I had an interesting idea come to mind after I read someone suggesting that Grave Goods from the death of the First Age Solars could be used as the origin for the Abyssal Exalted. Sharing it here in case anyone is interested.

Grave Goods producing Celestial Exaltations might be too overpowered but I think you could have a lot of fun exploring how they can lead to massive power increases in the Underworld and the regions of Creation within reach of a Shadowland.

Much of the canon coverage of Grave Goods has focused on relatively small-scale productions (individual items and equipment, small groups of cattle and slaves, etc.) or one-off disasters producing replicas of destroyed cities. It would be cool for Exalted to instead include elements of real history where kingdoms and empires have devoted meaningful portions of their budgets over several years or decades to massive funeral projects. I am thinking about the Pyramids and Terracotta Armies as the exemplars but there are many other examples of massive tombs throughout history.

In the paradigm of Exalted, these funeral projects would equate to massive power for the Ghost that wakes up in the Underworld. This should have implications for both funeral practices in the regions outside the Realm's authority (the enforcement of the Immaculate Order would naturally prevent such projects) and the structure of the Underworld. Power would not just come from how willing the Ghosts are to debase themselves to gain supernatural empowerment from the Neverborn but also the practical efforts that they and their descendants put forth to prepare for existence after death. The idea is that the dedication of sufficient wealth (on an individual, community, or national level) can allow a mortal to become a being that can operate on the level of Gods and Exalted after they have died.

One civilization that I imagine existing in this paradigm is an empire built on a series of increasingly powerful undead kings. The idea is that the first undead king would have been a moderately successful leader who was buried with a large amount of grave goods. This king would have arisen as a Ghost in the Underworld and journeyed out of a nearby Shadowland to support his people. The power of his people would have grown and the currently reigning king would eventually have been buried with a somewhat greater amount of Grave Goods than his predecessor. When this king arose as Ghost in the Underworld he would have allied with his predecessor and worked together to provide greater aid to their people. They would have formed a Council of Ghost Kings that aided the expansions of their Empire in Creation and grew with each generation as the Empire. The growing power of the Empire would allow for the production of more expensive funeral processes that would add increasingly powerful Ghost Kings to the Council. As civilization develops increasing knowledge of necromancy and the structure of the Underworld would facilitate the creation of more complex Grave Goods and help Ghosts gain greater access to Creation. This would have created a virtuous cycle of growing power as positive developments in one phase of existence would work to benefit the other.

I am familiar with some similar ideas of Dead-Living partnership in canon and fanon but my understanding is that they are centered on the idea of ancestor worship or are sponsored by a Neverborn empowered Deathlord. This would be a purely secular arrangement that is entirely based on mortals recognizing an exploitable flaw in the structure of Creation / the Underworld.
 
Last edited:
Our ST for a tournament game disconnected partway through due to Discord shenanigans and I had to take over for a while.

Fucking hell I hate GMing so much and yet I have to do it just to play the game.

EDIT: To be clear: not mad at our ST or our players, not on them, I'm frustrated at the wider situation.
 
Last edited:
Chejop will always have experience on your Sidereal PC; he's still not the main character. I think it's fine.
I think most Storytellers would agree that XP isn't particularly relevant for Chejop Kejak, as it's primarily an abstraction for player characters and occasionally* worth tracking for NPCs who are supposed to operate on their general level.

*I would argue comparing xp totals to be a misleading measure of fairness and that ultimately the best reason to treat NPCs like this is because the ST enjoys it, it can relive some of the frustrations of a forever GM and some of us just feel better following the rules even when nobody else gives a shit.
 
Last edited:
I just had to read through like 8 pages of posts because SV didn't have an update notification. I'm sorry for not responding properly or for digging up conversation elements that had passed. These were just thoughts I wrote down as I was reading. I apologize in advance that it is a rambling, incoherent mess:

Spoilered for textwall.

2E v 3E
Context I have read many, but not all, of the 3E books although my memory is not perfect and I sometimes cache to 2E stuff due to more experience. My preferred playstyle leans more toward (attempted) simulationism than narrativism.

I like a lot of 3E. The lore more than the mechanics.
  • Mechanics wise, the charm and dicetrick bloat of Core which left a poor impression is mostly gone though issues with e.g. Craft and Projects still remain. My issues are more fundamental,
  • I don't like Withering/Decisive (but I don't like combat and this just makes it more complicated and take longer)
  • Social System (I can see why people who like Social stuff enjoy it but it tends to eat scenes)
  • MA merit (I have wanted to try some MA since core but never have because there is never room for the buy-in or enough xp to buy in a whole character archetype later).
  • A special callout is evocations which I like in theory but the need to lock basic functionality of some things behind xp and essence annoys me as a person who wants to craft those things for people who then can't use them. There are other nitpicks
  • There are other nitpicks like some of the Hearthstone mechanics which I could learn to live with or ignore
Much of the lore is more fleshed out are simply better. e.g. I had been saying for years that trade between Gem and the Lap was silly because you couldn't possibly carry enough food and water so you need smaller communities along the way. Lo and behold At8D adds exactly that. There are many other instances.

Some of my antipathy is more idiosyncratic and less systemic. For a few years I've been slowly fleshing out the Southeast of Creation, with a lot of integration for 2E mechanics like thaumaturgy or godblooded. Except I cannot use it for 3E due to the vast mechanical changes and the direction being radically changed. So either I tear apart something I've almost started to like (a rarity for anything I produce) or try to find people who prefer 2E where my version slots in with much less issue.

Regarding Exigents: I understand why people like them, I'm glad people do and that they exist for those people. I remain on the camp that they should have been a revised and improved Godblooded. It was already possible to "adopt" normal humans as godblooded if you want to avoid the family politics angle and tweaking the Endowment system to be more costly gets you most of the way there. I think that the fact they were so blah in prior editions led to them being underutilized which led to people not minding/noticing that Exigents were created to fill the role Godblooded should have been filling. More than that, I dislike their homebrew nature because I am very bad at homebrew and adjudicating balance and their existence creates a pressure to include and allow them which introduces a mechanical burden I am not really fit to shoulder.

Which leads what is likely the core incoherence of my views: I like a lot of the bespoke location material in 1E but I dislike it in 3E. In 1E it felt like seeing pieces of a bigger picture. 3E feels like there isn't even the pretense that these are anything but rules made for a game challenge in this area. It feels... atomized? Like someone made a D&D campaign out of encounters written by different people and layered a thin narrative over it to tie them together. (I'm sure some people do/have done that and it worked incredibly!)

DB Medals/Awards: Have you considered things which aren't physical medals but some other kind of panoply accent like a helmet plume or a sash? Those might have some sort of social impact, like creating an intimacy at minor intensity related to the feat it is associated with either the specific event or as a general level of accomplishment. e.g. a scarlet horsehair crest, earned for leading a unit to victory against bad odds, might mimic some of Solar/Abyssal charms that make people think you are a merchant/corrupt/etc. and make people think you are a competent military commander. (most useful for DB without social skills I suppose)

Infernals and Infernal Failure: I like the failure element from the lens of creating sympathy for the Yozi. It was hamhanded at times, but the notion that you could understand what it felt like to be the Yozi one at least a small level made loyal Infernals feel more reasonable. I also liked charmclouds and them learning Yozi charms in that as they grew in power they were growing a new Titan inside them out of the same thing Titans were made of, it fit the transformation and transhuman themes to me at least. I know this particular ship has sailed.

The Fandom: I don't know if I'm just not familiar with, or not good at, online community but it really does feel hostile to me whenever I express a disagreement with consensus or ignorance with the material. Not just here, but other Exalted spaces like the Discord. It mostly means I don't post anywhere about Exalted related things because it always feels like walking on eggshells over forgetting something or stepping on some fandom landmine. It felt worse earlier in 3E when talking about older material for which there was not 3E material yet seemed to get particularly nasty responses.

Ultimately though, I'm not a big figure in the fandom nor do I produce some of the exceptional fan material such as is frequently posted here. So my presence or lack thereof doesn't matter much. I can enjoy lurking just fine (even if I sometimes forget myself and opine when I shouldn't) even if I can't be part of the conversation.
 
Last edited:
Artifact and Evocation initially seems iffy to me as well, but after reading the material... decent amount of them basically have 'prebuilt' effect like in 2E, or unlock first Evocation upon ownership, which grant the effect. So if you (or your player) aren't interested in more, that's usually enough.

I do have complaint about them, and that'll be a lot of them require special, one-off/exclusive (sometimes) spendable resources by tapping on the Evocation mechanic, and that's kind of PITA :V
 
The Fandom: I don't know if I'm just not familiar with, or not good at, online community but it really does feel hostile to me whenever I express a disagreement with consensus or ignorance with the material. Not just here, but other Exalted spaces like the Discord. It mostly means I don't post anywhere about Exalted related things because it always feels like walking on eggshells over forgetting something or stepping on some fandom landmine. It felt worse earlier in 3E when talking about older material for which there was not 3E material yet seemed to get particularly nasty responses.
What usually ends up happening, from what I've seen, is that you come in with like, a take to the effect of "I think the 2e version of this thing is better than the 3e version", then when you get even mild pushback you act really performatively self deprecating and cringe away doing the textual equivalent of acting like someone has hit you. You even went through a phase on the Discord where if people disagreed with you in a discussion, you would go back and either delete every single individual message you made or edit them to say something like "ignore me, I'm sorry for posting".

I am willing to believe that this is born out of genuine social anxiety, but it is also like, pretty evident that some of the hostility you ascribe to the fanbase is like, significantly in your head? And your reaction to it is genuinely more disruptive and upsetting to people than anything you ever actually said. It also creates this pattern of behaviour where you'll like, keep making the same takes over and over, and not actually engage with the discussion past the point of it becoming obvious that you're pushing an unpopular opinion. Like, as an example from this post, I have seen you try to make variants on this "Exigents should be god-blooded" argument two or three times at this point, and like... Maybe if you were more willing to have that discussion instead of tossing a take into a conversation and then immediately dipping, you would realise that people disagree with that take because they think it's wrong, not because they haven't noticed you're correct about it.

It's okay if people disagree with you, and this is not the same as them being hostile. It's not very fair to others to treat them like they're attacking you.
 
I've mulled over Godblooded and Exigent since my previous Exigent post, and while I don't disagree Godblooded could fulfill similar role with Exigent upon new edition... well, my expectation already set, you know? Like to me, Godblooded is more 'attached' to their divine parentage. After all, most common way of getting them is via a god doing things with a human. They might be more or less powerful, they could stay 'mortal' or ascend to Godhood. That sort of thing.

While Exigent, being Exalted, is more independent to me. They got usual deal, got power and the gods can't take them back short of murder. They got selected in some way, that isn't just because of divine inheritance. Basically, more free agent.

Of course if it's 'just' custom Exalted or equivalent is desired there are many ways to do that aside from Exigent - Devil-Tiger is one. But we got Exigent, and they do the job well enough.
 
Mothematics homebrew - PAoC Magical Material Charms
Got bored a while ago, wrote Charms for Prismatic Arrangement of Creation style based around adamant and soulsteel. There's no real reason you can't use these as alternative prerequisites for Four Magical Materials Form, although I guess at that point it's more like Six Magical Materials Form. Anyway:

Enervating Soulsteel Grasp
Cost: 4m, 2i; Mins: Martial Arts 1, Essence 3
Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Decisive-only
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: None
The martial artist's touch imparts the hellish cold of deathless soulsteel, draining vital Essence from her opponent.
The martial artist can use this Charm when rolling for control of a grapple, inflicting a −(Lore or Occult) penalty on his roll. Success drains motes from her enemy equal to her control roll 10s, once per round, which she doesn't gain. He can't lose more than (her Essence x 2, maximum 10) motes this way. If he runs out of motes, he instead loses one point of Willpower for every three motes he would have lost.

Flawless Adamant Defense
Cost: 4m; Mins: Martial Arts 1, Essence 3
Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Uniform
Duration: Until next turn
Prerequisite Charms: None
Glimmering crystalline Essence forms a latticed barrier between the martial artist's limbs and her opponent, protecting her with adamant's perfection.
This Charm enhances a full defense action, waiving its Initiative cost. The stylist ignores surprise attack penalties and onslaught penalties, and reverses all onslaught penalties an attack would inflict back onto her attacker after successfully defending.
 
Regarding Exigents: I understand why people like them, I'm glad people do and that they exist for those people. I remain on the camp that they should have been a revised and improved Godblooded. It was already possible to "adopt" normal humans as godblooded if you want to avoid the family politics angle and tweaking the Endowment system to be more costly gets you most of the way there. I think that the fact they were so blah in prior editions led to them being underutilized which led to people not minding/noticing that Exigents were created to fill the role Godblooded should have been filling. More than that, I dislike their homebrew nature because I am very bad at homebrew and adjudicating balance and their existence creates a pressure to include and allow them which introduces a mechanical burden I am not really fit to shoulder.
Hard disagree on Endowment as a meaningful solution, I think it waters down what God-Blooded are and I think the place it existed in the fandom was largely born of a desire for a custom Exalts but tempered by fear of people in the community who went fucking apeshit over the idea.
 
Hard disagree on Endowment as a meaningful solution, I think it waters down what God-Blooded are and I think the place it existed in the fandom was largely born of a desire for a custom Exalts but tempered by fear of people in the community who went fucking apeshit over the idea.
This is very true. 2e was very afraid of breaking its power tiers (not always successfully, but it tried not to), and keeping Endowment as a "not even an Exalt" meant that... it's not the same as an Exalt, pretty definitionally.

I like Exigents being separate and distinct from them: the Exigency itself (and the need for the Unconquered Sun to be involved) prevents this from spiraling until we have countless new Exalts, but it also opens new doors. A god can bless their god-blooded children. But.. maybe that's not what the god picks. There's new and interesting areas to explore if you're playing out the interactions between a god's children and the god's champion.

Exigents might have a slice of overlap in concept with previous edition stuff, but mostly they're their own thing, and in a very good way. It's also fun that there's not necessarily an overlap between a god's power and their Exigent's: maybe Ahlat's Exigent loses an arm-wrestling match with the Exigent of the God of Formal Greetings in Harborhead. The specific example is silly, but the overall vibe? That's good. It both keeps this feeling somewhat miraculous and means that players will be cautious about interacting with an unknown Exigent. That's something that you can't have at all if the power level is defined to be "lower than yours".
 
I think that god-blooded are more interesting in the setting when they're treated as a like, kind of weird supernatural guy you can run into, focusing on the relationship or lack thereof with their divine ancestor. Trying to shoehorn them into being a pseudo Exalt type isn't really what they're suited for.

This is why they still exist and still very much have their own niche that Exigents aren't meaningfully intruding on.
 
From my understanding of Exigents, the sacrifice on the part of the god in question is of key importance - whatever the purpose the champion has, it has to be worth extinction or such severe weakening as to be next to it... and so it has to be something that the god doesn't believe they'll have the ability and the opportunity to do it themselves (or to accomplish through agents, allies or even paid held). If they can do it through other means, they're probably not even going to petition the Unconquered Sun (and it almost certainly wouldn't be granted).

Whereas to a god progeny are somewhere between an inconvenience and an asset, an embarrassment and a source of pride and influence. They might be immensely cherished, but there's other avenues to address any concerns about their survival, happiness or longevity that don't more or less prevent the god from acting personally upon those protective impulses in the future.
 
Something 3e does that I like (which Exigents are a part of but not the whole of) is make "exalt" a broader and less categorized thing.

In earlier editions, Solars did things like this and Lunars did things like that and Sidereals did things like that and Dragon Blooded did thing like this but worse, etc etc. Everything was distinct and that meant everything was identifiable. 3e feels like it has way more overlap being splats, and while I understand concerns that this muddies the thematic waters to and extent (and it can) I think this is ultimately to the enrichment of the setting as a whole.

If you had a character named Invincible Sword Princess in 1e or 2e you knew immediately that she was a Solar — that was the pigeonhole an "invincible sword princess" fit into. In 3e that's not quite so much the case. True, an invincible sword princess would make an exemplary Solar, but she could just as easily be a more martially minded member of another traditional Exalt (such as a Lunar, which have gotten a big glow up in 3e, imho), one of any number of Exigents, or even one of the more obscure "apocryphal" Exalts that may or may not be a part of the setting. Creation is bigger now, and it's filled with things other than just the four big exalts and their various subtypes and antagonists.

And frankly, I do understand people not liking the change — it's a really big one! I think that fact frequently gets downplayed since so much of the setting otherwise seems the same.
 
Last edited:
I personally think that Exalted, and the distinction between Exalt, Godblooded, and God, would benefit from a redefinition of how limited gods are when they aren't doing their celestially appointed duties. Stuff like a god not being able to materialize unless they're doing something related to their domain or on a holy day or some other occult prerequisite is met. I think gods, unlike Exalts, should actually have a great bit of difficulty affecting the world outside of sacral spaces or their domains.
 
Last edited:
I personally think that Exalted, and the distinction between Exalt, Godblooded, and God, would benefit from a redefinition of how limited gods are when they aren't doing their celestially appointed duties. Stuff like a god not being able to materialize unless they're doing something related to their domain or on a holy day or some other occult prerequisite is met. I think gods, unlike Exalts, should actually have a great bit of difficulty affecting the world outside of sacral spaces or their domains.
Most of what you want Terrestrial gods to do in stories, setting wise and narratively, is pretty firmly outside the bounds of their official duties, though.
 
Last edited:
Most of what you want Terrestrial gods to do, setting wise and narratively, is pretty firmly outside the bounds of their official duties, though.
Well there's where the "occult prerequisites" come in. Stuff like they have a really powerful cult that's letting them manifest more freely, or they found a loophole in the celestial law, or they're god of this region and thus can manifest more freely, or they're putting their immortality at risk by materializing for so long and so often. And I think a dematerialized god should have an experience that's quite a bit different from a materialized god. Less focused, less direct, less powerful, in exchange for being less tangible (and less able to be punched). Thats why they need Exalted.

Essentially I think materialization within Creation should be more of an effort(and often at greater personal risk) for Gods than just spending (since RAW has them spending not comitting) half of their already gigantic mote pools. If a god is causing problems in a region, at full undiluted power, they're materialized and vulnerable, and they shouldn't be able to just casually switch back to immaterial and force your PCs to invest dots in Occult to pick up the immaterial god-punching charms.
 
Last edited:
Well there's where the "occult prerequisites" come in. Stuff like they have a really powerful cult that's letting them manifest more freely, or they found a loophole in the celestial law, or they're god of this region and thus can manifest more freely, or they're putting their immortality at risk by materializing for so long and so often. And I think a dematerialized god should have an experience that's quite a bit different from a materialized god. Less focused, less direct, less powerful, in exchange for being less tangible (and less able to be punched). Thats why they need Exalted.

Essentially I think materialization within Creation should be more of an effort(and often at greater personal risk) for Gods than just spending (since RAW has them spending not comitting) half of their already gigantic mote pools. If a god is causing problems in a region, at full undiluted power, they're materialized and vulnerable, and they shouldn't be able to just casually switch back to immaterial and force your PCs to invest dots in Occult to pick up the immaterial god-punching charms.

One thought is that perhaps materialize is more costly and weaker gods can't pay it at all? Perhaps they have to draw on the resources of Heaven to do so, which is normally only possible via acting in an official capacity. Powerful spirits though could bite the bullet and pay for it from their own reserves.

I don't know if Cult really works as a work around, since it doesn't provide motes. (Not sure quite how it works anymore. Trying to avoid 2Eisms by commenting further)


Spoilered for being off topic

It's quite possible you don't mean any hostility by this post. It's quite possible you are frustrated with my prior behavior which is acceptable. I can only note that publicly airing my bad behavior, that I have been trying hard to avoid, feels like an attack, as though even attempting to do better will not matter because my prior mistakes are going to be trotted out every time I attempt to reengage. I am going to make an effort to assume this was not your goal, not because you don't deserve an assumption of good faith but because it is hard for me to do so given that your post is entirely about my poor behavior rather than the substantive content of anything I tried to say.

As far as the "Exigents should be god-blooded" argument: I'm not trying to convince people. I fully I admit that I am wrong and most people disagree with me and are correct for doing so. It is my flaw and failure to have not been convinced despite reading their arguments and the books, but I have read their arguments and the books so I am wrong from a different place than the ignorance of the material generally assumed.

It is probably better for both writers and players to do it this way. I said why I don't like them, for reasons which include "I'm bad at homebrew and they require a lot of it". I'm glad other people are not so deficient, if they weren't there would be no game at all.
 
Last edited:
Could you create an automatic firearm in Exalted (or an equivalent to that)?

In-setting there is nothing that forbids it though again it depends on what you are trying to do with it. A lot of effects, like an AoE explosion from a crossbow, could be fluffed as instead being spraying an area at full auto. Something like a flurry charm could also be fluffed as using an automatic or semi-automatic weapon.

If you specifically mean guns that fire bullets it gets a little more complicated because gunpowder as such doesn't seem to exist. There are steam canons but they tend to be quite large. Some sort of gatling steam cannon could probably exist as an artifact.
 
Last edited:
Early exalted belt over backwards to make sure that firearms as such didn't and couldn't exist, to an extent that I honestly find a little embarrassing now. I understand not wanting that to be a main feature, but I've watched too many historical wuxia fantasies where someone pulls out a historically-out-of-place gatling gun to think that'd be a problem.
 
I thought it was embarassing until I was on the Into the Badlands subreddit while the show was airing.
Every fucking week, some genius had the idea that a new faction would show up with guns and kick everyone's ass after the fourth time it happened I looked at my partner and was like "I owe Geoffrey C. Grabowski an apology."
 
Really i think stuff like KSBD, Gubat Banwa, and the Project Moon-verse prove that guns don't necessarily ruin the vibes of high octane martial arts stories. But treating guns as some overpowered instant win or using them as an excuse to devolve cinematic combat into modern squad tactics button would.
 
Last edited:
Early exalted belt over backwards to make sure that firearms as such didn't and couldn't exist, to an extent that I honestly find a little embarrassing now. I understand not wanting that to be a main feature, but I've watched too many historical wuxia fantasies where someone pulls out a historically-out-of-place gatling gun to think that'd be a problem.
Guns don't exist in Exalted to help shortcut a common element in people interacting with the setting, which at the time was often 'oh, guns will obviously be better than everything else and push out the magic'. You can even see elements of this in 2nd edition: the conversation that the infamous 'Mortals don't get to win' quote came from was about introducing guns to Exalted, with the specific context of countering the 'Guns would allow mortals to make Exalted irreverent'. So I can certainly see why authors would want to avoid guns as a thing in the base setting.

That said, yeah, you could obviously introduce guns in your game. Shards of Exalted Dream did for some of the alt-worlds. The thing to remember in terms of mechanics is that no weapon should really break the core exalted combat, and that if you are making them fully a new 'type' of weapon then you will need to make charms for them.
 
If you've encountered it, the origin of the "mortals don't get to win" statement was Neph responding to a thread exploring the premise of America ending up in Creation the second of it's kind that I'm aware of and there were some very vocal people insisting that the US army would wipe the floor with the Exalted.

Edit: somewhat ninja'd.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top