Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)

What should I do regarding a change in system?

  • Notgreat's proposed simplification of hunting, leave rest intact.

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • Chapter system vastly simplifying everything.

    Votes: 4 44.4%

  • Total voters
    9
  • Poll closed .
So, to summarize, we have an invisible sniper, and Kyoko has no ranged or detection capabilities.

This sounds like it calls for a tactical withdrawal.

No, but Kyouko does have stealth. We are finally in contact with the enemy, so I think we want to maintain the contact until we figure out who this is. I say we resort to the old original Rosa Phantasmia and get multiple fake Kyouko's running about while the real Kyouko goes for concealment. Then we can decide if we can summon Kyouko Clone or not.

Hey guys, what do you think about deploying firearms ourselves?

1: This is probably a magical girl's ranged attack, not a mundane gun.

2: Unknown if demons will be impacted by mundane weapons the way witches were

3: Probably would be useful against other magical girls, but that is a consideration for later.
 
It's fortunate that the two backup Veterans who are on their way are both stealth specialists.

Perhaps something like this:
[] Use Rosa Phantasmia to create multiple doppelgangers in order to confuse the sniper.
[] Continue evasive maneuvers: low to the ground, erratic bursts of speed, randomly changing directions every few seconds, keeping to cover.
[] Once you shake the sniper, stop running and focus on hiding, using illusion magic for camouflage.
[] Try to locate the position of the sniper. She will probably be located on high ground between here and the demon spawn point. Also be alert for any other accomplices in the area.
[] Summon Kyoclone if you have enough focus to do so while remaining hidden and alert.
[] If you can do so while remaining hidden, loop back around to the starting position and pick up the cellphone.

@inverted_helix what kind of cover can Kyouko see in her immediate vicinity?
 
Ayako might be able to help pinpoint our attackers location. We also want to make sure she doesn't have backup. If we can keep her focused on us and prevent hr from moving, we may be able to get our backup to sneak up on her. A teleporter will help with getting the backup in on time.
 
Ayako might be able to help pinpoint our attackers location. We also want to make sure she doesn't have backup. If we can keep her focused on us and prevent hr from moving, we may be able to get our backup to sneak up on her. A teleporter will help with getting the backup in on time.
Note that we cannot coordinate with Ayako/Mariko/Sora or call for assistance unless we first retrieve the cellphone (or break into a house or mug someone to use their phone).
 
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Info that we want to get: Is the attacker just well-hidden, or at range? Ambusher or sniper? Kyouko should be able to get a sense of that based on where the attacks are hitting. If they move to follow Kyouko through a rapid arc, the ambusher is close; if the attacks tend to hit the same side of obstacles as Kyouko moves, it's probably a sniper.

That gives us a baseline for how we apply evasive patterns.

The phone was dropped behind the first tree Kyouko hid behind. That means it's out of line-of-sight of our ambusher, so we shouldn't have to worry about it being shot up before we can get back to it. It also makes it relatively easy to pick up again.

After that, we can use Haman's ideas of Rossa clones acting as a distraction while we either go back for the phone, or try to summon Kyouclone again.

However, 2 minutes to summon her is a lonnnng time during an ambush. Possible, but risky. I would probably prefer to go for the phone so that we can coordinate with the others. Ayako has almost certainly warned them about the ambush, so they should already be under stealth themselves, though there's a much higher risk right now of them also being ambushed.

@inverted_helix : Is standard QB-Network telepathy available? Any reason we wouldn't use that? (Distance? Interference?)

Also: How are you ruling that Kyouko's original Rossa Phantasma works? From what I recall of the manga, she can create a large number of them that all mimic her movements, and they all can do damage when attacking; or she can create one that she used to try to fake Mami out during her fight, that she had direct control over. But I might be misremembering, and it might be different from how you're treating it here anyway. Can she create several of them that can all follow simple directives, without needing the direct focus that would prevent summoning Kyouclone?
 
She's in the trees, so that's providing her cover right now.
Unfortunately, the trees don't make for very good cover:
You keep moving as a hole appears in the tree in the next moment and splinters of wood blast out of it.
We could try to make it to the houses that are a fair distance away. That would at least block line-of-sight better than the trees, even if it wouldn't do much to block the projectiles.
 
One thing to note? The stuff about magical girls not aging? That's actually pretty contradicted by the show itself. Take a look at the flashback for when Mami made her wish. See how she looks there? She's clearly aged a few years since then.
 
@inverted_helix : Is standard QB-Network telepathy available? Any reason we wouldn't use that? (Distance? Interference?)
Distance is too great. Same reason you needed cell phones at all.
I beleive the ruling is that telepathy is too short range in this quest. Based on the scene where Madoka and Sakaya find Charlotte's seed but can't contact her, even though Kyuubey is right there to provide telepathy.
Correct.

If they move to follow Kyouko through a rapid arc, the ambusher is close; if the attacks tend to hit the same side of obstacles as Kyouko moves, it's probably a sniper.
The latter.

Also: How are you ruling that Kyouko's original Rossa Phantasma works? From what I recall of the manga, she can create a large number of them that all mimic her movements, and they all can do damage when attacking; or she can create one that she used to try to fake Mami out during her fight, that she had direct control over. But I might be misremembering, and it might be different from how you're treating it here anyway. Can she create several of them that can all follow simple directives, without needing the direct focus that would prevent summoning Kyouclone?
So I'm looking through the Different Story manga scenes with it, but they don't make a whole lot of sense. I mean she appears to have them not even mimic her actions but act independently. And in the church fight they appear to maybe do damage. But it doesn't make too much logical sense. Since if they don't have to mimic her actions, and they do damage, why the hell does she ever include her main body in the fight? I'd be carrying a pavise shield and hiding behind it as far away as I could be while the phantoms fight. I'm just house ruling that they don't actually do damage and she's just faking it out with illusions.

One thing to note? The stuff about magical girls not aging? That's actually pretty contradicted by the show itself. Take a look at the flashback for when Mami made her wish. See how she looks there? She's clearly aged a few years since then.
This is a bit of fusion sort of universe. I'm aware I've made some deviations from canon (most notably Mami's power level is suppressed a fair bit for balance reasons). We're way off the canon tracks here. Though it's worth pointing out that in Different Story manga Mami looks pretty much identical when she's a brand new contract. Not sure if I'm allowed to link to it since it's copyrighted, but you can clearly see Mami's appearance when she's a brand new magical girl in Different Story the first half of chapter 1. I'm pretty sure that's where To The Stars (and by extension me) pulled that element from.

Her appearance when she made the wish might have been impacted by her being half dead.

1: This is probably a magical girl's ranged attack, not a mundane gun.
Mami has improbably accurate muskets, and in To The Stars there's a magical girl in the main character's first demon hunt that has a howitzer as their magical weapon. So this isn't necessarily unreasonable.
 
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Mami has improbably accurate muskets, and in To The Stars there's a magical girl in the main character's first demon hunt that has a howitzer as their magical weapon. So this isn't necessarily unreasonable.
?

Yeah, my point is that we don't know the exact form of the ranged attack, it could be a magical gun, could be a freaking magical powered slingshot with exploding ammunition. But it probably is not a mundane gun stolen from the Yakuza or something. Possible, yes, but not probable.

Think I'm ready to vote:

[X] Use Rosa Phantasmia to create multiple doppelgangers in order to confuse the sniper.
[X] Continue evasive maneuvers: low to the ground, erratic bursts of speed, randomly changing directions every few seconds, keeping to cover.
[X] Once you shake the sniper, use illusion magic for camouflage.
[X] If you can do so while remaining hidden, loop back around to the starting position and pick up the cellphone.
[X] Try to locate the position of the sniper. She will probably be located on high ground between here and the demon spawn point. Also be alert for any other accomplices in the area.

Holding off on summoning KyoClone until we have a better grasp of the tactical situation.
 
This is a bit of fusion sort of universe. I'm aware I've made some deviations from canon (most notably Mami's power level is suppressed a fair bit for balance reasons). We're way off the canon tracks here. Though it's worth pointing out that in Different Story manga Mami looks pretty much identical when she's a brand new contract. Not sure if I'm allowed to link to it since it's copyrighted, but you can clearly see Mami's appearance when she's a brand new magical girl in Different Story the first half of chapter 1. I'm pretty sure that's where To The Stars (and by extension me) pulled that element from.

Her appearance when she made the wish might have been impacted by her being half dead.

I consider the scene were she makes her wish to be ambiguous (probably deliberately so). Mami is crumpled up inside a wrecked car. Due to the angle it is hard to get a good idea of her height or breast size, so it's impossible to know if she aged in appearance since then.

Of course, another factor is that even under helix's canon, magical girls stop aging is not a precise description of what happens. What happens is that a magical girl's body is now separated from her body and so no longer grows instinctively, instead it stays as it is in the mind of the magical girl.

For most girls this is just pedantic. Their image of what they look like and how their body is based on what they see in the mirror, there is no difference between reality at contracting age, and the image in their mind.

This isn't a new idea, I saw a fanfiction for Teen Titans once that played with this idea for Beast Boy. As a transformer with a malleable body, why wouldn't he just stay the same when he's in Beast Boy form?

However, some people actually will have a different image in mind then reality.

I for example, always felt older than I was when I was a kid and felt mismatched with my body. I even asked some of my friends and they didn't feel that way. My mental model for myself matched what I ended up at in my early twenties.

Possibly Mami's mental model envisioned herself as older and more maternal - this actually wouldn't be out of bounds for a girl who has suddenly lost her mother and has to become completely independent. Thus Mami's mental model might have ended up as being half way between where she was, and her mother's appearance.

This kind of thing isn't even totally fictional. Girls without fathers in the home enter puberty an average of two years earlier than girls with fathers. This might be due to some link between mental states and puberty triggers.
 
I'm just house ruling that they don't actually do damage and she's just faking it out with illusions.
OK, pure illusion, independently active (not simple mimicry).

Elder Haman's proposal seems solid.

We want to get back in contact with the group, which means grabbing the cell phone. We don't have a reasonable method of getting time to summon Kyouclone, so we'll be handling this solo for a bit.

Illusion/stealth magic gives us lots of options for evading attack and confusing the sniper.

We should consider the implications of having a sniper after us, though.

  1. They're aware of Kyouko's strength (elite), so don't want to get into a melee fight with her. This is implied from their use of a sniper.
  2. They're not aware of Kyouko's powers (stealth/illusion). Which makes sense, since Kyouko almost never uses them. She usually works as a pure melee fighter.
  3. A sniper's secondary duty (if they can't eliminate the target) is to keep the target pinned down. This is most likely an attempt to keep Kyouko isolated from the rest of the group.
  4. A sniper doesn't need personal support. They're an isolated unit. They might have someone on the roof with her as backup/cover, but are just as likely to have her solo, and let her run if things look bad for her.
  5. The sabotage unit only needs a couple people, at most.
  6. If they're making an assault where they expect to take on an elite, they'll need quite a few more people.
  7. Thus, there must be a larger group that's on the move that we need to be aware of.
  8. That larger group is almost certainly going to target the handful of other girls we have in the area: Mariko, Ayako and Sora.
  9. Special note: Ayako and Mariko are both from this area. They're two of the three we coerced into joining (along with Akane). That could be either good or bad for them; the ambush group may especially want to eliminate them, or they might treat them as units to be 'rescued'.
  10. Ayako is vulnerable if she stays at the apartment as overwatch. However if Mariko and Sora are ambushed, Ayako is almost certainly going to join them. In this case, we don't want to discourage that; let the vets stay together as much as possible.

@Elder Haman : I would suggest that getting the cell phone back is a top priority, not an "if we can" priority.

If the sniper loses track of Kyouko, then Kyouko will almost certainly lose track of the sniper. With the revelation of Kyouko's illusion powers, that sniper is going to bug out, which means she's an ongoing threat for anything else we try. I think we really need to take her down. Preferably before she can alert anyone else, but there's no way to guarantee that.

We can go one of two ways with the Rossa Phantasma: Either flood the area with Kyoukos to make it impossible to determine which is the real one; or create a handful of hidden clones that each individually move around, but not have more than one visible at a time. That can show up as a fake teleport effect.

If we go for the mass of clones, the jig is up on Kyouko's powers, and the sniper is likely to retreat when she can't determine where the real Kyouko is. If we make it look like short-range teleportation, that will disrupt the sniper, but give her just enough of a feeling that she's still in control that she will likely stay to try to keep Kyouko pinned down.

The other possibility is that they have a sniper/clairvoyant team, with the clairvoyant giving the sniper aiming info (or possibly even having the sniper be clairvoyant herself, as that would mesh well with a job as sniper). If that's the case, the faux-teleport won't work, really; they'll know they need to retreat.

We could still do it, though... If she can actually see Kyouko, use the fade-out trick (EG: invisibility, chameleon effect, or thermoptic suits from Ghost in the Shell) while creating a clone elsewhere. The clone makes a sprint, then does the same thing in their new hiding spot, while yet another clone appears at a new location. That should work against the most likely type of opponent we're dealing with.

At the same time, make it back to the cell phone, check in with what's going on, then have Kyouko make an attempt to ambush our sniper — Kyouko can work on fast progress, while the clones make slower apparent progress towards the sniper's location.


Thoughts on that approach?
 
I like the idea of having an illusion clone sprint to other cover opposite from the phone, and we try going invisible to retrieve the phone.
 
We're alone against an unknown force. I don't want to mess around taking chances. I say we just use our illusion ability. If they retreat, then we will be able to get back to the phone just fine (notice I put it as a higher priority than tracking the sniper).

Once we have the phone, and hopefully a location on the sniper, we can call Ayako to coordinate better. We need the rest of the available Elites and Vets down here in Iwata. We can also learn if the other girls are coming under attack, in which case we need to let this sniper get away and get back to help the others.

You're probably right that this attack on Kyouko was hoping for a quick kill, and baring that, keep her busy so they can attack the rest of our Itawa team. Which makes it all the more essential that we end the thing with this sniper quick, which means going with the straight forward tactic of lots of Kyouko illusions.

If we are very lucky, and we have time, and the team back at base are not under attack, we can summon KyoClone and have her try to track the sniper back to the source while Kyouko rushes back to join up with the vets.

At this point I think we ought to demote the importance of responding to the demons, and focus on the source of the threat.

Fortunately Kyouko is calling the shots here, and that is completely in character for her.

I'd say our priorities are:

1: Get our girls out of danger
- a: Kyouko escapes the sniper
- b: Kyouko reestablishes communication with base team (recover cellphone)
- c: Kyouko joins the main team around our base (as that is the most likely second strike point)
- d: Reinforcements sent from Mitakihara

2: Identify the source of this threat
- a: Track the sniper?
- b: Get clairvoyants involved?

I feel Kinematic's ideas prioritize our secondary goals over our primary goals. So I feel they would be a mistake.
 
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Hmmm. I dislike giving away useful information this early in the game, but you're right, taking out the sniper as outlined above will eat up a fair bit of our time, and we want to get everyone together as quickly as possible.

Aside: Let's consider other information they might have about us. From the Kaori incident, we can probably assume that they're aware that we have multiple teleporters. They will certainly know about Mami, but they don't have to confront her directly. They're unlikely to have more than a general idea of what other powers we have available, but then everything beyond that is basic typical stuff.

If they want to take out our team, they also need to cut off communications to prevent reinforcements from coming in (or cause an incident in the main area to keep people occupied). There's no reasonable way for them to cut off phone communications, other than destroying the cell phones themselves. The more time they have, the more risk of our side getting isolated.

We can also consider a "What Would Kyouko Do?" approach: We can take the Phantasma horde one step further in the aggressive direction — flat out charge towards the snipers with an army of clones (can we manage a hundred or so? several dozen, at the least), forcing her to panic and flee (if possible). Abandon the sneaky and just take out the sniper hard and fast.

An ideal take-out would be a spear through the chest, maybe cold-cock her, knock away any communications devices, then take her soul gem, collect the devices, and simply run off; can recover the body later.

Assuming the attacking group is limited in the same way we are, on communications, that also gives us an opportunity to gain access to their network (cell phones, radio headsets, whatever) if Kyouko can take her out before she can run away, which would be a huge boon.

However we still want that cell phone, and going back and forth to retrieve it after the sniper is just eating up time.


Possible revision to Haman's:

[X] Use Rosa Phantasma to create multiple doppelgangers in order to confuse the sniper.
[X] Continue evasive maneuvers: low to the ground, erratic bursts of speed, randomly changing directions every few seconds, keeping to cover.
[X] Once you shake the sniper (ie: they're tracking one of the phantasms), use illusion magic for camouflage.
[X] Loop back around to the starting position and pick up the cellphone (staying hidden as much as possible).
[X] Try to locate the position of the sniper. She will probably be located on high ground between here and the demon spawn point. Also be alert for any other accomplices in the area.
[X] Mass surge of phantasm clones, charging the sniper's position (unless other accomplices have been found).
-[X] Force her to break and run, but eliminate her if you can catch up before she gets too far.
-[X] Incapacitate, retrieve any comm devices, and take the soul gem.
[X] Catch back up with Ayako and the other vets.


The last line is probably a bit much for the vote; we'll be lucky to reach that point in the update. Still..
 
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[] Use Rosa Phantasma to create multiple doppelgangers in order to confuse the sniper.
[] Continue evasive maneuvers: low to the ground, erratic bursts of speed, randomly changing directions every few seconds, keeping to cover.
[] Once you shake the sniper (ie: they're tracking one of the phantasms), use illusion magic for camouflage.
[] Loop back around to the starting position and pick up the cellphone (staying hidden as much as possible).
[] Try to locate the position of the sniper. She will probably be located on high ground between here and the demon spawn point. Also be alert for any other accomplices in the area.
-[] If the sniper is alone, use phantasm clones, while we stay hidden with illusion, charging the sniper's position
-[] Force her to break and run, but attack her if you can catch up before she gets too far.
-[] Incapacitate, retrieve any enemy comm devices, and take the soul gem.

Hmm... this is my adjustment of it. A far more aggressive course of action... but in character and probably not too risky unless we are up against an Elite. If the enemy is a clairvoyant this could be pretty dangerous.

I don't know... I'm gonna sleep on it.
 
Aside: Let's consider other information they might have about us. From the Kaori incident, we can probably assume that they're aware that we have multiple teleporters. They will certainly know about Mami, but they don't have to confront her directly. They're unlikely to have more than a general idea of what other powers we have available, but then everything beyond that is basic typical stuff.

They will know that we have a telepath wish magic user, but probably not who the telepath is. Might even think it's Kyouko. Probably won't know how many clairvoyants we have (or that one of them is Elite), or how many stealth. Won't know about the animal communication or translator, but neither of those seem very useful...
 
@Elder Haman : I'd be willing to go for that version.

Might even think it's Kyouko.
Ah, right, that was the rumor in that omake. That would be another reason to use a sniper; stay far enough away that the telepath can't read your mind. That would also make it less likely that there are more support units in this area, as anyone who gets into melee with Kyouko would be particularly vulnerable.

Edit: Although that probably wouldn't change Kyouko's actions, as she wouldn't be aware of that rumor.
 
An observation: the attacks on us so far have been fairly low risk. Dropping full grief cubes and sniping from a distance. It appears that our enemy is trying to hurt us as much as possible while avoiding direct confrontation. Of course, it is a pretty small sample size, but both of these attacks are less direct (but also potentially more harmful) than any of our past confrontations have been.
 
They're not aware of Kyouko's powers (stealth/illusion). Which makes sense, since Kyouko almost never uses them. She usually works as a pure melee fighter.
This is actually something that interests me to play with a bit in this story. Kyouko here has kind of developed past her original rejection of her Enchantment magic. But she still went through her phase of doing everything without it and it still kind of lingers. She went back to it because she realized that rejecting her powers entirely was dangerously handicapping her.

I'm kind of inclined to think that if you took canon Kyouko and gave her more time to develop, like she had before you contacted her again in this story, she'd probably have come to a similar sort of realization about her magic. I mean she seems the type to be able to cope with just about anything given enough time and reason to.

So she developed her enchantment magic a bit further, but for the most part she usually doesn't need it so she doesn't use it. Kyoclone was useful and something she spent a lot of time on because it lets her harvest more cubes and defend a larger territory against people that might want it. However her melee skills are still what she goes to on instinct from spending so long on them, and her primary illusion of duplicates of herself is designed to support her melee ability which kind of indicates that even before her family trauma that was what she focused on. And while she's used her illusionary magic somewhat it's still not quite a clean feeling for her.


Anyways there's lots of interesting discussion but not sure if there's consensus to move forward.
 
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[x] Use Rosa Phantasma to create multiple phantasms in order to confuse the sniper.
-[x] Create phantasms only when behind cover and try to to alternate movement so that your actions could be mistaken for short-range teleportation.
[x] Continue evasive maneuvers: low to the ground, erratic bursts of speed, randomly changing directions every few seconds, keeping to cover.
[x] Once you shake the sniper (ie: they're tracking one of the phantasms), use illusion magic for camouflage.
[x] Loop back around to the starting position and pick up the cellphone (staying hidden as much as possible).
-[x] Ask what Ayako can see about the sniper or any accomplices.
-[x] Tell Ayako, Mariko, and Sora to stick together and to come join us, but to be on guard along the way.

[x] Try to locate the position of the sniper. She will probably be located on high ground between here and the demon spawn point. Also be alert for any other accomplices in the area.
-[] If the sniper is alone, use phantasm clones, while we stay hidden with illusion, charging the sniper's position.
-[] Force her to break and run, but attack her if you can catch up before she gets too far.
-[] Incapacitate, retrieve any enemy comm devices, and take the soul gem.


Edit: We can wait until after we gather some more information, until we decide how to attack/retreat
 
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