Because it is the Odyssey, and was hinged on creating an unlikable world so no one would feel particularly hung up on the idea they just ruined the day of a man-eating Cyclops or a sorceress who enjoys turning men into pigs. Just by the standards of the time, the ST was also given the meta-role of being Poseidon's Judgement, and insuring the journey wasn't as easy as finding a new boat and heading home.
General Exalted Thread
- Thread starter Aleph
- Start date
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
Most modern people have Compassion 2, going by 2e's scale of Virtue.
I'd sooner give modern people an unusually high Temperance rating than Compassion, and a strong Conviction also works.
The Virtues aren't about 'this is what you believe in,' they're about 'this is what you feel strongly about,' and there's more than one path to a modern moral system.
The Virtues aren't about 'this is what you believe in,' they're about 'this is what you feel strongly about,' and there's more than one path to a modern moral system.
vicky_molokh
Posthuman spidery thingy.
- Location
- Kyïv, Ukraine
Hmm. Somehow I thought that Compassion 2 is what most people have in a more brutal and merciless time, such as Second-Age Creation.
Just to clarify with an example of displaying Compassion:
We had one circlemate who was strictly opposed to slavery, doing anything in his power to free slaves whereever he went. That's a tremendously enlightened attiude for this sort of civilisation, probably explained either by enlightened mores of his homeland, or by the ethical/moral superiority of him as an individual. But if five random heroes come from five different cultures of Exalted, and all have the same attitude, the attitude becomes cheapened, and the campaign becomes a theme park version of itself of sorts.
- Location
- Spain
Bah, why follow modern morals when you can build your own.
Make a Twilight philosopher, develop a new ethical code and preach it to the masses.
You can have compassion 5 and support slavery, you know. Is only tangentianlly related.
And yes, if a whole circle, comming from different cultures all oppose slavery, is a bit of a joke. But you can properly roleplay it. For example, if the philosopher preacher of the group convinces all the others through enlightened debate.
Make a Twilight philosopher, develop a new ethical code and preach it to the masses.
You can have compassion 5 and support slavery, you know. Is only tangentianlly related.
And yes, if a whole circle, comming from different cultures all oppose slavery, is a bit of a joke. But you can properly roleplay it. For example, if the philosopher preacher of the group convinces all the others through enlightened debate.
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vicky_molokh
Posthuman spidery thingy.
- Location
- Kyïv, Ukraine
An interesting and admirable goal, worthy of Exalted-level civilisation-building. Alas, it will still be pigeonholed into a combination/proportion of the four Virtues by the game system.
That's a nuanced interpretation I do in fact support, but I was not ready to start defending it if somebody challenged me regarding it, so I went for a somewhat more simplistic explanation regarding what would be linked in Exalted to an abolitionist agenda.
Edit: arg, moar stealth-edits . . .
If this happens after convincing, sure. It's much more absurd if it happens on the day they meet on the road and immediately decide to raid the caravan of slavers that happens to be passing by in the first scene of the prelude.
(Yes, that is a fictional, absurd example, but it's only to make a point about the reasons - or lack therof - behind pulling personal sensibilities into Exalted, as opposed to roleplaying the sensibilities of local heroes.)
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- Location
- Spain
Yes. That's why in Ex3 they removed the virtues system; A good decision IMO.
The Principles/relationships system is much better than the Motivations/Intimacies/virtues one.
vicky_molokh
Posthuman spidery thingy.
- Location
- Kyïv, Ukraine
Well, gotta see how that ends up. Personally, I'm in favour of having some sort of mechanics behind personalities, but I was always mildly worried about the Virtue system commonly conflating different scales (e.g. bravery and tauntability beint intertwined). OTOH, I wonder if a Principles system would be so abstract as to be meaningless, encouraging streamlined sets of principles that rarely shape a character's behaviour, but rather are vaguely shaped by concept and then left to idle on the charsheet. Note that these are just guesses of possible ways things can be, with no data to base concrete conclusions on.
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
I know of once that it has, and once that it hasn't. (I can't seem to find the second one, however. It was about a girl who went to retrieve her family and succeeded. Water of life might have been involved. I was pretty sure there was a Wikipedia article.)
Oh? I want to hear about this.
Forgiving and proceeding to get along with the humans is rather a lot more extensive than "promise you'll leave the humans and their gods alone, and I'll turn you right-side-out again". Heck, wall Creation off, and let the former-Yozis deal with the Faerie. Everyone wins!
Until the Deathlords invade, but that's another campaign.
Just being canonically possible isn't enough to make it a game ender anytime soon. Another outbreak of Great Contagion would (probably) have similarly catastrophic effects, but some guy working on it in his lab is a plot hook, not an "everyone drop everything".
Corollary: some people have Gunbusters.
vicky_molokh
Posthuman spidery thingy.
- Location
- Kyïv, Ukraine
I'm pretty sure Water of Life shows up more than ones in the tales of our Northeastern neighbour. Probably tied to at least one iteration of Ivan the Fool, more likely several. Unlike Water of Death, nearly always ends up being a good thing for the 'client'.
Lazarus of Bethany and Yeshua of Nazareth, of course. I vaguely heard that it includes a third one, but I have no idea whether that is true nor what the name is.
- Location
- Spain
Jesus resurrects the widow's son at Nain
Luke 7:13-15 (KJV)
13 And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and said unto her, Weep not.
14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.
15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.
13 And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and said unto her, Weep not.
14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.
15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
I feel dumb now.
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The Yozi don't want to deal with the Fair Folk, the Yozi want the cosmic Xbox back. Oh, and to make the gods and Creation suffer for daring to kill their siblings and condemning them to a torturous half existence as cripples.
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
You are being No Fun.
Can't they just make a new Creation from the Wyld?
Also, opinions:
Would swearing to punish the Incarnae adequately for their crimes be enough to convince the Yozis to leave them alone? Is that even necessary, if you give them something much like Creation to flee to?
samdamandias
Apprentice Plane Wizard
I feel that there's a very important distinction between "You cannot achieve any long term victory and are going to die horribly" and "Small scale victories and major changes are possible, but you're going to need to work for them and be a bit lucky." I don't play the first kind of game, but absolutely adore the second kind.
Thank you ES, you have now given me the idea of the comically tsundere GSP, who rants and screams how much they hate their patron but at the same time is highly effective at accomplishing the goals of said patron.
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
The thing is, I think it was Asian.
They don't want a new Creation.
Also, starting that project required the cooperation of Gaia (who'd refuse for the simple reason of not wanting to get dogpiled by the Yozi) and Cytherea (who is diminished and might well no longer be able to perform such a thing). The Yozi are mighty, make no mistake, but they are not quite the Primordials they were.
Adequately? By whose standards? Yours? Theirs? The Incarnae's? And what makes you think you could even pull it off?
The Yozi have many reasons to be skeptical of any such claims, and being able to convince the Incarnae to play along is but the merest hurdle in the way.
They don't want something much like Creation. They want Creation, in all possible ways.
I think you mean 'cosmically tsundere.'
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
Okay, why?
What crimes would the Incarnae/gods be subject to that don't also apply to humanity at large? And how would you manage this?
Partially because Creation is built around the games of divinity. Also, because they don't want to lose.
- Location
- Spain
You can't forge the Silmarils twice.
samdamandias
Apprentice Plane Wizard
S͏TU͢PID ͡PR̀INC͢E͢.͜ ̛ ͢I̷T'̛S͠ ̶NOT ͞LIKÉ I'̴M͜ ͜GI͏V͢I͘NG Y̶O͘U҉ ͘P͢H̷EN͠OMENAL̸ ͞C̕ƠSM͝I̵C̡ PO͜W̛ER͢ ́BE͟CA͠U͟S̵E ͘I̴ L͟I͝KE̷ ͡Y͏OU ͞ƠR ĄǸYTHINǴ.̕
Idiot! I'm going to go and slaughter everything in Greyfalls without your help! That'll show you!
FaeGlade Plural
Semper Legens
- Location
- Land of Bureaucracy
- Pronouns
- Plural/They
If all of the Primordials, the Incarnae, the other gods and the Exalted host worked together on a project to do so, they could have easily sorted things out without violence, and with everyone happy.
They could still do so today, it'd just take a bit longer.
Of course, if all of humanity worked together, we could solve most of our problems too. No war, much less disease, hunger or poverty etc.
It's just not going to happen because we're diverse enough that we can't agree on common goals, don't have the means to fairly administer any such effort and our stupid emotions get in the way.
So yes, you could probably build Creation 2.0 somewhere in the Wyld. Get enough Solars with Wyld-Shaping Technique, get the Maidens and Sidereals for Fate 2.0, have the Lunars and Dragonbloods defend it while you build it, get all humans there via wyld-proof artifact vessels, create beautiful sanctums for the gods, establish a fair system of prayer, use Adamant-circle sorcerous workings to make everyone immortal. There you go, utopian post-scarcity society full of immortals. Leave Creation to the freed Yozi, probably keeping the Underworld in check too.
Yeah, except that'll never happen. The Yozi are too mad and too narrow-minded to agree to that. Nobody could coordinate the Exalted host like that. Eventually, someone with enough power would be unhappy with his lot and upset the whole thing. Or the Yozi have justified paranoia against the Exalted host, or the host against the Yozi. Or the Solars against the Sidereals, or the Dragonbloods against the Solars. Etc. etc.
None of the actors in Exalted are perfect (not even the Unconquered Sun). Any solution that would require perfection will fail.
(Assuming such a thing is even theoretically possible in your version of the game, which might not be the case.)
They could still do so today, it'd just take a bit longer.
Of course, if all of humanity worked together, we could solve most of our problems too. No war, much less disease, hunger or poverty etc.
It's just not going to happen because we're diverse enough that we can't agree on common goals, don't have the means to fairly administer any such effort and our stupid emotions get in the way.
So yes, you could probably build Creation 2.0 somewhere in the Wyld. Get enough Solars with Wyld-Shaping Technique, get the Maidens and Sidereals for Fate 2.0, have the Lunars and Dragonbloods defend it while you build it, get all humans there via wyld-proof artifact vessels, create beautiful sanctums for the gods, establish a fair system of prayer, use Adamant-circle sorcerous workings to make everyone immortal. There you go, utopian post-scarcity society full of immortals. Leave Creation to the freed Yozi, probably keeping the Underworld in check too.
Yeah, except that'll never happen. The Yozi are too mad and too narrow-minded to agree to that. Nobody could coordinate the Exalted host like that. Eventually, someone with enough power would be unhappy with his lot and upset the whole thing. Or the Yozi have justified paranoia against the Exalted host, or the host against the Yozi. Or the Solars against the Sidereals, or the Dragonbloods against the Solars. Etc. etc.
None of the actors in Exalted are perfect (not even the Unconquered Sun). Any solution that would require perfection will fail.
(Assuming such a thing is even theoretically possible in your version of the game, which might not be the case.)
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
Humans didn't, as a whole, participate in the Primordial War.
Unless there was a time when everyone was an Enlightened Martial Artist and/or Warstrider pilot.
For the second, Bluff Check. Or maybe mountain sized doomlaser, that might also work.
Ah, forgot about those. Does no one know how to make more of them? Even Autochthon?
Could they all, possibly, be inclined to share?
Aleph
Princess of Stabbity
- Location
- The sixth circle of Hell (second on weekends)
- Pronouns
- She/Her
No. Not only does that require things they don't have anymore (Gaia's cooperation among them); but the infinite planes of Chaos were forever changed by Creation's birth. There is only one Omphalos, which defined the infinite expanse of the Wyld in relation to it and built a palace of Shape around it. There is only one beat of linear time, drumming the world ever onward and forcing all to follow it. These things cannot be remade without tearing down their present forms and reducing all to inchoate formlessness once more, and they belong to Creation as it is; no other.
Because they're spiteful, cruel and traumatised. Because they're proud, defeated and crippled. Because they were brought low by their toys and servants, using pathetic things that aren't even truly sapient, and since then they've stewed for five thousand years of agony. Would you expect a man unjustly imprisoned and tortured for decades to forgive his accusers? Would you expect a country conquered and ravaged by hostile force for centuries to wipe the slate clean, when their enemy stands smug and fat on the riches and resources they've stolen? The Yozis are not kind. They are not nice. They are terrible in their hatred, and were they loosed, they would enact revenge on first the Incarnae, then the Exalted, and then humanity as a whole for what was done to them.
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
You build a house with your own two hands, and live in it for years with your family. You get a guard dog. Your dog recruits the ants in the yard to make a gun, shoots a bunch of your family, and locks you and the other survivors into a kennel that is several times too small, breaking your arms to fit. Decades later, when the gun is rusted and barely usable and the dog is fat, old and blind, one of the dog's ants lets you out, on condition that you go away and build another house elsewhere instead of beating the dog to death and taking your fucking house back.
Do you? That's how the Yozis see things.
Also it's probably just not possible.
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