General Exalted Thread

[Broken25]

Except, of course, for the Demon Summoning workaround.

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The lag in visitations is much more important than the lag in messages. It means each time you visit Malfeas you need to leave your bussiness in creation unattended for ten days.

Finding a bunch of sorcerers who can summon you up a demon army in one night is a substantially bigger challenge than the things it's a "workaround" for, so that doesn't bother me.

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Actually, you don't need to summon an army for the workaround, that was just me joking. You can just summon a demon and your contact can tell him the message he wants to transfer.

 

[notthepenguins]

I want to free the Yozis, so long as I can convince them to avoid provoking another Primordial War.

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The only way to do this is to acquiesce to humanity being a slave race subject to Primordial torture for their sins for the rest of existence, and bloody vengeance upon the Celestial Bureaucracy and Incarna.

Really? How badly?

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A single unfettered Yozi could very possibly flatten Creation without absolutely favorable circumstances having provided a sufficiently powerful alliance to stop it, and Isidoros is the Yozi who epitomizes unstoppable might.

The base setting assumptions -- that Creation is divided, and caught in internal conflict, that the major powers are bickering and will keep doing so until the sky falls in around their heads -- mean that no such alliance exists. The First Age is gone. The Age of Glory, and the unity of the Exalted Host to oppose the Primordials, is similarly gone. A divided and weakened Creation stands little chance against even a single Primordial, much less all of them.

 

[azoicennead]

Really? How badly?

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About as badly as an unstoppable, boar-shaped black hole that ignores everything else's wishes galloping around will fuck it up.
(i.e. better hope you can gather the Exalted Host, you're gonna fucking need it)

I want to free the Yozis, so long as I can convince them to avoid provoking another Primordial War.

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That is a terrible idea that only sounds good when you don't understand the Yozi.
Like, Adorjan being nice involves flaying away your everything with her winds. Her kindness is tearing away all the things that hold you back from joyful enlightenment - including things like your body and life.

 

[Broken25]

A single unfettered Yozi could very possibly flatten Creation without absolutely favorable circumstances having provided a sufficiently powerful alliance to stop it, and Isidoros is the Yozi weho epitomizes unstoppable might.

The base setting assumptions -- that Creation is divided, and caught in internal conflict, that the major powers are bickering and will keep doing so until the sky falls in around their heads -- mean that no such alliance exists. The First Age is gone. The Age of Glory, and the unity of the Exalted Host to oppose the Primordials, is similarly gone. A divided and weakened Creation stands little chance against even a single Primordial, much less all of them.

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Note that this doesn't mention the gods at all, and there exists whole armies of them, plus the Incarna. And the Primordials considered them a threat big enough to Geass them.

All the Legions of Heaven leaded by Mars can probably deal with a single Yozi without any backup.

 

[notthepenguins]

All the Legions of Heaven leaded by Mars can probably deal with a single Yozi without any backup.

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The Geas isn't gone, man. They can just order them to stand down.

 

[rikalous]

Really? How badly?

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Isidoros's mere presence is destructive enough that mirrors shatter and water boils from the weight of his reflection and he hates being told to do things like "not smash our civilization beneath your vast hooves because you felt like a walk."

 

[Broken25]

The Geas isn't gone, man. They can just order them to stand down.

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Are you sure of this? I would like a citation. Since, you know, removing the Geass seems like an obvious point of the surrender oaths.

Not that it matters, the Yozis are trapped anyway. But still, it seems weird.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

The only way to do this is to acquiesce to humanity being a slave race subject to Primordial torture for their sins for the rest of existence, and bloody vengeance upon the Celestial Bureaucracy and Incarna.

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Hence what I meant by "not provoking another Primordial War". I'd want to stick around and make sure they behaved.
With their Fetich souls at knifepoint, if necessary.
Isn't it spelled Incarnae, by the way?

A single unfettered Yozi could very possibly flatten Creation without absolutely favorable circumstances having provided a sufficiently powerful alliance to stop it, and Isidoros is the Yozi weho epitomizes unstoppable might.

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How did they win in the first place, then?

The lag in visitations is much more important than the lag in messages. It means each time you visit Malfeas you need to leave your business in creation unattended for ten days.

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Okay, sure, but it seems... less of an issue, compared to time travel.

By the way, an idea I'd had?
If Exalted doesn't really have many ways of communicating at range faster than a messenger pigeon (barring extensive use of Demons or custom Artifacts), those First Age developments Vicky mentioned? Those could easily be Magic Radio.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

That is a terrible idea that only sounds good when you don't understand the Yozi.
Like, Adorjan being nice involves flaying away your everything with her winds. Her kindness is tearing away all the things that hold you back from joyful enlightenment - including things like your body and life.

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One of the terms would probably involve giving Adorjan something to do.
Visit the Neverborn, for example.

 

[Broken25]

Okay, sure, but it seems... less of an issue, compared to time travel.

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If time shennanigans annoy you, just remove the bit where demons receive instructions before the summoning. Then they can either be a special exception to Cecelyne travel times, or just arrive 10 days after being summoned.

(I use the later, because Summon demon is too good anyway. It makes it a bit more inconvenient, but is still worth it)

How did they win in the first place, then?

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700 Celestials Exalts working thogether with an army of hundreds of thousands of Terrestrials.

 

[azoicennead]

How did they win in the first place, then?

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With 300 Solars, 300 Lunars, 100 Sidereals, and a fuck-ton of Dragon-Blooded all working in concert, with super-training provided by the Incarnae.
Currently, Creation has:

• 150 Solars
• 100 Abyssals
• 50 Infernals
• 300 Lunars
• A bit less than 100 Sidereals
• Probably more Dragon-Blooded, but they're weaker.

And none of these groups are working together, none of them have equivalent training, etc.

One of the terms would probably involve giving Adorjan something to do.
Visit the Neverborn, for example.

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... Killing Primordials is not a good idea.

 

[notthepenguins]

Hence what I meant by "not provoking another Primordial War". I'd want to stick around and make sure they behaved.
With their Fetich souls at knifepoint, if necessary.

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You cannot.

That is the entire reason they were thrown into Malfeas; because the Exalted were going to kill them all to keep the war from just starting again, and Gaia went "Oh no you can't kill my siblings." And they went "Fine I guess this is enough to keep them from just starting a war again."

They are not going to be any more inclined to reconciliation after millennia of constant torture.

How did they win in the first place, then?

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The Exalted host was united under one purpose, trained especially for that purpose by the Incarnae themselves, armed by Autochthon and the Jadeborn to be prepared for the battle, and the Dragonblooded were mightier than they have ever been since.

None of these things are even close to true now.

 

[Anasurimbor]

If Exalted doesn't really have many ways of communicating at range faster than a messenger pigeon (barring extensive use of Demons or custom Artifacts), those First Age developments Vicky mentioned? Those could easily be Magic Radio.

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Messenger pigeons are actually surprisingly fast, if you stuff them full of essence until they nearly explode. The common terrestrial circle spell Infallible Messenger will get a message across Creation in less than a day.

Many Solars prefer to just shout really loudly.

 

[Broken25]

You cannot.

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Hey, you totally can make the Yozi more reasonable.

You just have to kill/change Unquestionables until the resulting Yozi is something people can live with. It's easy!

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

If time shennanigans annoy you, just remove the bit where demons receive instructions before the summoning. Then they can either be a special exception to Cecelyne travel times, or just arrive 10 days after being summoned.

(I use the later, because Summon demon is too good anyway. It makes it a bit more inconvenient, but not too much)

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They don't, but they seem to annoy @Aleph. And I can see why you wouldn't want to come up with time travel rules for your tabletop game.
(No Takebacks is kind of a dumb base for something like Exalted, considering the number of "rescuing loved ones from the underworld" myths there are, though. Maybe it's just impossible without a 5-Dot Intimacy/if you killed them in the first place?)

 

[Broken25]

They don't, but they seem to annoy @Aleph. And I can see why you wouldn't want to come up with time travel rules for your tabletop game.

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Nah, you can't break causality with the canon demon summoning rules. But the fact the demons receive the order before its given is still a weird exception to Cecelyne rules without any kind of explanation. I just like it more if absolutely nothing can cross the desert in less than 5 days. The fact that it makes demon summoning inconvenient is a bonus.

 

[notthepenguins]

No Takebacks is kind of a dumb base for something like Exalted, considering the number of "rescuing loved ones from the underworld" myths there are, though.

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You, uh.

Remember that that basically always fails, right?

Like, the whole point of those myths is usually that death cannot be defeated, that in the end all things die and you cannot undo it.

 

[Imrix]

Plus, Exalted can totally do those myths.

It's just that what Orpheus brings out of the Underworld is the ghost of his love. This poses... Problems.

 

[Roadie]

You can just summon a demon and your contact can tell him the message he wants to transfer.

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Sure, as long as your contact tells him the message five days ago when he's summoned.

The lag in visitations is much more important than the lag in messages. It means each time you visit Malfeas you need to leave your bussiness in creation unattended for ten days.

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Yeah, this is the actually important part. It's a fairly straightforward thematic way to keep "Malfeas as magic headquarters" from really being practical.

 

[Imrix]

"Ah my love, light of my life, truly my joy hath increased tenfold to see you returned to life!"

"T̡̺ͥ̓h̶̸̢̺͎̭̤̼̺̣̺ͩ̄ͮͣ͛̇e͎̮͕̭̤̫̬͐̊̊ͨ͊͐ͭ ̦͍͇̬̠͓̌͠b̹͕͐ͥ̓ͦ͟ͅl̵̬̻̭͔͍̹͚̥͐ͩ̿͆ͦo̬̬̘̾̾ͯ̄ͩͪ͜͠ͅȯ̶͔̜̟d̺͍̅ͧ́́ͧ̓̎.̨̹̖̮̟ͨ͑̂̽̿͜.̞̯͇̱̺ͭͭ.̗͙͙̭͔̹̖̿ͬ̐͒̇ͦ͘ ̺̤͍̬͍̣̯̠͙̄̎͜͠M̤̼̩ͮ̾̓̽̑́͡a̯͕͖͗̂͘͢k͚̮̰̓͑̉ḙ̣̟̥͖̼̠̳̄͝͞ ̸̶̳̹͎̬̦̘̹̗ͧ̊́͢mͦ̊̅̈̓̾҉̤̗̺̲͓̀e͍̻̣̥̱̼̹͙ͪͩ͘͝ ͍̝̉̾̃w̲̹̻͖̫̎̒͐h̪̖̹͚͍͙̼ͦͨ̂̓̿̌͊̊͜o̘̙̙̯̊͂ͧ̈̍̎ͨ͛͞l͍̼̗̹̉ͩ̓̽ͩ͘͟eͦͭ͒͘҉̙̟͓̤̯̣͚̻,̸̟̘̃ͩ̌̑ͬ͊̃͆ ̠̪̥̻ͣ́d̈́̎ͬ̌ͧ͏̢҉̺̤̰̙a̩̟ͬ̆ͬr̯̞̯̝͌̀ͦͫ̾̽ͣ̈́̃̀͜l̈́̈́̒ͭͯ̃́͏̺̘̯͍̖̳̘i͒ͣ͒̄͌͆ͥ̃҉̧̖͙n̜͑͡g̵͔̺̖͇̣͎͕̼ͣ̅ͨ̾̒ͪ̄ͯ͘ͅ.͍̣̜̓ͤ̓̓̄ͦ̀͘ͅ.̤̜̜̫͎͇̥̓.̤̻̩̭͔̘̥̜͕ͪ͂ͨ"

 

[MJ12 Commando]

(No Takebacks is kind of a dumb base for something like Exalted, considering the number of "rescuing loved ones from the underworld" myths there are, though. Maybe it's just impossible without a 5-Dot Intimacy/if you killed them in the first place?)

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The problem is that Exalted, at least in First Edition, isn't a game about the heroes succeeding at the impossible. The reason the journey of the young Solar circle to recreate the First Age seems so impossible is that because in the original conception, it is. It's about how mythological heroes are awful, and the creatures of legend would be as villains to modern people-and how by trying to win glory and shape the world to their liking, they fuck things up and ruin things for everyone.

Exalted is a game where the heroes are expected to fail. That's the original ending way back when the first edition corebook was released. The heroes fail. The godlike might of the Solars does not fix the world, but only breaks it more, to the point when the old gods use them again as a desperate Hail Mary to keep Creation from permanently ending four ages later, they shackle the Solars to the point where their powers are completely useless against a random thug with a gun. The Lunars spend so much time fucking animals rather than leading that they die out, leaving only races of degenerate rage-filled Wyld-maddened beastmen to burn down the last vestiges of civilization because they're crazy. The Sidereals fuse inexorably with the Loom and multiply their shards a millionfold in a desperate attempt to keep Creation going-and even that fails, creating a world where the mad whims of men lead to even more corruption and taint the best-intentioned workings to save it.

Even if Exalted has officially split from the World of Darkness, this original envisioning of Exalted is actually very important. And that's where "No Takebacks" fits in. No Takebacks- because you're doomed. No Takebacks- because your actions are supposed to damn the world, and by the time you realize that, you can't change a thing about them. No Takebacks- because your characters are supposed to fuck up, and fuck up so badly, that Four Ages later, the gods absolutely refuse to let you have even a fraction of your old might.

Exalted has changed and evolved from a game since then, yes, but the whole idea that if you fuck up, the world is doomed to decay and sorrow is still a core part of its identity.

 

[Peanuckle]

There's occasionally talk about how the Primordials are places, not people, and that if you ever try to talk with one you'll be talking with Ligier instead of Malfeas. That's neat, but I think it robs them of too much agency. The Primordials built Zen-Mu using their incredible might, not hundreds of X-circle devas. Titans build Creation and the gods. Ligier couldn't create Sol, only the Ebon Dragon and Theion could.

Then you've got references where they're clearly acting as individuals, such as the conversations and battles between jouten that are recorded in the Ink Monkey's Collection. And there's more evidence in how Adorjan's humaniform jouten slept with a Solar and bore children, or how the Brass Dancer stomps through the streets.

Saying stuff like "they're too big to ever comprehend" makes them sound cool, but it also makes them empty because they can't interact with anything other than each-other in a meaningful way, which just isn't true based on the information we have. Sure they're huge and multi-faceted yet restricted in bizarre ways, but it's perfectly possible to have a face-to-face with Kimbery without ever speaking with Ululaya. Whether or not it's a good idea is another matter.

 

[MJ12 Commando]

There's occasionally talk about how the Primordials are places, not people, and that if you ever try to talk with one you'll be talking with Ligier instead of Malfeas. That's neat, but I think it robs them of too much agency. The Primordials built Zen-Mu using their incredible might, not hundreds of X-circle devas. Titans build Creation and the gods. Ligier couldn't create Sol, only the Ebon Dragon and Theion could.

Then you've got references where they're clearly acting as individuals, such as the conversations and battles between jouten that are recorded in the Ink Monkey's Collection. And there's more evidence in how Adorjan's humaniform jouten slept with a Solar and bore children, or how the Brass Dancer stomps through the streets.

Saying stuff like "they're too big to ever comprehend" makes them sound cool, but it also makes them empty because they can't interact with anything other than each-other in a meaningful way, which just isn't true based on the information we have. Sure they're huge and multi-faceted yet restricted in bizarre ways, but it's perfectly possible to have a face-to-face with Kimbery without ever speaking with Ululaya. Whether or not it's a good idea is another matter.

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You can't interact with the "United States of America" face-to-face, but you sure can interact with the dozen black-suited men with guns they send to kick down your door and shoot your dog, which also inform you of what the "United States of America" actually wants, as a singular actor. I don't think comprehending the Primordials as basically nation-states unto themselves, in a very literal sense, makes them empty.

To explain further: I suggest that Primordials are better understood as nation-states than as people. It makes it easier to comprehend that their motivations are multifaceted and as driven by internal politics as they are by rational thought, that they can disagree with themselves and be self-contradictory all the time yet have dangerous insight, and most importantly creates a better image of what the Primordial War was.

It wasn't heroes beating up space dragons. It was a war where everyone was throwing around mystical WMDs like candy, but one side had better ones and so won. SWLiHN cracking her spheres and annihilating 90% of all Creation? That's just WW3, seen through a fantastical lens. In a war, even the winner is diminished and reduced to a fraction of what they once were.

 

[TheLastOne]

The problem is that Exalted, at least in First Edition, isn't a game about the heroes succeeding at the impossible. The reason the journey of the young Solar circle to recreate the First Age seems so impossible is that because in the original conception, it is. It's about how mythological heroes are awful, and the creatures of legend would be as villains to modern people-and how by trying to win glory and shape the world to their liking, they fuck things up and ruin things for everyone.

Exalted is a game where the heroes are expected to fail. That's the original ending way back when the first edition corebook was released. The heroes fail. The godlike might of the Solars does not fix the world, but only breaks it more, to the point when the old gods use them again as a desperate Hail Mary to keep Creation from permanently ending four ages later, they shackle the Solars to the point where their powers are completely useless against a random thug with a gun. The Lunars spend so much time fucking animals rather than leading that they die out, leaving only races of degenerate rage-filled Wyld-maddened beastmen to burn down the last vestiges of civilization because they're crazy. The Sidereals fuse inexorably with the Loom and multiply their shards a millionfold in a desperate attempt to keep Creation going-and even that fails, creating a world where the mad whims of men lead to even more corruption and taint the best-intentioned workings to save it.

Even if Exalted has officially split from the World of Darkness, this original envisioning of Exalted is actually very important. And that's where "No Takebacks" fits in. No Takebacks- because you're doomed. No Takebacks- because your actions are supposed to damn the world, and by the time you realize that, you can't change a thing about them. No Takebacks- because your characters are supposed to fuck up, and fuck up so badly, that Four Ages later, the gods absolutely refuse to let you have even a fraction of your old might.

Exalted has changed and evolved from a game since then, yes, but the whole idea that if you fuck up, the world is doomed to decay and sorrow is still a core part of its identity.

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That said, you could have time travel if you really wanted. Like, Creation would be a fine setting to run a Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy VIII or Final Fantasy XIII-2 or Legacy of Kain inspired campaign. You would have to write the rules for it, and time-travel would instantly become the focus of the campaign, and all of those but XIII-2 didn't let you micro-travel because consequence DID still matter, even if you were trying to overturn it, and all of them had a theme of doom going on which you never could completely overturn - doom still came, it just came more lightly.

Except XIII-2, because in XIII-2 the universe hates you and wants to watch you suffer and fall and all your works turn out for naught.

But yes, in any game that doesn't want to be about time travel, time travel has no place. I don't think that's limited to Exalted, really. It's just that sometime games don't realize the can of worms they're opening with time travel.

 

[Peanuckle]

You can't interact with the "United States of America" face-to-face, but you sure can interact with the dozen black-suited men with guns they send to kick down your door and shoot your dog. I don't think comprehending the Primordials as basically nation-states unto themselves, in a very literal sense, makes them empty.

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See, I don't want to speak with a dozen black-suited men, I want to speak with America. Where is America's "Uncle Sam" jouten? I could speak with him and get a more concise picture of America's agenda than I could by speaking with all the branches of the American government individually, since each branch is a hyper-focused aspect of a much greater whole. The Justice Department cannot fill me in on what the Pentagon is doing behind closed doors. "Jouten Uncle Sam " could.

Of course, there is no Uncle Sam jouten. But there is a Brass Dancer whom I could approach in an epic dance-off and attempt to hold a conversation with.

To explain further: I suggest that Primordials are better understood as nation-states than as people. It makes it easier to comprehend that their motivations are multifaceted and as driven by internal politics as they are by rational thought, that they can disagree with themselves and be self-contradictory all the time yet have dangerous insight, and most importantly creates a better image of what the Primordial War was.

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I understand that the actions of the TCDs are what determine how the Yozis operate, but there is still a distinct "Yozi" individual. The constant focus on a Yozi being this unapproachable nation-mind that can't meaningfully interact with you doesn't clarify things for me, it confuses me. If they're so sessile, how do they get anything done? How did the Ebon Dragon chat with the Neverborn to crack the Jade Prison? It wasn't Erembour that spoke with He Who Holds in Thrall.

Personally, I like to think of TCDs as anthropomorphized emotions like in that 'Inside Out' movie. The Yozi is defined by its TCDs, but it is a person as well.