OOC I'm doing this because, well, Rose has more responsibility now, and just treating people as obstacles to be neutralized is one of the failings of both sides in the Ascension War. :V

That's not true

Both sides respect all human life and give it all the dignity and consideration it deserves

That is to say, since the Apocalypse Canceller consumes 5 points of quintessence every second, and fully rendering down a random mook to quintessence gives you 10 quintessence, if crushing that guy saves you 2 seconds or more, it is the morally correct choice to make

On the other hand, it's also entirely possible this is pretty much what it looks like. Not the primary Serafina, of course, but a non-combat betafork being used as a hostage by desperate scientists who want to get out of here alive. In which case, assuming the risk or the circumstances aren't such that accepting their surrender would be a really bad idea or effectively impossible, we should do it to comply with the laws of war.

Technically, since the Technocracy, through the World Advisory Council, has significant influence over the UN, the Technocratic Union is technically the arbiter of international law and moreover even if it was not, the Izanagi personnel are Japanese citizens or residents being technically engaged by the Japanese Self-Defense Forces and therefore this isn't actually a war, but a police action. Therefore the laws of war are inapplicable.

Okay more seriously, what Rose might know, if someone justifies it IC, is that unlike the high-ranking officials in this facility, randos like these scientists and their shanghaied Vanessas have a reasonable likelihood of getting out alive, but with black marks on their records. They can turn Union's Evidence on the leadership and go "we didn't know! We swear!" Bonus points because in this case they literally didn't know, and probably suspected that it was entirely a rogue operation until, well, it turned out that they deployed some really expensive assets to ruin their day.

The only senior leadership who is likely to escape intact is Dr. Hayate Oufuji, who stabbed them in the back and 'accidentally' dosed everyone who was supposed to secure (and hold hostage) the BSL-4 lab in RIKEN with deadly binary neurotoxins. The other senior leadership is only being captured for interrogation and brain-death/backup destruction when possible. This is why they are not surrendering and why Piero tends to need to beat them into submission by, say, removing every organ in their chest cavity then turning their brain into paste (she has genetic memory encoded in her cell structure to store personality and memory information, she'll be fit for trial in a week). Sometimes he does not succeed, because several of the higher-ups think, reasonably, that Suicide-By-Wargod is a superior alternative to humiliation.

"But what about Sanjeet?"

Sanjeet was a hero of the Technocratic Union who sacrificed himself on Autochthonia to save others.

The Union cannot be allowed to know that one of their heroes has become a traitor. No prisoners.

As Piero knows, the only reason he let Sanjeet say some last words was because he deserved that honor. Nobody would remember them. Nobody would be allowed to remember them.
 
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Technically, since the Technocracy, through the World Advisory Council, has significant influence over the UN, the Technocratic Union is technically the arbiter of international law and moreover even if it was not, the Izanagi personnel are Japanese citizens or residents being technically engaged by the Japanese Self-Defense Forces and therefore this isn't actually a war, but a police action. Therefore the laws of war are inapplicable.
Clearly, this proves that not only was John Austin completely right about command theory, he was also a Technocrat paving the way for the Union to serve as the sovereign and source of international law. Thus, your criticism of the command theory of law falls flat because the sovereign of international law has terminator cyborgs with plasma guns and giant mechanical death spiders.

This is how to do legal theories, right?
 
Clearly, this proves that not only was John Austin completely right about command theory, he was also a Technocrat paving the way for the Union to serve as the sovereign and source of international law. Thus, your criticism of the command theory of law falls flat because the sovereign of international law has terminator cyborgs with plasma guns and giant mechanical death spiders.

This is how to do legal theories, right?

I mean technically in Mage law, like everything else that exists, only exists because it was dreamed up by sleeping gods whose thoughts shape everything and anything of the universe so...

yeah I think that makes total sense that there is actually a Sovereign that can be said to be the source of all laws, and that these laws are put down by decree and followed only because these sleeping gods can enact painful and terrifying sanctions on the law-breakers
 
I mean technically in Mage law, like everything else that exists, only exists because it was dreamed up by sleeping gods whose thoughts shape everything and anything of the universe so...

yeah I think that makes total sense that there is actually a Sovereign that can be said to be the source of all laws, and that these laws are put down by decree and followed only because these sleeping gods can enact painful and terrifying sanctions on the law-breakers
oh my god, command theory is actually right and so is scandinavian legal realism

amazing

this, amusingly means that natural law is closer to being right than legal positivism is, which makes me laugh forever

Jamelia: strong proponent of ius naturale
 
oh my god, command theory is actually right and so is scandinavian legal realism

amazing

this, amusingly means that natural law is closer to being right than legal positivism is, which makes me laugh forever

Jamelia: strong proponent of ius naturale

So if natural law exists, and all law comes from nature, and the nature of men is warlike and savage, does that mean that Piero is actually the greatest jurisprudential scholar of our times?!

His legal thesis of "If you don't like it then fuck you, fight me" is surprisingly convincing

He also is one of the few people to actually win an internet argument by going "fuck you, fite me irl"
 
[X] Write-in - Spring the Trap

Just Mind them into compliance?

Edit: Changed vote.
 
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Further, it's kind of thematically against the point for me to say 'treat them like people to be engaged with not objects to be manipulated' and then go 'Rose uses vampiric mind control to force compliance'. :V
 
That will not work. Mind in hostile situations is either a nudge to how things were already going to go, or a super-targeted solo thing. Going against a group with a big Mind thing can't do it.

More or less. Mind in hostile situations is almost always either: 1) something that only works on the scale of fractions of a second, or 2) as said, it's "encouragement to do what you want to do anyways."

As an example of the first, you have screaming "Don't shoot!" to the gunman to buy yourself a half-second before they realize that you're in lethal close combat range before you murder them by stabbing them in the neck with a pen, for example. Basically, offensive Mind in combat can be very powerful, if you can make use of that fraction of a second.

As an example of the second, you have Yinzheng's Mind effects on Sanjeet to make him unwilling to do anything but to fight to the death, and then you have Dr. Chryses's Mind effects on Sanjeet (using Piero as a focus) to make him ignore everyone but Piero because Piero was talkin' shit about his waifu.
 
That will not work. Mind in hostile situations is either a nudge to how things were already going to go, or a super-targeted solo thing. Going against a group with a big Mind thing can't do it.

I confused this with a couple other quests, forgot how this one's mechanics work. The system here is more complicated than the one I was thinking of.

Edit: Did not mean to prompt a big explanation, sorry.
 
That is to say, since the Apocalypse Canceller consumes 5 points of quintessence every second, and fully rendering down a random mook to quintessence gives you 10 quintessence, if crushing that guy saves you 2 seconds or more, it is the morally correct choice to make

This is both the absolute best and worst thing about the Technocracy specifically and Mage in general.
 
[X] Pretend You Don't Know: Rose is pretty sure subconsciously that she's getting baited into a trap, but she still can't quite bring herself to strike the first blow against someone who looks and acts that much like her mother. She'll just prepare for the fight but not attack until she gets attacked first.
-> [X] My Hands Are Clean: On the other hand, there are things she can do before they even come out of their air-locked diamond bunker.

Difficult Familial Relationships
[X] Write-In - It's tearing her up inside. She's desperately trying to find a way to mean she doesn't have to strike the first blow, to force the fake to reveal itself. Alex wouldn't hesitate; Piero wouldn't hesitate. But she's not them. Because in Rose's paradigm (the Progenitor one, mostly), a beta-fork of Serafina is still Serafina in almost all the ways that matter. And what if this isn't even a combat homunculus running a Serafina emulation? What if Leon has just been using her as a research aide in a body much like her own natural one?
 
His legal thesis of "If you don't like it then fuck you, fight me" is surprisingly convincing

He also is one of the few people to actually win an internet argument by going "fuck you, fite me irl"

Piero is Navy SEAL copypasta guy, except he's not exaggerating in the slightest.

"What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I am the single most lethal specimen of the EXEMPLAR project. I've been involved in numerous CODE: ULTRAVIOLET operations both on Earth and in the Void, and I have over 300 confirmed giant robot kills. I am extensively trained in both classical and modern warfare, and I was the greatest warrior of the Greeks back in the days of the Trojan War. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with thoroughness the likes of which has never been seen before on this planet or the next, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Digital Web? Think again, fucker. As we speak Iteration X has already pinpointed your location in realspace so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only have I mastered every type of combat conceivable, but I have access to the entire arsenal of Damage Control and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.

P.S. I suggest you just blow your brains out right now. It'll be faster that way for both of us."


NOTE: Approximately T+40 seconds after reading through SUBJECT DOMINICI's message, target committed suicide via application of 9mm hollowpoint to the cranium. Given these results, DR HELENA CHRYSE submits a request for additional funding to assess the viability of incorporating SUBJECT'S DOMINICI posting into tailored memetic-kill weapons.
 
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I think it's contractually obligated to have at least one deity level boss fight per arc by the QMs or something
Henriette: "And this time it's not my fault!"
Jamelia: strong proponent of ius naturale
And now you become truly scared when you learn Jamelia also has a JD. :V
So if natural law exists, and all law comes from nature, and the nature of men is warlike and savage, does that mean that Piero is actually the greatest jurisprudential scholar of our times?!
Bonus terror: In addition to painting to help him remain calm and focused, Pierro has been studying for his Bar Exam. :V

[X] Pretend You Don't Know: Rose is pretty sure subconsciously that she's getting baited into a trap, but she still can't quite bring herself to strike the first blow against someone who looks and acts that much like her mother. She'll just prepare for the fight but not attack until she gets attacked first.
-> [X] My Hands Are Clean: On the other hand, there are things she can do before they even come out of their air-locked diamond bunker.

Difficult Familial Relationships
[X] Write-In - It's tearing her up inside. She's desperately trying to find a way to mean she doesn't have to strike the first blow, to force the fake to reveal itself. Alex wouldn't hesitate; Piero wouldn't hesitate. But she's not them. Because in Rose's paradigm (the Progenitor one, mostly), a beta-fork of Serafina is still Serafina in almost all the ways that matter. And what if this isn't even a combat homunculus running a Serafina emulation? What if Leon has just been using her as a research aide in a body much like her own natural one?
 
Bonus terror: In addition to painting to help him remain calm and focused, Pierro has been studying for his Bar Exa

By bar exam of course they mean "how far and how fast can Piero hurl a 300 kilogram steel bar?"

[X] Pretend You Don't Know: Rose is pretty sure subconsciously that she's getting baited into a trap, but she still can't quite bring herself to strike the first blow against someone who looks and acts that much like her mother. She'll just prepare for the fight but not attack until she gets attacked first.
-> [X] My Hands Are Clean: On the other hand, there are things she can do before they even come out of their air-locked diamond bunker.

Difficult Familial Relationships
[X] Write-In - It's tearing her up inside. She's desperately trying to find a way to mean she doesn't have to strike the first blow, to force the fake to reveal itself. Alex wouldn't hesitate; Piero wouldn't hesitate. But she's not them. Because in Rose's paradigm (the Progenitor one, mostly), a beta-fork of Serafina is still Serafina in almost all the ways that matter. And what if this isn't even a combat homunculus running a Serafina emulation? What if Leon has just been using her as a research aide in a body much like her own natural one?
 
... guys. I feel obliged to point out that we are not going to make an angry god by giving a random Progenitor mook a shot of super-adrenaline that is, mechanically, a pretty simple Time rote to give her multiple actions for a few turns. Not when Rose can rip Paradox Spirits apart with her bare hands and is armed on top of that.

The reason we made an angry god with Henrietta was because she was already on or near that level. And trying to negotiate surrender here is assuming the best, which is laudable in day-to-day life but just plain suicidal when going up against someone like Gregor who can spam precision-targeted memetic attacks at people as smart as Serafina. Especially when we're in the middle of his traitor Construct that's currently under assault. Even in the best of faith, "while covered in dragon blood and to the tune of distant explosions" is not a good setting to conduct negotiations.

If you want to give them a chance, call their bluff by pointing out you know she's a clone and see what they do - that'll let you observe their reaction to get some evidence. Or go with ES's writein and psychically read the memories of one of them to know for sure. Don't just assume it's true because it would be really nice and beneficial, because those two things have basically never been the case in this entire quest.
 
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