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Panopticon: A Game of Posthumans, Perniciousness, Paranoia, Politics, and Plasmaguns

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@MJ12 Commando - I suspect the gap is that there are too many options. The response to Gretkov is a fully open "you are present, you can do whatever your Spheres allow, what do you do" vote - and that leads to decision paralysis. JaniceQuest has boiled down to two options, and minor variants on them.

-- or to put it another way, I have no idea how to solve Gretkov beyond a general "it'd be kind of cool to just lock him up on the spot, is that a thing we can actually do? Wish we had something like, Life 3/DSci 3 'Ward to particular body'." But I do know that I much prefer Ethos to Pathos, here.


-- Speaking of which. @Aleph - The thing is... I'm not sure how to put my thoughts into words here. I feel like Pathos is too... the closest word is general, I think. Sure, the path we took to get this far was absolutely personal to Roth, it required engaging him as a character - but at the end of Pathos is a new path that really doesn't. The steps we take after we break him under the load aren't specific to Roth, they generalize to to any sufficiently broken person who's lost all direction.

-- In other words, it removes his character from the equation and leaves him with no narrative agency. And I feel like that that literally never happening is a major theme of PQ. That you can be killed, or tortured, or fall three Enlightenment stages and lose half your memories, or turned into an evil space ghost, or just about anything else - but the decisions of Mages always matter. Even if it's just "I choose to die, would you kindly kill me."

Pathos, as written, generalizes too well. I'm wary of it.

(And also. Half of what Janice is arguing about, is that Roth is a Hard Man who makes Hard Decisions, is too willing to make the allegedly necessary sacrifice. You can make the case that one of the conflicts here, other than uneasy peace versus easy war, is precisely Gold vs. Bronze.)
 
So... are people just not seeing my Pathos write-in? Is my voting somehow so fundamentally objectionable that people would rather pretend that it's not there, even when it's already attempting to address the issues that they're bringing up? I've kind of adjusted to the idea that Panopticon is nega-world, where my voting for something makes it less likely to occur, but this seems a bit on the extreme side even for that.
 
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Sirrocco said:
So... are people just not seeing my Pathos write-in? Is my voting somehow so fundamentally objectionable that people would rather pretend that it's not there, even when it's already attempting to address the issues that they're bringing up? I've kind of adjusted to the idea that Panopticon is nega-world, where my voting for something makes it less likely to occur, but this seems a bit on the extreme side even for that.
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Sorry, I didn't notice you had one >.>. Let me look.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
Sorry, I didn't notice you had one >.>. Let me look.
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It's at the bottom of my earlier analysis post. I suppose that if it was a group tl:dr, then that makes more sense.

Sirrocco said:
[x] Pathos: Kick him off the ledge but don't let him fall. Bludgeon him with the trauma until he's forced to admit that his "goals", weakly founded as they were simply weren't worth the price, then offer him reprieve. The Traditions found out in time, and are carving out the cancer in their own ranks. The people of the island are saved, and you're hoping to save him, too. For the moment, though, perhaps he could save you? You did some pretty costly things to bring him this message, and you're kind of dying here. Men like that are always better off when they have something concrete to do, and hopefully it'll be a good symbolic start for him. It'll seal that Fate working pretty hard regardless.
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WarpObscura said:
Could you please explain this idiom? I'm not getting it.
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Exalted reference. At the end of the First Age, when the god-kings of creation had gone mad and decadent beyond imagination, their advisors cast prophecy to know how they might prevent the ruling kings from destroying creation in their madness.

The advisors found two prophecies, and split into factions regarding which should be followed.

The Gold Faction saw a risky but idealistic path forwards: they would go before their kings, present evidence of their growing madness, and trust that these omnicompetent godlings would find a cure or a solution - but this path was not guaranteed. If the rulers reacted poorly, if they rejected evidence in favor of hubris, creation was doomed to fall into darkness, and it would be worse than if the advisors had not acted at all. And the madness of the rulers meant you couldn't predict which way they'd go.

The Bronze Faction said "fuck risking all existence on a gamble." The prophecy they created was guaranteed to work, but at great cost: save Creation by killing the kings. It would be a personal betrayal, it would be bloody, and the world would be forever lessened for it - the wonders of the first age could not be replicated or repaired without the power of the kings.The Bronze Faction didn't like murdering their way into a new dark age, but they weren't willing to roll the dice for the fate of every person who would ever live.

The factions couldn't agree or compromise, and so the Bronze killed the Gold and then enacted their plan.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
Hm. I like the concept, but I kind want to see an IC implementation... then again, I might just be spoiled :V.

Also, Cross has Life 3/DSci 3. Any word on whether a "lock the monster to this body" bullet Rote is valid, or would it require Life 4? @MJ12 Commando
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That would be Corr 3/DSci 3, not Life 3/DSci 3. You might be able to do something crippling with Life 4/DSci 3 but nobody here has that.
 
Sirrocco said:
I would too... but I haven't got it in me, and @EarthScorpion is *running* this part. *He's* certainly not going to write it.
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I'm not sure Roth *can* help. Like, this is most probably the expression of a Paradox backlash for doing something seriously fucking vulgar. Janice has Mind 4. If this was something that could be fixed with Mind she would have probably dealt with it already.

Even if he could help he has to grok the problem through his paradigm, and the problem here is "I drew too heavily upon the knowledge and memories of my past life, now I'm losing my sense of self".
 
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MJ12 Commando said:
That would be Corr 3/DSci 3, not Life 3/DSci 3. You might be able to do something crippling with Life 4/DSci 3 but nobody here has that.
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Given that Gretkov is an EDE, my understanding is that he shouldn't have any way of breaking out of perfectly mundane restraints other than his nonmagical attributes and his spirit charm, so as ES suggested it should be possible to contain him with a combination of Forces and Matter, even before we get to Corr or DSci.
 
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Arcus said:
I'm not sure Roth *can* help. Like, this is most probably the expression of a Paradox backlash for doing something seriously fucking vulgar. Janice has Mind 4. If this was something that could be fixed with Mind she would have probably dealt with it already.

Even if he could help he has to grok the problem through his paradigm, and the problem here is "I drew too heavily upon the knowledge and memories of my past life, now I'm losing my sense of self".
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It's not a paradox backlash, but it's perhaps an even more intractable problem. It's a fundamental paradigm problem.

Janice believes she's Ami's reincarnation, which makes them the same soul reborn into a different body. She also believes that your memories are what define you, because after all she trained as a nurse before she became a witch. She also believes that death in humans is much like winter for deciduous trees - it's a necessary part of life, to give you time to rest, forget past traumas, and begin things afresh. In tree metaphors, "Janice" is this year's leaves on the tree; "Ami" was last year's trees.

What she's doing, embracing the memories wholesale of her past life and letting them rise to the surface is therefore incredibly dangerous to "Janice", because the only difference between her and "Ami" is the memories each of them have. If they share memories, then they start running together and merging - and Ami was a suicidal mess by the end who wants to stay dead.

So the merging isn't a problem that Janice's Mind magic can deal with, because she can't enjoy the benefits of having the memories while also not having the memories. Once she lays Ami back to her sleep, she'll stop having a slow motion breakdown of her sense of self, but then she loses the benefits (while still having to pay off the costs).
 
"I hope you're discussing how you're going to get out of this." Gretkov taunts. "Because it's not going to happen. But I can give you a way you might be able to save everyone here. All you need to do is walk away. Gregor Leon needs to be... punished for his crisis of faith. And you can keep fighting your silly, unwinnable war against us, even. We don't care. You'll serve Control one way or another. Frankly, I would prefer it if you left, rather than surrendered. It'd give me more fun. But if you want to surrender to Control, you can do that as well."

Cross lets him talk, outwardly pretending to pay attention. Gretkov--Gretkov likes gloating. And that's useful here, because it buys them more time to plan. And because if they had been dealing with someone who was more efficient about the way they did things, Gregor Leon's corpse would likely already be lying on the ground with a knife buried in his brain.

But Gretkov likes playing with his food just a little too much, and that's going to cost him. Because he's forgotten that he's dealing with a Damage Control team here--and amongst other things, Damage Control sometimes has to deal with lab escapees who bodies are very expensive Union property--and some of those escapees were more than willing to commit suicide to avoid capture. If there was so much as a scratch on the subject when they were returned to secure containment the labcoats tended to make a huge fuss about it. So they have procedures for dealing with this sort of thing.

"Orders, sir?" One of the THOR agents asks.

"We had orders to capture Gregor Leon alive for questioning and interrogation. Even if he's being possessed by an EDE bodyjumper, those orders haven't changed. Execute Capture Protocol Sierra-16." Cross sends over the comms. They'll need to modify the standard procedure slightly to contain an EDE, in case Gretkov has any tricks that might let him slip out of his bonds, but Cross is confident this team can handle the adjustments. From the way Gretkov's EDE body sometimes shifts in his second set of senses, the ones that let him see into phase space, he suspects that the body-jumper would be capable of a kind of quantum locational indeterminacy--if he's not observed. Fortunately, if they give one of their Bobs orders to watch over the captive and not blink, that should count as being under observation.

The next few milliseconds see a flurry of activity over the comms between the team, as they finalize the details. Gretkov sees nothing of it, the interplay of tightbeam laser transmissions invisible to his eyes, but he notices the silence. "Nothing to say? Then I suppose I should get starte-"

Cross is very, very fast. And very, very good at making split second snap shots land exactly where he needs them. The first shot--a regular round--knocks the stiletto blade out of position, away from Gregor Leon's throat by a few inches. The second shot follows up immediately after, the reprogrammed biotoxin dart hitting Gretkov in the jugular, and immediately gets to work injecting its customized payload into the target's bloodstream. Even then, the EDE is still fast--dammably fast--as it tries to drive the stiletto into its cranium, but the fast action sedative has already started to have an effect, and Gretkov-Gregor seems to spasm involuntarily, his knife hand suddenly freezing mid-air. "B-astar-"

Then four of the THOR agents spray down the EDE's limbs with quick hardening containment foam, and Major Clarent has already crossed the room, bodyslamming Gretkov into the ground. The EDE lashes out, drawing blood with the point of his blade, barely sticking out of the rapidly hardening foam--but the injury is purely cosmetic to a full conversion cyborg, and with inhuman augmented strength the cyborg twists his arms behind his back, locking a pair of heavy duty EM restraints around his wrists.

"Do you think this will hold me--" Without missing a beat, the Major rolls Gretkov on to his back and slams a sponge down his throat--a precaution in case he tries to commit suicide by biting his tongue off. Helpfully, it also gets him to shut up. By that point, the rest of the team save Cross has joined her and they immediately get to work securing their EDE captive.

"Good work, everyone." Cross says, as he walks over to join them. One of the THOR agents has affixed a small device to Gretkov--Cross can see the fluctuating phase field it projects, stopping the EDE from slipping out of the confines of its host. Gretkov is still wriggling, but his movements are subdued and sluggish, and Damage Control restraints were made to hold captives with superhuman strength and more esoteric capabilities besides. He's not getting out of those until he's in a lab with the equipment to excise him--permanently.

Cross radios outside for assistance. "This is Cross. We have Gregor Leon in our custody. Be advised that he is currently possessed by a bodyjumping EDE, though the EDE has been subdued and restrained. Standard containment measures for bodyjumper-class EDEs and superhuman enhanciles required for prisoner transport. Requesting a retrieval team for pickup. Over."
 
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Arcus said:
Cross turns to one of the Bobs. "Until I countermand this order, under no circumstances are you to let this captive out of your sight."

"Yessir." The Bob dutifully turns to Gretkov to fulfill its assigned orders. Gretkov fumes, glaring at the Bob with all the hate and rage he can muster, but it's an impotent glare. The Bob for its part doesn't so much as flinch, and continues to stare blankly.
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Nice, but there won't be Bobs here. They're Conditioned non-specialist labour and won't be anywhere near this elite commando team (and it's just as well or he'd be able to jump into them).
 
EarthScorpion said:
Nice, but there won't be Bobs here. They're Conditioned non-specialist labour and won't be anywhere near this elite commando team (and it's just as well or he'd be able to jump into them).
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Fair enough, edited that bit out. But the idea of Gretkov not being able to use his "ignore all obstacles" spirit charm because he's locked into a staring contest with a Bob is still amusing enough that I would like to see it happen at some point.
 
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Arcus said:
I'm not sure Roth *can* help. Like, this is most probably the expression of a Paradox backlash for doing something seriously fucking vulgar. Janice has Mind 4. If this was something that could be fixed with Mind she would have probably dealt with it already.

Even if he could help he has to grok the problem through his paradigm, and the problem here is "I drew too heavily upon the knowledge and memories of my past life, now I'm losing my sense of self".
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He's a financier, and he still has money. There's all *sorts* of Technocracy resources he can call on, and they're sure to have *some* sort of paradigm to fix it with. She certainly can't fix it herself. She can't even use Mind or Life with the focii she knows anymore.

EarthScorpion said:
Stuff
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Ahhh. Huh. Well, that's another reason she can't put herself back together with Mind, and I suppose I am somewhat corrected. That makes her... *more* able to walk away from this and handle it herself than I was thinking, but I guess I was getting a narrative vibe that she'd gone deep enough that she was going to have to sacrifice something more of herself before this ended, and going a bit deeper into the cost portion of her Fate-working seemed like the best way to do that thematically, and the one most likely to wind up saving something worthwhile for both of them.

MJ12 Commando said:
That would be Corr 3/DSci 3, not Life 3/DSci 3. You might be able to do something crippling with Life 4/DSci 3 but nobody here has that.
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...and Agents are largely immune to effects, or at least can pretend to be immune for long enough, so that wouldn't really work either.
 
Arcus said:
I'm pretty certain that the whole point of Life 4/DSci 3 here is that it would override the spirit charm that lets them conceal wound penalties.
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Well, someone else can speak to that. What I read off of it was "they can ignore wound penalties, and pretty much no-sell debuff effects that target them directly." If my reading was incorrect, then great, and I'll happily adjust accordingly, but that wasn't the impression I was under.

Also, for your write-in... you ignored the bit where Gretkov gets an autoattack against Cross because cross is attacking him up close, as well as the effect no-sells. I'm not *sure* that either of those is a dealbreaker (maybe Cross is far enough away?), but perhaps we ought to check?
 
Sirrocco said:
Well, someone else can speak to that. What I read off of it was "they can ignore wound penalties, and pretty much no-sell debuff effects that target them directly." If my reading was incorrect, then great, and I'll happily adjust accordin
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The whole point of Life 4 is to negate the spirit charm--to say "nuh uh, no wound penalty ignoring spirit charms for you, you have to play by the same rules as everyone else".

Like, what did you think Christos was doing when he stopped As-Saud from being able to use his Damage Transfer power? Or when a Void Engineer marine stabs a Special Agent with a fancy knife designed to permakill them?

Also, for your write-in... you ignored the bit where Gretkov gets an autoattack against Cross because cross is attacking him up close, as well as the effect no-sells. I'm not *sure* that either of those is a dealbreaker (maybe Cross is far enough away?), but perhaps we ought to check?
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Hmm, point. Cross might be able to outspeed Gretkov with Time 3, though. Unless that requires Time 4.
 
Arcus said:
The whole point of Life 4 is to negate the spirit charm--to say "nuh uh, no wound penalty ignoring spirit charms for you, you have to play by the same rules as everyone else".

Like, what did you think Christos was doing when he stopped As-Saud from being able to use his Damage Transfer power? Or when a Void Engineer marine stabs a Special Agent with a fancy knife designed to permakill them?

Hmm, point. Cross might be able to outspeed Gretkov with Time 3, though. Unless that requires Time 4.
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Christos was using Spirit, not Life. Agents *can* be permakilled. You can stop them. You just can't slow them down. I'm sure that there are ways to shut off spirit charms, but that sounds like it's mostly Spirit. You *might* be able to pull it off with inspired use of DSci, but I'm pretty sure that 3 isn't adequate to the task.

For the most part, the spheres do what they say they do.
 
Arcus said:
I'm not sure Roth *can* help. Like, this is most probably the expression of a Paradox backlash for doing something seriously fucking vulgar. Janice has Mind 4. If this was something that could be fixed with Mind she would have probably dealt with it already.

Even if he could help he has to grok the problem through his paradigm, and the problem here is "I drew too heavily upon the knowledge and memories of my past life, now I'm losing my sense of self".
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Roths paradigm for mental stuff is mostly "Psychology was written by people who have never seen my MASSIVE THROBBING WILLPOWER!" or something like that, so he should be able to apply it through something like "My totally-not-rival cant possibly be overpowered by the side effects of some silly wicca shit, baka!".
Especially when he can apply it through the totally consensual ancient ritual of splattering some water on a persons face.:D
 
So... I see we haven't had any posts since midday Saturday. I'd rather this not fall through the cracks.

Right now we have four votes on JaniceQuest - two are Pathos (kick him off the edge and let him fall) and two are Pathos (kick him off the edge and then help him back up). I've logged my vote there, and encourage others to vote as well. Also, @Aleph, @Strypgia I'd be interested in your reactions to the Pathos write-in I provided, as it looks like you missed it when you voted on Thursday (admittedly, ti was at the end of a tldr). Oh, and it looks like @Arcus has given us a chunk of text for... Ethos maybe? Not clear. Nicely written, but no vote behind it.

Fortunately, it looks like base quest has something at least resembling a decent set of votes. That's something. Also, another chunk of text from @Arcus. That's cool too.

Still, a few more votes on JaniceQuest might go well... and if there's anyone out there just feeling confused and uncertain and not sure how to vote... perhaps you could share that confusion with us? Identifying the question is a *great* first step to finding the answer, and I can guarantee that there's at least one person out there who'll be happy to receive pontification prompts.
 
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[X] Pathos - Force the tragedy into his face. Bludgeon him with the trauma and how many children he'll be orphaning. If you've cracked open his heart with guilt, widen the crack until he can't ignore it.
 
Hmm...

Been vaguely poking at ideas for a detailed write-in, but part of my problem is that I'm having trouble imagining an approach to Pathos that isn't just... gauche.
 
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