[X] Find the mages and do a decapitation strike.
[X] To close a CTC Loop

I'm... nervous about the massive risk, but hopefully ES can pull it off.
 
Be Kessler:
[X] Find the mages and perform a decapitation strike.
[X] then use the confusion to clear the ship. If possible, that is.

Be Jamelia:
The CTC idea is awesome, but I don't see how it will actually make our position better. Wait a minute, yes I do. Back-door codes. Sleeper-cell assets. Setting up things in the past that we can draw upon in the future. Give Admiral Ivanova a sealed letter to be opened tomorrow. (Joking!) (Argument was going to be, that if we introduce this plotline, we'll be doing things that otherwise would already have been done without our intervention. Purely meta, but hey, we're up against horribleness that might well justify it.) Massive risk, massive reward ho!
[X] To close a CTC Loop
 
[X] To close a CTC Loop
You had me at CTC, you magnificent bastard.

Be Jamelia:
[X] To close a CTC Loop

We're obviously only going to do the things we already did in the past, but even that restriction gives us enough leeway to retcon in entire lost Constructs. Also, we could paradox ourselves into having never existed, right along with the quest as we know it. Extreme risk, extreme reward.
 
[X] To close a CTC Loop

I'm in awe. I've seen Novikov-compliant loops instantiated in self-contained works. I've seen loops instantiated in serials with years of planning. I've seen loops, albeit kludgey, half-baked loops, instantiated in movies and television shows written by small groups. I've never seen a clean loop instantiated in a work with more than one or two writers. Novikov-compliance is one of those things that's hard to fit into headspace on the best of days, much less get multiple people going in the same direction on. These things don't just happen. Every DM I've talked to has a dream where they manage to predict their players well enough to tie the story into a tightly-coupled loop. And I think we just witnessed someone hook a loop up in a quest. I feel like I can see forever.

In-game, super risk, super reward. Like Lightwhispers said, we can set up sleeper cells for ourselves, mail our team a suspiciously convenient letter (which I just realized I should use in the future as an example of why causality violation == FTL travel), gather now-destroyed information, and so on. Goferit.

You know, since I'm praising this quest already, I might as well add that it has one of the higher holy-shit quotients I've read. Up there with the Codex Alera or Mistborn. This kind of thing is why.
 
Last edited:
[X] Find the mages and perform a decapitation strike.
[X] To visit an alternate history and find allies there


We just want the ship, not the whole base and loot. That's risks and tim we don't need to burn.

Also while the CTC is a fun idea I...prefer to have less psyduck. Not getting enough sleep lately to have my brain pretzeled.
 
[X] Find the mages and perform a decapitation strike.
[X] To visit an alternate history and find allies there
.
CTC is headaches but Alternate histories are always fun
 
[X] To close a CTC Loop

This sounds fascinating enough and has enough potential material to dig into, that I wouldn't mind if it actually turned into an entire story-arc on its own -- or even more/longer. So much stuff... it's a whole 'nother era in '99.
I think it's sort of narratively and thematically important that we see Control at the height of its power. I mean, yeah, IC Jamelia already knows what they were like, hell she helped enforce their status quo. But her memory's, uh, a little spotty at best and new eyes yield fresh insights. Plus it's a good opportunity for us to see the men behind the mask as it were. Control's devolved substantially but everything that they are now as Threat Null traces back to them then. Seeing the origins of all their quirks and idiosyncrasies and dysfunctions in all their messed up glory could be immensely valuable.

Plus, like, how the Union's changed, how the Conventions have changed both individually and together, has been a running theme throughout the Quest. I think that seeing what they've changed from firsthand ties into that really nicely.

Also dimensionally cockblocking Mecha Cthulu. What's not to love?
Plus it's a good opportunity for us to see the men behind the mask as it were. Control's devolved substantially but everything that they are now as Threat Null traces back to them then. Seeing the origins of all their quirks and idiosyncrasies and dysfunctions in all their messed up glory could be immensely valuable.
We're obviously only going to do the things we already did in the past, but even that restriction gives us enough leeway to retcon in entire lost Constructs.
I thought this was a pretty damn cool idea already... but now that you brought up the obvious idea of not just doing things in the past but also seeing all the stuff about the past... seeing what Control was like... That IS cool.

God, that just makes me wish that we can devote an entire story-arc just to the trip in the past! Just so we can See ALL The Things.
I mean, this just explains SO MUCH.

You know how shit always goes bad when we take a vacation? Acausal paradox backlash from time travel shenanigans.
Bad requisitions rolls? Paradox backlash.
Donald running out of drugs? Paradox backlash.
Rose moe failures? Paradox backlash/Entropy 4th wall bad luck rotes.
- ok, getting a bit silly there -
Actually, that's already been touched on before. It's Paradox Backlash from trying to run things like a smooth, professional operator in a strange strange world.
Poor Jamelia. She wants to live in a world where missions happen without a hitch and everyone is coolly professional and knows what they're doing.

Sadly, the global paradigm in Panopticon doesn't support that, and hence she ends up with a team where the most reliable member is either the permanently drugged up mildly corrupt corporate executive, or the somewhat distractible scientist with an interesting personal life and an imaginary friend she doesn't realise is imaginary. Kessler was disqualified from the "most reliable team member" competition because the invites were sent out by smartphone, and his just was stolen by ninjas from Hong Kong (and he couldn't use it anyway).

And whenever she tries to run a professional mission, the paradox backlash from such an out-of-Consensus mission means she winds up having to order her underlings to attack Russian vampires while dressed as Robot Stalin, or her party picks up a racist animate suit of power armour, or a family member of someone in the party shows up... and they're evil!
And we have discovered the true root of Jamelia's headaches. It's not the INVISIBLE BEAR side-effects. No, it's the mini-paradox that builds up in her head when she attempts to play 'I'm a highly-trained superspy, and everything is logical and professional', and the universe laughs and rejects her pathetic attempts by making her life into a combination action-thriller and goofball family sitcom.
 
I just realise that we can use this loop closing to set off all the other vote choices.
 
[X] Find the mages and do a decapitation strike.
[X] To close a CTC Loop

Yeah, I want to do that CTC loop.

...Hopefully this doesn't end in Jamelia drowning in paradox backlash.
 
Yeah, I want to do that CTC loop.

...Hopefully this doesn't end in Jamelia drowning in paradox backlash.

Oh man, it is totally going to wind in her drowning in paradox backlash if she changes things. Seriously, we already have a mechanic called "Paradox". It's likely that purely mundane actions will be able to rack up her Paradox, based on the "change". Saving someone who would have died? That sounds a lot like it's creating new life that otherwise wouldn't have existed. So that's going to be 'dox akin to bringing someone back to life. Which is going to hurt like the blazes [1].

She's going to have to rely like fuck on her Entropy 1 + Time 1 sense of "how things would have gone if she wasn't here". Fortunately, she's Jamelia, aka Miss "I don't like Permadox", because Kessler and Henriette would be utterly fucked from backlashes.

[1] Sounds like the Chrononauts Initiative saving Stalin and two of his guards by killing the Nephandi three days before they killed him would, under that scene, have hit Catherine Nichols with a 20+ Paradox backlash (saving three people + killing other people). No wonder it put her in a hospital bed for a year.
 
Last edited:
So, anyway, the "what Jamelia does" vote seems pretty decisive here... Now what about the other vote? The Ether Ship assault isn't having much discussion or commentary.

Is "decapitation strike" the best option? Is it too risky and expected? Is "taking it slow" the right approach, or actually the expected one and thus too slow and a bad choice?
 
So, anyway, the "what Jamelia does" vote seems pretty decisive here...

Oh no, don't be like that.

I'm entirely capable of being convinced otherwise instead of Jamelia Doing The Time Warp (Again). People just need to have something sufficiently fun proposed as an alternative, and I'll totally vote for it.

I will make it entirely clear to people that Time Travel is not a fun option. It is a nervous, tense option where Jamelia will probably have to do things that makes even her rather tarnished soul feel decidedly uncomfortable, and where she'll have to do things she doesn't want to simply to avoid exploding from Paradox.
 
A year-long coma seems like getting off light from 20 'dox.

I will make it entirely clear to people that Time Travel is not a fun option. It is a nervous, tense option where Jamelia will probably have to do things that makes even her rather tarnished soul feel decidedly uncomfortable, and where she'll have to do things she doesn't want to simply to avoid exploding from Paradox.
Oh, a 'crat doing morally uncomfortable things in 1999. What're the odds? ;)

I do think it will be entertaining and engaging, even if it'll be too dangerous to really call fun.
 
I'm entirely capable of being convinced otherwise instead of Jamelia Doing The Time Warp (Again). People just need to have something sufficiently fun proposed as an alternative, and I'll totally vote for it.

...Alright uh...I'll bite.

[X] To visit an alternate history and find allies there.

At the Altar of Practicality I offer "we have significantly more leeway to change events without having to worry about without the ineffable cosmic force of Time deciding it's not appreciated enough and throwing a temper tantrum".

At the Altar of Fun (and Explosions and Social Kung Fu and Literal Kung Fu) I offer the fact that we'll be able to do significantly more all around. Traveling back in history means that we're relegated to the role of sightseer, keep all hands and arms and telephone calls inside the vehicle (and oh by the way the people you're fighting give no shits about reaching in and tearing you out so good luck~). We might be able to memorize a few lists of personnel, or a timeline or locations of some good stuff but, when you get down to it, we can't bring entire Constructs lost to the Dimensional Anomaly back from the dead. Or really meaningfully affect anything beyond what we're already planning and, frankly, that's going to be bringing down it's own boatload of Paradox soooo...yeah.

So basically it's about as safe and interactive as a tour of Jurassic Park's raptor enclosure wearing nothing but a suit of steaks and a set of handcuffs.

Which brings me to my second stop on this roundabout journey back to The Point: what happens when Threat Null successfully invades Earth (which I think is probably the best candidate for the alternate worldline since I rather doubt MJ's going to send us to the world of "everything's cool and dandy and look free cookies go ahead and take a few")? Well for one most of the world goes bye bye given the, uh, ongoing technopocalypse. But more than that. The last vestiges of the magical paradigm collapses on account of the hypertech horrors running roughshod over the planet's collective ghoulies which meeeaaaaaans:

Guilt free giant robot fights motherfuckers. Calling down highjacked satellite fire on the mantis-shrimp based kaiju ravaging San Francisco. Counter assassinating Agents in Tokyo. Broing out with a General Augustine who, after seeing what Control truly is, is leading the resistance. We can see what happens after the end, we can see all the stresspoints between the various mirror-Conventions emerge in full force after they achieve their goal of returning to Earth and suddenly don't have that powerful shared motive binding them together. And instead have oodles of conflicting ideas on how Mass Ascension should be achieved (which, you know, for someone like Jamelia who can ruin nation's shit with a cellphone is immensely valuable). And we can see how the Technocracy either fell apart or stuck together and who was crucial to it. We can pick and chose from the successes and potentially side-step the failures.

We can lead an exodus (of varying size granted) out of a dying world. We can provide our world with another IBM on standby, maybe something even more impressive.

Like scarred up, eyepatched alt-versions of ourselves.

Oh and also alternatively, courtesy of Senex.

Perhaps even a world where Ascension came and Threat Null did not, where Panopticon are the last guardsman at the gate rather than the snake in the grass."

To be perfectly frank I'm not exactly sure what to make of this (so congratulations Murder-Ghandi, you're exactly as confusing as you intended to be) but I think it's referencing either the Council of Nine Mystic Traditions returning with demigods and demons or an alternate variant of Control.

Either way. A world on the brink or hurtling over it at a hundred miles an hour is worth seeing.

Especially if we can do Things. Do lots of Things.
 
Last edited:
... I find this unlikely. Given both his dedication and Control's likely failsafes... yeah.

Okay fair enough but from the same bit by Senex.

"Yes. The enemy has come. Your first trial. Your next few will reveal themselves in time. A Caesar, but not of his blood, dressed in white, with the power of armies and an all-seeing eye. An emperor who may be convinced to abdicate.

At least this seems to be pretty clearly referencing Augustine Aleph. And MJ's made allusions to the fact that the General's loyalty isn't as unshakeable as Control would like what with all the suicides and all and how he thinks of himself as a tool rather than a person (but still can't get rid of that niggling doubt in the back of his skull and oh how it niggles). It's improbable yeah but not implausible. And considering that in the same breath Senex talks about a Panopticon that's the last guardian at the gate instead of the snake in the grass it means that there are, at least, worlds where the Construct if not Augustine itself is on the side of the good(ish) guys.

This being one of them doesn't strike me as particularly egregious.
 
Last edited:
So I was doing some thinking about the possible setup of the CTC as mentioned having been referenced far earlier in this quest, and how much I want to see an alternate history and go hunt some allies from.

And it occurs to me that there's a really cool potential option here to do both at once.

Let's say that the CTC loop needs to be closed- that in order for Jamelia's timeline to exist, she has to take her team and travel back to that point during the height of Control's dominance and do her thing.

Nichols is perpetually on the run from the VE's, doesn't have much in the way of allies, and almost certainly needs a significant amount of equipment to send Jamelia physically back in time.

There's two options here.

First, that she doesn't need to send Jamelia back in time. Jamelia's vacation that she remembers according to ES. Let's say, hypothetically, that she went to Tahiti. It's a magical place.

Which is to say that rather than physically sending Jamelia back in time, Nichols is sending her severed psyche back into the past to possess her own past self, and the reason why past Jamelia only remembers a vacation was because she was suppressed for the duration of it.

This would massively cut down on paradox since there aren't two Jamelia's running around, but also means that what she can do is limited. She may have access to her current spheres, or she might be limited by her previous self. She'll almost definitely be under INVISIBLE BEAR again unless Nichols can insulate her during the transmission so she isn't affected by it.

But ultimately, this would be something Nichols wouldn't need the rest of Jamelia's team for- and as I noted in my previous post, that goes against her suggested objectives- where she's stalling so that Jamelia's rescue party gets here so she can use them. Maybe she just needs transport, but I'm leaning more towards the idea of this being a team action.



Which brings me to the second option:

There is a knot in time says Control. Jamelia is the Adversary, and it hinges on her. Actions she's taken in the past, a CTC loop that needs to be closed, but Control wants to blast open.

So here's a question: What happens if they're successful? Let's say, hypothetically, that they use a Reality Deviant attack to sever Jamelia's Psyche from her body, killing her before she can close the loop. It explodes open. The past changes, or remains unchanged and the original/new timeline re/asserts itself. Destinies change and intertwine, and your result?

An entirely different, alien future.

An alternate timeline, if you will.


In the current Timeline, Nichols has made an enemy of most of space. It's unlikely she has any long term sanctum or base to man expenditions into the past. Maybe she doesn't need it, if she can get her hands on, oh, a hyperdrive she can modify to temporally translocate the vessel into the past. This is of course riskier than sending a mind back, but lets you bring sense and existence and firepower.

Risk versus Reward.

But also remember that she's told Jamelia not to trust anyone, that everyone could be lying, or that even if their true selves are the same, does that distinction really mean anything, or is it the most meaningful answer in her arsenal.

So, @EarthScorpion, I give you this suggestion:

Jamelia chooses not to trust Nichols. There's too much at stake now to spend precious time galavanting around in the past when her present body is in danger and Control is moving ever closer to victory. When her rescue gets here, they'll load up- Nichols will ask for a ride earthside and Jamelia'll give her one as fair trade for the help, while mentioning that she really is telling the truth, but she can see that Jamelia is a trust but verify type, that even if she can understand the truth maybe she needs to witness it with her own eyes.


So they go. They head back to Earth. Things are going well- perhaps too well. And that's very odd. There's no hidden ambushes, there's no threat null attack squadrons trying to shoot them out of the sky.

And all the while, Nichols has that grin. Jamelia knows the one. Number Forty Seven. The 'You are about to know what I know but don't know it yet' grin. The one she uses on Henriette, watching the girl take her first stumbling steps into greater awareness.

She knows the grin, but what it hints at... there's a reason it's so effective.


They arrive in Earth orbit, and everything's different. Maybe the Dimensional Anomaly's gone, maybe the masquerade is broken. Maybe Control dominates North America while the traditions and the Night People fight a desperately losing battle against its endless tides.

Or maybe it's more insidious, a future where widespread human augmentation dominates, where dreams like those of Deus Ex are not simply amusing pasttimes, but actual realities. Where monsters like Alex Mercer fight smartmatter clad combat AI's for the hearts and souls- literally- of mankind.

A world where the technocracy has fragmented, where the Void Engineers' secret was exposed early, where Control came back and half the union split to return to join their former masters, while the more humanist conventions stared on in horror at the future of the world, forced to turn their backs on everything they believed in just to survive.

An alternate history- one where things are different and so very dire.

Jamelia made her choice, and this is the result. She turns to Nichols, and the smile is there. She knew all along. But there's still hope. If she can travel back in time and redo what was undone, retie the knot in time, then all of this will go away, becoming the stuff of memories. A false future, a doomed existence banished to the tesseract of unmade possibilities.





So Jamelia, her team, and Nichols visit an alternate timeline, gather allies, and then with Nichols' help, travel back in time to set right what was once done wrong, and save some completely so-deniable-the-don't-even-exist assets in the process. Allies and information from a doomed timeline.
 
Just reading that [made/makes] me feel like I [just/already] [finished/will finish] playing Bioshock: Infinite [again/for the first time].

And now I've gone cross-eyed.
 
To be perfectly frank I'm not exactly sure what to make of this (so congratulations Murder-Ghandi, you're exactly as confusing as you intended to be) but I think it's referencing either the Council of Nine Mystic Traditions returning with demigods and demons or an alternate variant of Control.

Either way. A world on the brink or hurtling over it at a hundred miles an hour is worth seeing.

Especially if we can do Things. Do lots of Things.
From an OOC perspective... this might be relevant or might be a big misdirection from MJ, but that description matches one of the 'end-of-the-world' scenario plotlines in the M:tAsc book Ascension. Without going into too much detail, Panopticon and Ragnarok Command are both present in that scenario, and are 'good-ish' side rather than 'bad-ish', at least from the protagonist perspective.
 
Interesting stuff. Both Tenfoldshield's and Kerrus's posts.

And yeah, I actually have been thinking about that old "a world where Ascension came and Threat Null did not, where Panopticon are the last guardsman at the gate rather than the snake in the grass" sentence myself. And yeah I figure that an alt-timeline romp would be awesome for that. (But I do want to just have my cake and eat it too, with alt-timelines and closed timelike curves!)

I do have an issue with Kerrus's idea of "Jamelia tries to return only to see an alt-timeline". Namely, that, well... it's the sort of gambit that looks clever and dramatic on paper and when it happens in fiction... but if moved to real-life it would not necessarily be as convincing as in fiction.

Namely because the guy talking to the Ghost of Christmas Future or Clarence Odbody can always go "Yeah, no. You've shown me alternate worlds or possible future worlds but you haven't convinced me that they're some sort of objective truth about myself or the world."

Jamelia can just point out that "hijack their travel and send them to an alt-world" is totally something Nichols can do with her D-Sci 6; that just because Catherine shows her a world where shit is fucked, doesn't mean that the only way to avoid that world is by taking on the CTC mission.
"Yeah, great, you've shown me a hellhole... Now send me back home," basically.


I do like the lure of eyepatched versions of people, though... :p
First, that she doesn't need to send Jamelia back in time. Jamelia's vacation that she remembers according to ES. Let's say, hypothetically, that she went to Tahiti. It's a magical place.

Which is to say that rather than physically sending Jamelia back in time, Nichols is sending her severed psyche back into the past to possess her own past self, and the reason why past Jamelia only remembers a vacation was because she was suppressed for the duration of it.

This would massively cut down on paradox since there aren't two Jamelia's running around, but also means that what she can do is limited.
I actually assumed that that was what Catherine was going to do. ES's write-in had her going "something you've done in the past", and "borrowing a week of time" and it implied that what was going to happen was that Past!Jamelia was going to do stuff and at the end of it Past!Jamelia would only remember a vacation.

I'm not even sure how the "two Jamelia's running around" would even work -- after all, right now Jamelia is just a mind. She has no body. Unless she would be sent back and corporealize and materialize on arrival, I guess.
 
Back
Top