Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)

What should I do regarding a change in system?

  • Notgreat's proposed simplification of hunting, leave rest intact.

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • Chapter system vastly simplifying everything.

    Votes: 4 44.4%

  • Total voters
    9
  • Poll closed .
More to the point, if having access to everyone's cell phones and cell networks were sufficient to monitor everyone, then 9/11, the Boston bombings, Paris, San Bernadino, etc etc would never have happened IRL.
Except no human is monitoring all of them. Even monitoring a fraction takes a huge amount of resources. The NSA only ever directly reviewed a tiny fraction of total phone calls and emails. Incubators can monitor them all.

Um, even today less than half of the planet even has access to the Internet at all, let alone to the sort of ubiquitous self-surveilence that you seem to be talking about here. Even among the richest of first world nations, this sort of always-online lifestyle has only existed for roughly the last 10 years or so; it certainly hasn't been the dominant lifestyle for the last 10,000 years.
You were claiming before they don't adapt quickly enough. Why wouldn't they have changed systems?

The point is that the Incubators have capability to scrub people's memories and modify hardcopies and computer records. It's all about doing things in the most efficient fashion. They have to balance the cost of monitoring everyone vs the cost of modifying a couple people instead of one. Especially when breaches aren't that common to begin with.

Before electronic communications it was easier to keep local breaches local. Even if you monitored only a couple people in each village you'd catch breaches before they expanded beyond the village. In places without electronics that still applies.

While true, this isn't quite as important as it seems. This would be more relevant if the only thing the Incubators were doing was monitoring for and reversing masquerade violations, but they are doing a great deal more than that. In Serena's case in particular they have a prime source of new data on human emotions, and so even if they don't usually keep tabs on the locations, activities and thoughts of all major urban and rural population centers around the globe, it's fairly certain that they would be collecting data on her aura in particular.
You're talking about enormous energy expenditure to gain information on what though? I mean this is an imposed effect, it's nothing like natural emotions, I don't understand how it would be useful to the Incubators outside this specific case.

Well for one they have the capability of individually speaking with meguca groups, and informing them of the consequences of their actions. A lot of this data on spiraling Class 3s and the relation to high DS levels had to be coaxed a piece at a time from Kyubey; arguably that's a large part of the reason that these spiraling combats happened in the first place. I think you'd find a lot of meguca groups are less likely to go on poaching runs if they knew they were going to destroy the entire city within a year or so of doing so.
You're assuming a lot more logic from humans than I do. I mean humans have known in basically every war in history that both sides are going to be hurt badly. But they still think it's okay because they'll hurt the other side worse and come out on top. Humans have even used biological and chemical warfare before which had good ideas of hurting their own side. I have rather negative views on humanity.

Kyuubey didn't talk about things to you because it wasn't going to be beneficial to them. Your group having more deaths would be positive to them after all, and if you spawned a single Class 3 odds were good you'd take heavy casualties but take it down. That's not to say he wouldn't have brought it up to other groups that risked uncontrollable problems. In some cities things stabilize, in others one side or another keeps doing it anyway, another side retaliates in kind, and everything goes down hill.
 
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So, leaving aside longer term questions for a moment, is there any significant disagreement left over what we're doing this turn, or can we wrap up this vote cycle?
 
Teddy of course. Who would be disappointed in Robert?

"Drunkard" when she is feeling generous. "Lout, sot, disgrace to his dead brothers" when not. Mary refuses to believe any of the stories about JFK being a heavy drug user, or about his numerous affairs "Who would cheat on such a pretty wife, it's all lies." Basically JFK died young and stayed forever pure in her memory. Teddy was around long enough for her to realize several unsavory truths about the Kennedy family, and so she blames it all on him.

World War I: That Klan loving warmonger Wilson got us into a war we had no point in being in. Lied to us too, saying he wouldn't do it. Damn Southerner. Born in Virgina you know.

World War II: America Saves The World From Evil! Why doesn't everyone appreciate America more? No gratitude in the youngsters these days.
What is her opinion on the wars in the Middle East?
 
You can't have both. Either you treat Serena as an outside factor despite taking her on in the group, or you treat her as an integral member of the group when determining her admission. To do both implies you would arbitrarily change all of the rules regarding her when she arrives, as she switches from outsider to member. Would you really make such an arbitrary change?
I find this objection bizarre.

It's not arbitrary.

It's natural, and we apply this principle all the time.

Currently Serena is not a member of our group. We are discussing negotiating her becoming a member of our group.

Obviously we need to consider our obligations to our current group members before accepting any agreement. Serena in considering our offer needs to consider her well being and the well being of the girls in her group. Once we do make an agreement, then Serena is part of our group and so now we have obligations to her as well as to the girls she brings with her. Just as Serena now has obligations to us.

What I just described is how fealty relationships have worked throughout human history.
 
I believe most of us had settled on trying to recruit Serena?
Mostly, although I'm losing some of that sagacity the more I talk to @inverted_helix about the Incubators and their competence level. The more I find out about how little attention they pay to Earth and their own long-term projects and research, the more I wonder if they even have any proper data on Serena's aura at all, or if they're just spouting off assumptions they made without having any rigorous analysis to back them up.

For hyper-advanced, space-faring, emotionless aliens who seem to delight in creating scrupulously, technically correct yet fantastically misleading statements, these Incubators have remarkably shoddy quality assurance checkers. :)
 
Obviously we need to consider our obligations to our current group members before accepting any agreement. Serena in considering our offer needs to consider her well being and the well being of the girls in her group. Once we do make an agreement, then Serena is part of our group and so now we have obligations to her as well as to the girls she brings with her. Just as Serena now has obligations to us.

What I just described is how fealty relationships have worked throughout human history.
The problem is that you're never actually making her or her group part of the Serenes. She, according to you, must be held to a wholly different set of loyalties than the Serenes, and I have to once again point out that this will be obvious to her and our girls, and they will not treat each other like friends or even allies, because you don't see her as one, and don't treat her as one, either. Clearly, you don't even trust her enough to believe her own word on how her powers affect people.

Consider that Japan isn't the only country in the world with totally abandoned tracts of land, and that for Serena's group, they can probably get away with hunting much less than others due to the aura. If she wanted to seclude herself from the world to avoid so much as accidentally brushing someone with her aura, she could do it, but doesn't, because actual, physical human contact is more important than you seem to think it is, especially for her. She is a desperate, disenfranchised, depressed and emotionally unstable child who, by circumstance, cannot form any lasting or meaningful relationships except with a few people that she will always be reminded of her first accidental kills around.

Your answer to that is to 'listen' to her description of her power, and then never ever let anyone see her ever again, to never let her leave a cage not of her design, and to be treated like a leper. You further break all sense by claiming that it's perfectly safe to experiment with her aura, on people, on our girls, when it's in anchored form, and expect her to provide you with those anchors. Now, not only is she a leper, you want the parts that fall off to see if they still infect the people that touch them.

You posit that your position is only reasonable. It's contradictory and inhumane. You claim to extend to her the same trust you extend to the Serenes, yet ignore her own restrictions and impose harsher ones. You claim to owe her the same loyal duty as the rest of the Serenes, yet make only token efforts to ensure her happiness and well-being. You claim to support the first two contradictions by saying that her aura is too dangerous to enter, let alone experiment with, and then blithely propose to experiment with her aura anyway, all but asking her to supply the materials for it.

The question then, is not if she reacts violently, but when.
 
I see Serena is still a very controversial topic. I think getting her to be a part of SIMP to be a non-starter at this point due to everyone's differing ideas/ideals. Hire her to help with Tokyo, compensate her generously, and then let her go her own way.
 
Mostly, although I'm losing some of that sagacity the more I talk to @inverted_helix about the Incubators and their competence level. The more I find out about how little attention they pay to Earth and their own long-term projects and research, the more I wonder if they even have any proper data on Serena's aura at all, or if they're just spouting off assumptions they made without having any rigorous analysis to back them up.

For hyper-advanced, space-faring, emotionless aliens who seem to delight in creating scrupulously, technically correct yet fantastically misleading statements, these Incubators have remarkably shoddy quality assurance checkers. :)
You can have a better net profit with a lower total revenue. Reducing costs is every bit as important a part of profit making as increasing revenue.

You think that they should spend any time there's a potential for greater profit, but that spending itself has to be accounted for in consideration of the profit that it will generate.

If you end up spending 10,000 to make an additional 100, it was a negative result. Better to not spend and make slightly less for a better net profit.

If you have the tools to reverse something that's happened (like a masquerade breach), it can be cheaper to let that happen and then reverse it after the fact than to spend on prevention. It's the same judgement that health departments have to make all the time in terms of whether preventative treatment on the entire population is worth the cost compared to treating a few cases of the illness. Except without the emotional investment of thinking about the impact on the lives in more than a profit standpoint.

Every expense has to have an equal or greater positive expected payout. You're ascribing some level of scientific curiosity expecting them to investigate things for the sake of investigating them.
 
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I see Serena is still a very controversial topic. I think getting her to be a part of SIMP to be a non-starter at this point due to everyone's differing ideas/ideals. Hire her to help with Tokyo, compensate her generously, and then let her go her own way.

Now that things have been spelled out, Powerofmind seems to be the only one who actually has different expectations for what will be required. As far as I can tell he's the only one saying Serena needs to have face to face contact with people other than her already existing retinue. The rest of us think that she'll be fine with an internet connection and her existing retinue.
 
Now that things have been spelled out, Powerofmind seems to be the only one who actually has different expectations for what will be required. As far as I can tell he's the only one saying Serena needs to have face to face contact with people other than her already existing retinue. The rest of us think that she'll be fine with an internet connection and her existing retinue.
Out of justified concern that the vast majority of the things people are discussing be done about her will lead to a break away, violent or otherwise. We'd be wasting tens of thousands of dollars, dozens of meguca hours, and dozens or more GCU to 'include her' in the Serenes, but Haman's idea of inclusion that you seem to support now will end up with Serena either saying no thanks immediately, or leaving the group after we've already committed huge amounts of resources to her.
 
Consider that Japan isn't the only country in the world with totally abandoned tracts of land, and that for Serena's group, they can probably get away with hunting much less than others due to the aura. If she wanted to seclude herself from the world to avoid so much as accidentally brushing someone with her aura, she could do it, but doesn't, because actual, physical human contact is more important than you seem to think it is, especially for her. She is a desperate, disenfranchised, depressed and emotionally unstable child who, by circumstance, cannot form any lasting or meaningful relationships except with a few people that she will always be reminded of her first accidental kills around.
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It was established here that the reason serena did not seclude herself is that she still has to hunt. Apart from that, she pretty much was secluding herself; Baja californa is ridiculously empty.

Not going to judge the argument as a whole, not enough mental energy.
 
Except this isn't true either, because demons spawn everywhere there is human emotion; in fact the problem in Hong Kong could be the result of megucas not being present to keep the demon population in check (although we really should be pressing Kyubey to give an actual answer regarding his involvement; this whole situation has resulted from the Incubators' continued errors, and letting them slide by without comment is just asking for yet another disaster to appear in the future).

More than that, though, the Incubators don't understand human emotions, so they can't be certain that some human that isn't right next to an acting meguca won't pick up on one or more of the uncountable numbers of cascading effects of magic on humanity and the Earth, and suddenly need to be mind-wiped, even if they are far from any actual "active" meguca. From there the taint can cascade beyond the ability to easily recover, so long as you only monitor the area around 1-in-20-25,000 people.

I don't feel we have the firepower to be even attempting to push the Incubators around on anything. Not even verbally. I feel we ought to treat the amoral super powerful aliens with a lot more respect and hope they don't kill us.

As I mentioned before, I do think that there are ways to safely and ethically test a hope anchor. But a teleport anchor is also a very good idea. The main problem is that teleport anchors have range limitations that would prevent them from working for anyone who lives far away from Serena, so they wouldn't be able to save girls who spiral while in Iwata (or who live in other groups). So we still want to research hope anchors. But your idea of using teleport anchors is useful even for people who are far away from Serena, because they can be used in conjunction with the hope anchors as a last ditch effort to prevent a spiraling girl from dying without risking the girls around her.

Agreed. A teleport anchor is a good idea. I prefer the hope charm because that makes it possible to ship them all over the world, while teleportation requires the person be very local.

If you are specifying that there are different rules for those inside vs outside the group, and if you're creating rules that are explicitly based on Serena not being a member of the group, and those rules do not change after she joins, then by definition she is not being treated as a member of the group.

Given that there's no purpose in creating a rule set that you're immediately going to change, then if there is intent to have her join the group, the rules proposed must necessarily be consistent with Serena already being part of the group.

See, this is where different moral assumptions come in. You obviously think that equality is one of the supreme moral values. Having different rules for Serena is unfair.

I don't accept that Equality has that high a value. Sure, equality is important, but there are other values that need to be considered. Protection of our current girls is paramount among those. Thus the value of equality must be balanced with these other concerns.

It doesn't come up with other girls because most girls don't have powers like Serena's.Furthermore you present a false dilemma. That if we don't treat Serena completely equal with the other girls that we are fully excluding her from the group. I see it as a range, not a choice between two options.

So I perceive it as us approaching Serena, seeing that her powers make treating her like our other girls untenable. So we take the basic treatment that we give our girls, and modify it so as to ensure the protection of our current girls. Beyond that extent we are not treating Serena differently. Thus we have a defensible reason for the unequal treatment that is grounded in objective facts.

If Serena is willing to accept these modified expectations in order to join our group, then great! We have a new member. If not, then we can't come to an agreement, and we go our separate ways in peace.

The issue Kinematics and I have with Haman's selective ethics is that he wants to have Serena join our group, but at the same time keeping her completely apart from it, and treating them ethically different, all the while expecting Serena and our other girls to get along swimmingly 'because they're in the same meguca group'.

Again, this is not this dilemma between two extremes. This is about making open and consensual modifications to the expectations for how Serena will interact with us, as compared to the expectations given to normal girls. As long as we are above board from the beginning, and Serena agrees to it, I really don't see why you think resentment will be generated.

History is full of unequal relationships which are long running, and full of loyalty and friendship.

What is her opinion on the wars in the Middle East?

While I enjoy writing Mary, I really don't want to have to keep asking her her opinion about all sorts of random things.

Mostly, although I'm losing some of that sagacity the more I talk to @inverted_helix about the Incubators and their competence level. The more I find out about how little attention they pay to Earth and their own long-term projects and research, the more I wonder if they even have any proper data on Serena's aura at all, or if they're just spouting off assumptions they made without having any rigorous analysis to back them up.

For hyper-advanced, space-faring, emotionless aliens who seem to delight in creating scrupulously, technically correct yet fantastically misleading statements, these Incubators have remarkably shoddy quality assurance checkers. :)

That's why I want to treat her aura with a lot of caution.

The problem is that you're never actually making her or her group part of the Serenes. She, according to you, must be held to a wholly different set of loyalties than the Serenes, and I have to once again point out that this will be obvious to her and our girls, and they will not treat each other like friends or even allies, because you don't see her as one, and don't treat her as one, either. Clearly, you don't even trust her enough to believe her own word on how her powers affect people.

Again, this obsession with equality, as if equality is the driving moral force of the universe. It isn't. People make friends across unequal boundaries all the time. It's almost certain that some of the girls will feel pity for Serena and reach out for her because of it, others will be creeped out, and stay away from her, and still others will treat her like a normal person who happens to have a deadly communicable disease and thus is sealed away in the hospital and can't take visitors. And they will certainly see her as an ally, because she just saved Tokyo.

Furthermore, since our difference in treatment of her is based on objective facts and reasonable concerns about safety, it's even less likely that there will be any feelings of hostility. It's not like we are treating her differently because of some arbitrary and irrelevant issue.

Finally, did you miss my pointing out that I feel that Serena should have input in what our safety precautions are? I'm willing to take Serena's recommendations into account. I am not willing to throw all the responsibility on her and shirk our own responsibility to make sure her aura doesn't threaten our girls, or others. My initial position is based on the description of her power we got from the Incubators, if Serena has more information that would change the reasonable precautions, I am willing to listen.

Consider that Japan isn't the only country in the world with totally abandoned tracts of land, and that for Serena's group, they can probably get away with hunting much less than others due to the aura. If she wanted to seclude herself from the world to avoid so much as accidentally brushing someone with her aura, she could do it, but doesn't, because actual, physical human contact is more important than you seem to think it is, especially for her. She is a desperate, disenfranchised, depressed and emotionally unstable child who, by circumstance, cannot form any lasting or meaningful relationships except with a few people that she will always be reminded of her first accidental kills around.

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about Serena. Your main point seems to be that Serena must have already gotten an offer like this before. If that is the case, then she'll just say no, like she must have said no before.

Your answer to that is to 'listen' to her description of her power, and then never ever let anyone see her ever again, to never let her leave a cage not of her design, and to be treated like a leper. You further break all sense by claiming that it's perfectly safe to experiment with her aura, on people, on our girls, when it's in anchored form, and expect her to provide you with those anchors. Now, not only is she a leper, you want the parts that fall off to see if they still infect the people that touch them.

That is not what I am proposing at all. Now we are back to strawmen. Furthermore, my offer of the anchor idea is as an enticement to Serena, if she doesn't want to be a part of that, then I'm sure we can find some thing else that is useful for her to do. (If nothing else her girls must include a few barrier specialists who could make charms).

You posit that your position is only reasonable. It's contradictory and inhumane. You claim to extend to her the same trust you extend to the Serenes, yet ignore her own restrictions and impose harsher ones. You claim to owe her the same loyal duty as the rest of the Serenes, yet make only token efforts to ensure her happiness and well-being. You claim to support the first two contradictions by saying that her aura is too dangerous to enter, let alone experiment with, and then blithely propose to experiment with her aura anyway, all but asking her to supply the materials for it.

The question then, is not if she reacts violently, but when.

Again, you seem to making a ton of assumptions that are not in evidence. First you assume that Serena will find our suggested restriction unreasonable, yet that she will still agree to them, and then rebel against them later. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Furthermore you assume that her aura in charm form will be equally as dangerous as it normally is, which is not in evidence, and rather unlikely from our own experience with healing charms.

You seem to think that Serena is some kind of puppet who will have no choice but to accept our demands before finally cracking and attacking us.

I find it more likely that if she doesn't like our conditions that she will just reject our offer. And if she does accept our offer, and later decides that she doesn't want to follow the conditions any more, you also seem to think that a peaceful break up is not possible. Why would she violently attack people who have been paying for house and food for months/years? Instead wouldn't she come to us and say something like she has a better offer, and then we figure out if we can counter offer, and if we can't, send her off to her new place?

As long as she doesn't threaten us I don't see why it would turn violent.
 
We've gotten so focused on Serena that we haven't discussed other changes that Kinematic's has made that I didn't see anyone respond to.

First of all, we apparently need to purchase a cyrogenic freezer instead of a dewar.

Secondly, I object rather strongly to Kinematics giving away our tandem charms to Nagoya. By doing that we won't have any trade goods next month which to my mind completely deviates from what we were planning for our trade approach.

Finally, Kinematics is still talking Kyubey about Hong Kong, and not talking to him about Tokyo or getting any contact information of other organizations in Japan, which means no setup for the backup plan of Kesi.
 
I have to leave for work, but I really don't feel that we have decided on these things yet, as Kinematics made these changes and no one has discussed tham since everyone is focused on Serena.

Since there seems to be agreement that we can make reasonable restrictions on Serena's movement, I will see about adding Serena back to my plan during lunch.
 
I find the idea of applying ethics across everyone equally kind of an interesting ideal. But it doesn't really match with normal people. I mean pretty much everyone has groups of people that they value differently from others and would do different things to help.
But that's separate from the concept of an ethical Duty (or other such concept). Nor does ethics apply to every action taken. Nor is every action taken ethical (where such can be evaluated). Nor does everyone apply their supposed ethical model consistently (which may in practice mean that it's effectively a different ethical model). And of course it's also affected by "ability to act" (ie: you'll tend to have more options available to help someone that you're close to than a complete stranger).

Caveat: True universality almost certainly does not exist. However a moral stratagem that does not get supplanted by something better must be at least weakly stable (ie: not supplanted by any significant alternative stratagem, even if it does not outcompete all alternatives), which means it should be applicable in almost all contexts. IE: essentially universal.

Medical ethics is an example of a narrowly-focused universal type. A military doctor will (should) treat an enemy soldier, because his primary Duty is to save lives, with no specific differentiation on who a given person is. Being a universal type, it has long-term stability as an ethical model.

Journalistic ethics is another universal type, although it is undergoing a bit of decay because of the increasing number of people who act as journalists who never took a college course in the Ethics of Journalism. The model itself is decently stable, but it has a weakness in transferring knowledge of the model to others.


Many ethical models aim for local optimizations rather than universal optimizations. It's both easier, and has higher potential (short-term) gain. However the extra gain implicitly carries with it greater loss, at the boundary between the local and the non-local. All groups that optimize for local are competing in a generally destructive manner with all non-local groups, because no group is going to cooperate with a system that is self-destructive to their own side. That means almost every local group will inevitably collapse as some other group finds the ideal way to compete with them.

A universal model has lower short-term gain, but is designed to compete in a non-destructive manner. It's pretty much necessarily a cooperative form. Its survival depends on whether it can shift the framing of any competition from the local (where the opponent risks destructive consequences) to the universal (where the opponent gains less in absolute terms, but doesn't risk destructive consequences, and thus gains more in relative terms).

The universal form is strongest amongst heavy competition, and weakest when there is no competition. In the former, a local optimization gains a great deal by reducing the amount of destructive competition. In the latter, with no other competition, a new local optimization loses nothing, and can gain more from not cooperating. The mistake a universalist might make is aiming for a grand unification. However unification leads to its downfall. Thus the preference is instead for many small, self-contained, semi-competitive entities (eg: many individual wards in Tokyo, rather than a unified Tokyo).

Conversely, a local optimization is weakest with lots of competition, and strongest without competition. Thus the common drive to eliminate the competition, absorb them, and grow to a grand unified power. However, to surivive, it must eliminate competition at all concept tiers. Attempting to do so is generally unstable. Further, full unification is again unstable (or in this case, stagnant), because all the massive growth that the local optimization gained was at the expense of the competition. Without competition to cannibalize, it can no longer grow.

Then take all that, and realize that it applies at every conceptual interaction level. The general cross-applicability of a universal form makes it significantly more efficient and adaptable than a local optimization form.
 
First of all, we apparently need to purchase a cyrogenic freezer instead of a dewar.
I plan to just leave it with the dewars. We can purchase the freezers once the research actually bears out our expectations, and we start mass-producing charms. There's no value in buying it this month vs next month. And the dewars can still be used for small-quantity transport.

Secondly, I object rather strongly to Kinematics giving away our tandem charms to Nagoya. By doing that we won't have any trade goods next month which to my mind completely deviates from what we were planning for our trade approach.
Product demonstration. Marketing. See the value of the product in action. You want people to buy, you show them what the product can do that makes it worth their money.

Finally, Kinematics is still talking Kyubey about Hong Kong, and not talking to him about Tokyo or getting any contact information of other organizations in Japan, which means no setup for the backup plan of Kesi.
Ethics, yo.

Every question put up for Kyuubey regarding Tokyo is redundant with either questions already asked and answered in thread, or other diplomacy actions.

However, I'll add it anyway, as supplementary to our normal actions.
 
See, this is where different moral assumptions come in. You obviously think that equality is one of the supreme moral values. Having different rules for Serena is unfair.
No, I said it was logically inconsistent. If you create rules based on the assumption that she is explicitly not part of the group, and enforce those rules after she joins, then she is being treated as not part of the group.

I did not say that rules created under the inclusive presumption must necessarily be exactly the same (ie: a matter of equality). I said that the rules must necessarily be consistent with Serena being part of the group, independently of whether she has actually joined yet or not.

So we take the basic treatment that we give our girls, and modify it so as to ensure the protection of our current girls. Beyond that extent we are not treating Serena differently. Thus we have a defensible reason for the unequal treatment that is grounded in objective facts.
This is basically what I said, which is different from what you originally said.

Again, you seem to making a ton of assumptions that are not in evidence. First you assume that Serena will find our suggested restriction unreasonable, yet that she will still agree to them, and then rebel against them later. That doesn't make much sense to me.
In a lot of ways, it goes back to my post a while ago relating to human psychology: that people will tend to behave in a way that will fulfill your expectations of them. Thus, if you treat them as a pariah to be afraid of, they will be the person you ought to be afraid of.

Furthermore you assume that her aura in charm form will be equally as dangerous as it normally is, which is not in evidence, and rather unlikely from our own experience with healing charms.
You can't claim evidence for something for which we have none. At this point, we have absolutely no idea if it's even possible to put her aura in a charm (it's not a spell, nor consciously controlled, so there's nothing to anchor in the first place), much less what effect it would have if we did manage to do so. The risks associated with such an object are a complete unknown, and while it's incorrect to claim that that means it's unsafe, neither can you claim that it actually is safe.

I find it more likely that if she doesn't like our conditions that she will just reject our offer. And if she does accept our offer, and later decides that she doesn't want to follow the conditions any more, you also seem to think that a peaceful break up is not possible.
Completely aside from whether it's a violent breakup, if Serena actually joins the Serenes, and then leaves, that would have serious negative consequences for us across the board, both internally and externally. If she leaves because of our actions, that's even worse.
 
See, this is where different moral assumptions come in. You obviously think that equality is one of the supreme moral values. Having different rules for Serena is unfair.

I don't accept that Equality has that high a value. Sure, equality is important, but there are other values that need to be considered. Protection of our current girls is paramount among those. Thus the value of equality must be balanced with these other concerns.

It doesn't come up with other girls because most girls don't have powers like Serena's.Furthermore you present a false dilemma. That if we don't treat Serena completely equal with the other girls that we are fully excluding her from the group. I see it as a range, not a choice between two options.
Then we have intrinsically different opinions on the value of equality, and free will. Your plan to 'contain' her, has never once used wording that implies any sort of unity with her or any level of personal freedom as long as she wishes to associate with us, and friendly contact is an afterthought, where the central purpose of said contact is control, rather than the fostering of friendly opinion. You suggest an authoritarian level of control of our girls in relation to Serena, a parent that denies their children access to an abstracted 'dangerous entertainment', providing reasons inadequate for the restrictive behavior, and an equally authoritarian level of restriction to Serena herself, with what amounts to house arrest as long as she's in Japan except to fight on our behalf.

So I perceive it as us approaching Serena, seeing that her powers make treating her like our other girls untenable. So we take the basic treatment that we give our girls, and modify it so as to ensure the protection of our current girls. Beyond that extent we are not treating Serena differently. Thus we have a defensible reason for the unequal treatment that is grounded in objective facts.

If Serena is willing to accept these modified expectations in order to join our group, then great! We have a new member. If not, then we can't come to an agreement, and we go our separate ways in peace.
There is no element of your treatment of Serena that can be compared to any element of our treatment of our own girls, except in passing, or when twisted from your intended purpose for the treatment.
-House arrest except to fight for us, compared to at request communal living and non-mandatory demon hunting.
-Total control of physical position and movement, enforced through guilt (because you'd never risk physical confronting her to make such enforcements), compared to freedom except during times of employment.
-She and her group are the only individuals whose basic management plan includes punishment in the entire Imperium (This is intended to include punishments given to other girls who enter her aura unauthorized).
-Contact provided only through electronic means except in extenuating circumstances where that is completely impossible while any other physical contact is a punishable offense, compared to social non-interference. This could be barely construed to be a form of contact freedom, except that the intended purpose of said contact is to increase control of Serena, rather than increase her social pool.

There is, from what I can see, no common element other than giving her the ability to talk to people, and then, the only people she knows are members of the Serenes, so you are still taking total command of her social life. Your claim that you plan to model Serena's treatment after the treatment we give the other Serenes is false, in literally every way. You have a defensible reason for the unequal treatment, but it is not adequate based on the very facts you use to defend it. Physical contact is not permanently destructive, and this is empirically true. Physical contact is not even particularly destructive in the short term as the damage that is caused by managed physical contact can't even be abstracted to the level of a full game turn.

Again, this is not this dilemma between two extremes. This is about making open and consensual modifications to the expectations for how Serena will interact with us, as compared to the expectations given to normal girls. As long as we are above board from the beginning, and Serena agrees to it, I really don't see why you think resentment will be generated.

History is full of unequal relationships which are long running, and full of loyalty and friendship.
To compare your proposed relationship to Serena is to compare Europe's relationship with post-WW1 Germany or the modern United States with Japan. No, I take that back. It's worse. They benefit in no way from the relationship and anything they produce is totally controlled by the other party. They are vassals, not members. Subordinates, not equals, even to the lowest of the Serenes.

You even put non-members above her in terms of personal importance, given you feel it necessary to remove them from her path even in a class 3 hellhole like Tokyo. You say that you have loyalty to her and duty to her as a member of the Serenes should she join, but if she were to join, you would have stronger loyalties to unaffiliated meguca who would be significantly less deserving of such loyalty, given they, at least, brought their problems on themselves, refusing to think ahead at all. Serena has an excuse. At least her wish couldn't have been expected to murder people, given it was probably worded along the lines of 'I wish I could give people hope'.

Again, this obsession with equality, as if equality is the driving moral force of the universe. It isn't. People make friends across unequal boundaries all the time. It's almost certain that some of the girls will feel pity for Serena and reach out for her because of it, others will be creeped out, and stay away from her, and still others will treat her like a normal person who happens to have a deadly communicable disease and thus is sealed away in the hospital and can't take visitors. And they will certainly see her as an ally, because she just saved Tokyo.

Furthermore, since our difference in treatment of her is based on objective facts and reasonable concerns about safety, it's even less likely that there will be any feelings of hostility. It's not like we are treating her differently because of some arbitrary and irrelevant issue.
Why would they pity her? You expect them to keep track of her movements constantly as though she is untrustworthy. She is the only reason that the entire Imperium would have an official system of punishment, and the very friends you expect her to make would just as soon become her wardens should you hand down punishment.

Finally, did you miss my pointing out that I feel that Serena should have input in what our safety precautions are? I'm willing to take Serena's recommendations into account. I am not willing to throw all the responsibility on her and shirk our own responsibility to make sure her aura doesn't threaten our girls, or others. My initial position is based on the description of her power we got from the Incubators, if Serena has more information that would change the reasonable precautions, I am willing to listen.
What input? Despite the honest input given by the incubators, you suggest total denial of physical contact, even to provide food to her. If she were to definitively state that there were no long term side effects and no risk of a spiral to Serenes so long as you don't enter the aura for more than six hours in two months, would you ever allow anyone to do so?

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about Serena. Your main point seems to be that Serena must have already gotten an offer like this before. If that is the case, then she'll just say no, like she must have said no before.
I'm not assuming she's gotten a similar offer before. I'm assuming she could very easily stockpile huge amounts of GCU given how her power works, and simply settle in an isolated place until it becomes necessary to hunt again. She doesn't do that, so she clearly has friends or family she's trying to stay in contact with the only way she knows how, given she can't really settle down long enough to work for cash for a long-range communication device.

Furthermore, my offer of the anchor idea is as an enticement to Serena, if she doesn't want to be a part of that, then I'm sure we can find some thing else that is useful for her to do. (If nothing else her girls must include a few barrier specialists who could make charms).
You want the anchors so that you can test them for their effectiveness, either as spiral-abating devices or as power-boosters. The only way to do that is to use them on our girls. If that's not experimentation despite your cries against doing such with her personally, I don't know what experimentation means, and please show me the dictionary definition. Even if Serena agrees, you're playing a pretty obvious double-standard here.

Again, you seem to making a ton of assumptions that are not in evidence. First you assume that Serena will find our suggested restriction unreasonable, yet that she will still agree to them, and then rebel against them later. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Furthermore you assume that her aura in charm form will be equally as dangerous as it normally is, which is not in evidence, and rather unlikely from our own experience with healing charms.

You seem to think that Serena is some kind of puppet who will have no choice but to accept our demands before finally cracking and attacking us.

I find it more likely that if she doesn't like our conditions that she will just reject our offer. And if she does accept our offer, and later decides that she doesn't want to follow the conditions any more, you also seem to think that a peaceful break up is not possible. Why would she violently attack people who have been paying for house and food for months/years? Instead wouldn't she come to us and say something like she has a better offer, and then we figure out if we can counter offer, and if we can't, send her off to her new place?

As long as she doesn't threaten us I don't see why it would turn violent.
Alright, she'll say no entirely instead of joining and leaving later. She'll leave peacefully instead of violently. She still says no because you can't control your fear of her ability. She still leaves peacefully, wasting thousands of dollars, dozens of meguca-hours, and dozens of GCU, because you refused to hear her out when she inevitably asked to have her position re-examined and her restrictions lightened.

As to my assumption that her charm-aura will be equally dangerous... healing is still healing, teleportation is still teleportation. They merely need their final destination pointed out in advance, as they are undirected. In the same way, Serena's hope aura is still Serena's hope aura. Undirected, it's still an all-directions burst. Making it portable is the difference between licking a frog and bottling the frog slime and licking it later.
 
Then we have intrinsically different opinions on the value of equality, and free will. Your plan to 'contain' her, has never once used wording that implies any sort of unity with her or any level of personal freedom as long as she wishes to associate with us, and friendly contact is an afterthought, where the central purpose of said contact is control, rather than the fostering of friendly opinion. You suggest an authoritarian level of control of our girls in relation to Serena, a parent that denies their children access to an abstracted 'dangerous entertainment', providing reasons inadequate for the restrictive behavior, and an equally authoritarian level of restriction to Serena herself, with what amounts to house arrest as long as she's in Japan except to fight on our behalf.

What's wrong with being authoritarian? When a person is intrinsically a danger to others it's only natural for the authority to have the responsibility to prevent harm.

This is what governments are for.

You seem to be arguing for anarchy.

And again you call it house arrest when it isn't.

Nor is authoritarianism at significant odds with liberty.

There is no threat or coercion, therefor this cannot be considered a constraint on Serena's liberty. She has to agree to this. If she doesn't agree then we don't have an agreement. We're not capturing her, nor are we imprisoning her. If she wants to leave she can, but then we won't pay her anymore.

You seem to think we have some duty to Serena to provide for her and that we are not allowed to ask for anything in return.

There is, from what I can see, no common element other than giving her the ability to talk to people, and then, the only people she knows are members of the Serenes, so you are still taking total command of her social life. Your claim that you plan to model Serena's treatment after the treatment we give the other Serenes is false, in literally every way. You have a defensible reason for the unequal treatment, but it is not adequate based on the very facts you use to defend it. Physical contact is not permanently destructive, and this is empirically true. Physical contact is not even particularly destructive in the short term as the damage that is caused by managed physical contact can't even be abstracted to the level of a full game turn.

Stop telling me my position. You are completely wrong in your description. I propose talking with Serena about our concerns to see if we can come to agreement, and somehow you think this is force. It's not.

To compare your proposed relationship to Serena is to compare Europe's relationship with post-WW1 Germany or the modern United States with Japan. No, I take that back. It's worse. They benefit in no way from the relationship and anything they produce is totally controlled by the other party. They are vassals, not members. Subordinates, not equals, even to the lowest of the Serenes.

You even put non-members above her in terms of personal importance, given you feel it necessary to remove them from her path even in a class 3 hellhole like Tokyo. You say that you have loyalty to her and duty to her as a member of the Serenes should she join, but if she were to join, you would have stronger loyalties to unaffiliated meguca who would be significantly less deserving of such loyalty, given they, at least, brought their problems on themselves, refusing to think ahead at all. Serena has an excuse. At least her wish couldn't have been expected to murder people, given it was probably worded along the lines of 'I wish I could give people hope'.

We are offering to rent Serena a house, pay all her expenses, and provide her with grief cubes.

And somehow you compare that unfavorably with the occupation of an enemy after a war.

Basically you don't value group loyalty, you don't value authority, and you think liberty and equality trump all other considerations. Therefor Serena's equal treatment is more important to you than the safety of others.

Instead of accepting that I have additional moral values that have validity you assign me the motivation of malice and enmity.
 
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