I suspect that Serena simply dislikes the incubators. After all, a contract with an incubator is what screwed her over so hard in the first place. The fact that she isn't traveling around the world putting out the fires that they're (indirectly) responsible for is telling. Serena probably isn't quite as antagonistic as Homura (whose shoots them on sight), but I doubt that she likes them very much.
Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)
- Thread starter inverted_helix
- Start date
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
Eh, arguing with four people who refuse to acknowledge that they're effectively treating a damaged teenager like a nuclear weapon/personal attack dog, and couching it as ethical because of her condition, is the kind of thing that breeds dickish behavior. You guys even had the gall to claim she'd be better off that way. Shame on me for mixing a little personal celebration with some snubbing, but you were being extremists, worse than the incubators in terms of amorality.
I've not said much on the topic, so calling me an extremist is also out of line imo.
It's not so bad after the image is blocked. The image did put it rather over the top, though.
Ahh... I misunderstood. You might want to clarify for helix, because I would have read that as giving them to Nagoya.
I agree that caring for the well being of all our members without arbitrary favor is an essential part of our creed. However, the well being part is the higher value, and if the well being of the whole requires treating some girls differently then we make those accommodations. I don't see this as establishing hierarchical levels of treatment. Rather it is an accommodation for a specific condition that makes normal treatment impossible.
Well here we disagree. I think that history is pretty obvious that as systems emphasize equality more and more, to the extent of displacing reciprocity, that systems become more and more unstable (see the Chinese Cultural Revolution). I see non-stratified systems as still primarily dependent on reciprocity for stability, and that the reason they arose is that the addition of equality as a value allowed these non-stratified systems to become more stable than the stratified systems they displaced.
As long as systems highly value both reciprocity and equality, they will be more stable, as long as on the rare occasions they come into conflict that the difference goes to reciprocity. But once a system starts violating reciprocity in the name of equality things start to fall apart.
Well, that's mainly because I think this is going to be a long hard amount of research. I don't oppose it at all. I think it is definitely something we should do. I just figured we should grab the lower hanging fruit first.
Is this after we successfully research how to safely block her aura? If so I am all for this, and have no problem with it.
This has actually already been discussed as the second wave of Serena research. Spell Bindings combined with the figuring our how to store her aura in a charm ought to allow a first attempt at this, followed by refinements.
I mean, blocking her aura seems like something hard to figure out even what the first thing to research is... probably Telepathic Defenses actually. This however I see the path too, so I'm all for it. The more complicated blocking... not that I'm against it, I'd just like some more information first and a plan of action.
Well sure. I'm in agreement to make her life better. I just start out with safety concerns because those are something that need to be resolved first. Then we can start moving forward on ways to continue improving her life. The way I see it that just benefits both of us. So why wouldn't I want to do it?
Well, that's true. I'm operating on the inference that there may be no safe long term exposure, since Kyubey even admits there isn't enough data to say. I'm willing to reassess risks and safety measures as new information becomes available. I just feel we should start from a cautious level, and recognize that it might be a long and hard road to reach a point that we can reduce safety precautions, and so we shouldn't promise anything that we don't yet know how to deliver.
Last edited:
Thinking about it some more...
The first step on figuring out how to block the aura might very well be to research an enchantment form first so that the aura can be quickly "turned off" if the blocking attempts start to go wrong somehow...
Depends a lot on just how dangerous the aura is. My impression is that it's pretty dangerous. Partially because of how the aura has been presented so far, and partially from a meta stand-point. It's not a real drawback to Serena if the aura's danger is easily subverted.
The first step on figuring out how to block the aura might very well be to research an enchantment form first so that the aura can be quickly "turned off" if the blocking attempts start to go wrong somehow...
Depends a lot on just how dangerous the aura is. My impression is that it's pretty dangerous. Partially because of how the aura has been presented so far, and partially from a meta stand-point. It's not a real drawback to Serena if the aura's danger is easily subverted.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
I return to the post that got everyone so riled up, again.
'Chronic exposure studies' imply consistent, regular exposure more closely spaced than 8 hours every 3 months. Serena refuses to alter her schedule, so the Incubators can't perform chronic exposure studies of various controls and exposure levels. The comment about 'not enough data to say' is an extrapolation you've made from their inability to convince Serena to spend more and less time around meguca, deliberately exposing them for extended periods or coming back in shorter intervals, when in reality they have a wealth of data about one specific exposure rate with a given rest period, but not much else.
They will also have plenty of data about passing contact (between 30 minutes and 1 hour), based on tracking her travel routes and observing meguca she passes by for emotional changes.
The vague information they were willing to provide indicates that for meguca who realize the cause of the aura, there are 'some' who will attempt to seek more, but not necessarily need more, and even then Kyuubey is deliberately vague. Do the meguca who seek out more have no personal support system, thus making them natural risks for spirals? Is the addictive behavior uniform across high-morale meguca compared to low-morale?
This is all data that they would definitely have compiled, as it would be as easy as performing regular observation duties on contracted and keeping a watchful eye on changes in stability. The only reason he has for hiding it is that we have neither paid him for it, and it provides a tactical advantage over Serena (we could possibly determine the safe maximum exposure time/rest period when fighting her, and use that to aggressively harass her without fear of addiction).
Actually, I took it to mean that Serena is a recent enough contractee that there have not been sufficient exposure times to say with any confidence that there are no chronic problems. If Serena contracted one year ago, then there would only be four exposure data points per a location, which is hardly enough to determine chronic effects.
Or maybe the Incubators don't care enough about this to expend the effort to gather the data you think they have. It sounds more to me like they did some initial studies because the effect was unusual, but once they determined that they couldn't find a way to efficiently exploit it they decided to stop investigating because it wasn't worth the cost.
Plus, for all we know, magical girls might flee the area when she arrives or passes through an area.
I know I probably would if I was a magical girl in a small organization.
Last edited:
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
Serena is old enough to have followed a route that the incubators were willing to settle on 'never the same place twice in three months'. You can't definitively claim that she doesn't go to the same locations more than once every three months unless she's done the full circle at least twice, but for a definitive statement I wouldn't settle for any less than four full circles, which implies she's been around for at least 6-12 months after her initial discoveries on her aura's effect.
Serena's effect on meguca is so unusual, for purposes of efficient GCU collection if nothing else, that the incubators would almost certainly have committed to at least a few months of more focused data collection (especially if said data collection didn't require them to change their behavior from observation to testing). What you're suggesting is literally a waste of resources; if they're going to be watching the contracted anyway, why not also compile data about Serena's effect on them?
Her aura offers at least half an hour of breeze-hunting (I would suspect a total of at least -10% hunting risk, and another -10% casualty risk). Desperate solo, duo, and I would suppose up to packs of four girls probably wait for her to circle back around because she's capable of guaranteeing safe, expedient hunts for a short time that allows them to get good stocks of GCU going, more if she happens to stop and sleep there. Larger groups may be less inclined to let her pass through, but even then the greatest risk is staying where she sleeps, and even that can't be fully abstracted to a full turn. You can't even fully abstract it to .5 time units of withdrawal, it's closer to .125 time units lost for 8 hours of completely death-free hunting.
I'm not saying we should use the aura to hunt, but I am saying that the chances that every meguca in her path runs for the hills for half a day is incredibly unlikely because none of them will have our innate degree of safety in hunting, and the incubators will definitely have lots of subjects to observe.
Interesting how you'd impose your own personal opinion on literally every single meguca in Baja, though. This thread barely has 8 people in it and almost half of them don't agree with you. I'd say the odds are about the same or better for random meguca fighting for their lives every single day, only for her to roll in as a breath of fresh air for an hour before she packs up and gets moving again.
Good grief. It's statements like this that are so frustrating. I didn't impose my personal opinion on anyone. I shared my personal opinion. I did not even claim that all magical girls in Baja think like me. I merely pointed out that we don't know what their behavior is, pointed out that their behavior might be different than you are assuming, and shared my personal opinion as evidence that girls might not be willing to stay around Serena, no matter the benefit.
In fact, you seem to be the one that is absolutely certain about how magical girls in Baja will behave, and absolutely certain about how Serena will behave too, and absolutely certain as to how the Incubators will behave. To the point that you continually label me an extremist for not making the same assumptions.
I on the other hand avoiding making assumptions about how people behave, and instead advocate for establishing expectations upfront because making assumptions about how people will behave tends to result in disappointment and conflict. Thus I insist that we express our concerns and conditions to Serena, so that she can then openly respond to them. This free exchange of positions then allows us to see if we can come to an agreement that we both find satisfactory, without making assumptions. You seem to find this incredibly offensive for some reason, I really don't understand why.
Might I suggest that you read over the moral foundations descriptions, and consider if maybe we are just approaching the issue using different moral frameworks to evaluate it? You seem to be extremely focused on the fairness/justice aspect, and don't seem to be willing to grant even the grace of good motives to anyone who considers other moral values as an important way to evaluate the situation.
Last edited:
Which is why I took the position that Serena could be only one year old as a contractee. And then said that that would not provide enough data to properly evaluate the possibility of multiple exposure effects. You... sort of agreed with me that my estimate was a legitimate lower bound for Serena's length of contract.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
I already know I'm coming at this from a different moral standpoint, and that I see yours as how you justify making a power grab for something you actually don't want anywhere near you. That was the content of at least three? four? posts I've made on the subject.
Bull. You've assumed just as much as I have regarding how much information we'll be able to put together on her aura pre-experiment, you're just coming at it from the other direction, assuming that the information will be sparse and useless, in order to justify putting heavy restrictions on Serena's movements should she join, whereas I assume that there will be trustworthy data that can ensure such restrictions are unnecessary.
You... never took that position (at least I've never seen you claim her age before)? And a year's worth of exposure at those levels is enough to form at least basic conclusions regarding it's general addictive strength with repeat exposure. Serena, at least, will have tried to stay in contact somehow to ensure nobody was seriously affected while she makes her rounds, and that's as good a study as any.
Will probably have to agree to disagree, then. Though I have a real hard time understanding how you can possibly consider the Chinese Cultural Revolution as an example of equality in ethics. The CCR was just one big fucking mess. It was an example of authoritarianism, if anything.
Well, the Telepathy Defense certainly isn't a "low hanging fruit" either. We've already established that if we deem something important, it bypasses the "low hanging fruit" threshold.
Yes.
For blocking the aura, I expect it to proceed something like:
1) Detect aura-based magic. Leverage research done on materials' reaction to magic. Possibly supplement with Secondary Properties research.
2) Manipulate magic aura (small-scale). Based on detection research, and what materials and magic make it possible.
3) Shape magic aura. Affect flow and density along desired paths.
4) Negate magic aura. Shape so that the aura does not interact with the subject.
Since you mention telepathic defenses — we might actually want to revise the research to start at the 'detection' level, before trying to jump forward to 'blocking'.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
The possibility that the withdrawal from low level exposure is psychological in nature rather than chemical should be considered as well, namely because the presence of a support system seems to significantly affect the chance of a spiral during withdrawal. If it is, sufficient telepathy hardening should be enough to completely negate short-term exposure withdrawal depending on how we go about increasing resistance.
Indeed. But then, anything relating to the Tokyo situation and the aftermath is and will be a clusterfuck no matter what unfortunately.
I... don't see how those conclusions are valid.
A support network of friends is vastly useful no matter what the form of addiction. The fact that those who had support available did better is pretty much a no-brainer.
As such, it can't be used as the basis for the assumption of telepathy hardening having any effect. And in fact, even if it did, I can't see telepathy hardening being relevant.
However I do think that telepathic research in general will be useful. The vague idea I have in mind is a tel-empathic hard limit, that puts a block on emotional shifts beyond a certain point. That would actually be hindered by telepathic hardening, though.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
@Kinematics
@Elder Haman
Any support for getting on that "Nagisa the pet whisperer" idea this turn? If we do get Serena we'll probably need the extra cash.
@Elder Haman
Any support for getting on that "Nagisa the pet whisperer" idea this turn? If we do get Serena we'll probably need the extra cash.
Umm... that's not how recognizing the other person has other moral values they are considering works. Basically, you just accused me of having ulterior and improper motives, because my position does not match yours.
That means you are still assessing my motives on the assumption that I am using only the moral values you care about, or alternatively saying that my concerns about duty are not just of lower importance, but outright evil.
You certainly aren't leaving any room for friendly disagreement. Much as I earlier didn't because I kept assuming that everyone must be using the same moral framework that I was.
EDIT: Can I once again apologize for doing that to everyone? I'm feeling sorrier by the minute.
Umm... yes, I made assumptions about information. I've also said I'm willing to reconsider if there is new information.
Repeatedly.
Furthermore that's not what we were talking about. You accused me of making assumptions about peoples behavior, and in that area I have striven to avoid doing that. Quite a bit.
You really don't seem to have any interest in understanding my position at all, at this point it feels to me that you are more focused on "winning."
Sorry about that.
Last edited:
Huh... I didn't think about it being related to materials research.
Would aura magic have an effect on mundane materials? Or is mundane materials only effected by the direct input of magic into the material?
As for manipulating magic aura effect, wouldn't that be more likely an out growth of telepathic defenses rather than material research?
I guess it depends greatly on what a magical aura is...
Do we know? I just assumed that this was a telepathic effect, sort of like a one use mind control effect.
You seem to be thinking it's a physical manifestation of magic that... makes chemical changes in the body?
We might be both wrong, it could even be something more exotic then that... huh...
Maybe one thing to figure out first is if it effects the soul gem, or the body, or the mind. We probably will need to do a first principles test on what the aura is itself first...
That's a good point. I thought of that a while ago, but forgot to mention it.
So rather than effecting the aura, you would effect your self to limit the effect that the aura has on you?
Possible...
This is going to take a lot of brainstorming about ways to approach this.
Last edited:
I'll note that I think @Powerofmind 's position in this argument has been necessary and useful. Even @Elder Haman 's rants were necessary and useful, primarily for breaking up a lot of ingrained assumptions that we were all operating under.
However I think we've reached a point where we can let go of the more strident arguments, as each side has made their points, and set a proper level of awareness of their concerns.
So I'd ask that we let this issue die for the time being. There's a decent chance of helix posting an update tonight, so we can enjoy that, and get back to arguing normally in a couple days when we start trying to put together plans again.
However I think we've reached a point where we can let go of the more strident arguments, as each side has made their points, and set a proper level of awareness of their concerns.
So I'd ask that we let this issue die for the time being. There's a decent chance of helix posting an update tonight, so we can enjoy that, and get back to arguing normally in a couple days when we start trying to put together plans again.
Well... we are a little tight on the number of girls...
We are also already planning on adding delivery service to the restaurant to increase income. And trade deals.
If Serena is hired we are going to have address some monetary issues.
For the purpose of countering the effects of leaving the aura, yes. Since at that point there would be no aura to affect, it would be entirely a mental issue.
A specific usefulness of Powermind's arguments that I can think of was forcing me to consider the possibility that the Incubator information might be misleading instead of just generally correct with some holes around the edges.
That has made me more open to the idea that at some point we can relax safety precautions... assuming that there really is new information that changes our current information.