a muse who meets with and inspires dreamers in his own way since he's also now Ba from Jung's extra writings.

Humanity has always dreamed and desired to share those dreams with others. And in the process of making those dreams into reality, they struggle, they kill, they learn. Dreams become tempered, refined, and brought down to earth.

This is the key line here, Nyarly has no problem with following your dreams his problem is that these dreams are so shallow that they can't handle the basic stress test of reality.

And more importantly, he warns that the 'potential' of humanity is fading as it loses its 'chaos' the same chaos Philemon used against Nyarlathotep to defeat him in Persona 2. She's throwing away the cause she so once passionately championed and trying to excise it.

If that doesn't say that the HEAVENs are a dead end I don't know what does.

We're in a very special situation here, ETTEILLA is not trustworthy but we have the opportunity to turn him into a friend and ally if we play our cards right and he's shown the ability to self-reflect on his own views while PHILEMON just keeps doubling down.
 
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