You're the Queen - Now What? [CK2ish Character-Focused Quest]

Reader mode
uri said:
Form my understanding this is the professional army, there was a levy which fought in the rebellion (probably on both sides) but they already demobilized after the rebellion won so while its not inconceivable that they have other trades they could go do their profession is being soldiers.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yes and no. This is a professional army, but many of them become professional army during the war. What was standing when the Quest started were those, for or against the rebellion, that had decided to stay in service after the overthrow of Syrokis, under the banner of the crown. The rest went back to trades, farms, mercenary jobs, (banditry in some cases), being the armsmen for nobles, bodyguarding gigs, etc. Now the Crown is telling a chunk of men 'you're fired, here's your discharge bonus' and Rienne is such an inspiring leader and a pretty good speechgiver, and knew who to demobilize (or rather, knew who to find out who to demobilize), etc, that she was able to get those people she fired to accept a much smaller discharge bonus than is standard - either because they did have jobs to return to, or were convinced by speeches or the economic reality, etc.
 
Kylia Quilor said:
that she was able to get those people she fired to accept a much smaller discharge bonus than is standard - either because they did have jobs to return to, or were convinced by speeches or the economic reality, etc.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


For example 900 Cavalry Men likely were drawn from the second or third sons of noble and merchant families for example. If they came from families who have lost members during the war or the purges before the war, its very likely they are now no longer spares, but are needed back home to make good wartime losses.

The trick was to knowing who they are and tailoring the speech to them.

On the other hand, I suspect more lowerborn soldiers are likely to have no homes or trades to go back to, and these are the ones being sent to fight the Bandits and likely are true career soldiers. For some of them, the full discharge bonus is their pension, though some will accept a farm to retire to.
 
Last edited:
Kylia Quilor said:
Troops to be Demobilized:
238 Heavy Cavalry
694 Light Cavalry
813 Men at Arms
625 Crossbowmen
425 Skirmishers
375 Pikemen
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So final numbers and Dureks savings:

712 Heavy Cavalry: 19 -> ~14.25 Dureks (-5.75 Dureks)
2081 Light Cavalry: 27.75 -> ~20.80 Dureks (-6.95 Dureks)
2437 Men at Arms: 16.25 -> ~12.20 Dureks (-4.05 Dureks)
1875 Crossbowmen: 12.5 -> 9.375 Dureks (-3.125 Dureks)
1275 Skirmishers: 5.75 -> 4.25 Dureks (-1.5 Dureks)
1125 Pikemen: 10 -> 7.5 Dureks (-2.5 Dureks)

That equals 23.875 Dureks in savings, though I imagine our QM will round to the nearest quarters to simplify. Which if so should put us at a straight 24.

Now the standard demobilization bonus would be 1/3 of 24, or 8. But the strong success quartered that, so it'll only cost us 2 Dureks.
 
Last edited:
Okay, so in the process of doing the calculations, I found out that in the 'total' troop count, I said you had 1500 Pikemen, but you actually had 1750 (1000 in the Thornmarch, 750 in the Mobile Reserve), so your cost for the Pikemen was off. That's all been corrected now, but that's why the Pikemen stuff may not look like you thought it would if you did any back of the envelope math.
 
MrRageQuit said:
Now the standard demobilization bonus would be 1/3 of 24, or 8. But the strong success quartered that, so it'll only cost us 2 Dureks.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
In hindsight, that's not actually how I thought the numbers would break down, with the standard demobilization bonus being quite that small. I may have to adjust it for the future. I am not a mathematician, so I don't actually game out the math of things that much here, which means I could be surprised by things.

Obviously, the numbers will stand as set this time, but yeah, that's not quite what I expected.
 
Turn 1 Income, Expenditures & Debt Servicing
  • Threadmarks
    • Those take the whole turn to be resolved, so the Outdated Tax Assessment modifier doesn't get removed in time to change your Income for this turn. The Demobilization does as that's a fairly quick process. There is a method to my madness, though I grant it an be opaque.

    Starting Treasury: 50 Dureks
    Pre-Income Costs: 2 Dureks
    • 2 Dureks Spent on Demobilization of [238 Heavy Cavalry, 694 Light Cavalry, 813 Men at Arms, 625 Crossbowmen, 425 Skirmishers, 438 Pikemen] at 25% of the standard demobilization bonus
    Pre-Income Gains: 70 Dureks
    • 45 Dureks Recovered from Bank Accounts belong to Syrokis and attainted/exiled/dead/etc members of his inner circle in various Selissan banks. Not all the money was recovered, but about 70% of it. (Details of how will be covered in Coming Narrative Post)
    • 25 Dureks Made from the sale of Manors, non-moveable assets, land not attached to noble estates and other confiscated assets from Syrokis's inner circle. 25% Increase from Original Amount thanks to the Queen's Oversight.
    Income: 225 Dureks
    • Crown Holdings: 125 Dureks
    • Free Cities Taxes: 34 Dureks
    • Counties Taxes & Dues: 34 Dureks
    • Lordships & Towns Taxes and Dues: 32 Dureks
    Expenses: 122 Dureks
    • Royal Administration: 42 Dureks
    • Wages & Supply of Royal Army: 70 Dureks
    • Basic Maintinence of the Crown & Palace: 10 Dureks
    FInal Income: 103 Dureks
    Final Treasury: 221 Dureks
    Outstanding Debts:
    Previous Debts Owed By Syrokis: 320 Dureks (12% Monthly Interest) (38.5 Dureks)
    Owed to the Geltric Bank (Selissa): 85 Dureks (15% Interest) (12.75 Dureks)
    Owed to the Axecavern Bank (Lortan Dwarves): 150 Dureks (10% Interest) (15 Dureks)
    Owed to the Redhammer Bank (Lortan Dwarves): 75 Dureks (11% Interest) (8.25 Dureks)
    Owed to the Royal Bank of Zedarsh (Zedarsh): 100 Dureks (12% Interest) (12 Dureks)
    Owed to the Feltrini Bank (Varaday Republic): 100 Dureks (15% Interest) (15 Dureks)
    Owed to Assorted Individual Wealthy Merchants/Etc based in Eaglecrest, Port Lest and Westcrown: 75 Dureks (8% Interest) (6 Dureks)
    Owed to Assorted Individual Weathy Merchants Based in Zedarsh or Selissa: 100 Dureks (11% Interest) (11 Dureks)

    Total Interest To Be Added If No Debts Are Paid Down This Turn: 118.5

    Vote By Plan How You'd Like To Service the Debt:

    Example Plans
    [ ] Plan: Wipeout Geltric & Feltrini (185 Dureks)
    -[ ] Pay 85 Dureks to Geltric Bank
    -[ ] Pay 100 Dureks to Feltrini Bank

    [ ] Plan: Partial Interest Covered (180.75 Dureks)
    -[ ] Pay Interest on All Debts Except Feltrini & Geltric (90.75 Dureks)
    -[ ] Pay 40 Dureks to Geltric Bank
    -[ ] Pay 50 Dureks to Feltrini Bank

    [ ] Plan: Just Above Bare Minimum (132.5 Dureks)
    -[ ] Pay 40 Dureks To Previous Debts Owed by Syrokis
    -[ ] Pay 14 Dureks to the Geltric Bank
    -[ ] Pay 17 Dureks to the Axecavern Bank
    -[ ] Pay 9.5 Dureks to the Redhammer Bank
    -[ ] Pay 14 Dureks to the Royal Bank of Zedarsh
    -[ ] Pay 17 Dureks to the Feltrini Bank
    -[ ] Pay 8 Dureks to Assorted Individual Wealthy Merchants/Etc based in Eaglecrest, Port Lest and Westcrown
    -[ ] Pay 13 Dureks to Assorted Individual Weathy Merchants Based in Zedarsh or Selissa

    QM Note: Don't feel slaved to the example plans, they're just to give you an idea of what we're looking at here. Of course, if you like one of the example plans, go for it.

    Voting will open in 1 Day, and be open for 3 days after that.
     
  • Threadmarks
    • [] Plan: One Obligation Resolved (85 Dureks)
    -[] Pay 85 Dureks to Geltric Bank

    I think this is the simplest, most straightforward option. We could throw in the extra 15 Dureks and pay off the Feltrini Bank instead, but I for one think it's better to keep a bit extra in the bank. Since we're going to have to do stuff like spend money on spy networks, the roads, etc. See my math below.

    After Geltric: 221 - 190.75 (85 + 105.75) = 30.75 Dureks.
    After Feltrini: 221 - 203.5 (100 + 103.5) = 17.5 Dureks.

    Side note, if 45 Dureks represented about 70%, then the Selissan banks had a total of 65 Dureks.
     
    Last edited:
    You might want to put it in the actual threadmarks and not apocrypha, I know it would drive me mad if I was joining this quest in half a year when it picked up a wordcount and couldn't find were the vote for the budget was.

    Would probably find it in time but this is relevant information so just putting it in the main threadmarks shouldn't be a problem.

    As for the actual payment getting rid of the highest interest should be what we do even at the cost of other loans going up as evry durek spent on buying down debt on the 15% loans lowers interest by 0.15 while every durak added to a loan of 12% only increases interest by 0.12 so were still coming up ahead by 0.03 for every durek spent on buying down the debt for the higher interest loans.

    Alternatively, we could just ignore both of the 15% loans (which would save us like 30 durek in interest) pay down the other loans and when we finished all of them just tell both of them were not paying and say come at me.

    The kingdom of seslisa is smaller then us and relatively far away, they also seem busy countering morvak and the king might care more about a relationship to a potential weight against morvak then to the repayment of a loan to one of their banks.

    I could not find the Varaday Republic anywere so im assuming their off map and as such far away.

    Honeslty I've talked myself to this course of action, this way not only do we save about 30 durek interest payment a month but also effectively reduce our debt by 185 duraks (which is almost double our net income this turn).
     
    Last edited:
    uri said:
    I could not find the Varaday Republic anywere so im assuming their off map and as such far away.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    They are are on the far side of the Andelerian Sea, yes.

    And yes, telling a bank to piss off is an option. But that will upset all the banks, so - like how in CK2, if you expel the jews, you can't borrow from the jews again until you bring them back. Not the same thing in the details, but it really would hamper your ability to borrow in a pinch.
     
    This is a hell of a lot of debt. My first thought was that we might consider paying the minimum and investing the rest towards growing our economy, simply absorbing the cost of the interest as an ongoing expense. That doesn't feel viable. With most of the last vote's choices costing 5-15 dureks, I'm not sure we have the administration/manpower to, like, invest 50 dureks in fixing the roads.

    Money sitting around in the vault is useless. We should throw everything we can't productively spend toward these loans. The ~35 remaining after the wipeout plan feels like enough of a cushion.

    The interest alone is almost the size of our other expenses. How are we not bankrupt?
     
    Embler said:
    The interest alone is almost the size of our other expenses. How are we not bankrupt?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    The sheer size of Halrun, the fact that most of the debts were assumed from the rebels after the war was over, so you weren't borrowing it at all at once, and you guys definitely lucked out with Vallefor clawing back so much money - 45 dureks is a very large (or even obscene) sum of money by any standard but the level of Kings, and even for Kings it's still a pretty damn good amount.

    But you also are mostly in a position where you can only go up from here. Obviously, sometimes random events may happen that fuck things up, and things can go wrong at times, but economically your prospects are positive if you can get over the hump of the first year and the debts you're carrying.
     
    Pay down the highest interest loans first. We don't even have to wipe them all out at once, do we?

    Unless there's political concerns for certain banks over others?
     
    Last edited:
    So which is best?

    Chipping down the big fish

    Or fulfilling the small fish?
     
    Kylia Quilor said:
    And yes, telling a bank to piss off is an option. But that will upset all the banks
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Ehh.. I figured we'll not quite tell them to fuck off but find (or manufacture) some excuse and then tell them to fuck off.

    Also would paying the rest of the banks first (like I proposed) be in anyway helpful for that? Because it feels like it should, like if we paid all the dwarven banks back they might be a little worried that we didn't pay back a loan but we did pay back theirs so I'm not sure the effect would be a blanket ban on giving us loans.
     
    Rockeye said:
    We don't even have to wipe them all out at once, do we?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    No need to try and wipe everything out. From the standpoint of your creditors being happy with you, and keeping the bankers happy in general, just making clear moves to pay down the total is a good sign, so it's not as if you have to make a minimum payment on every debt every month, like with IRL debts 😂

    Rockeye said:
    Unless there's political concerns for certain banks over others?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    *equivocating Hand Gestures* If you consistently annoyed the bankers in Selissa or the Lortan Mountains or Zedarsh or the Varaday Republic, that could turn those governments more against you, to varrying extents, but it depends on the country. In the Lortan Mountains, the bankers are very closely tied into the government and Bankers have the ear of the various dwarven Kings there. In Selissa, the Kingdom isn't often in need of loans (we're not to the point of development where something like a permenant national debt is possible, economically), so the King has more power than the bankers there - so theoretically the Selissan Monarchy could force their banks to kowtow to Selissan foreign policy (i.e. spite Morvak, which is basically 75% of Selissa's Foreign Policy), though they are aware that could create problems and risk destabilizing the entire economy and kill the goose that laid the golden eggs, etc.

    In Zedarsh it's somewhere in between, and while the Varaday Republic is influential in the banking community in general, there's not much the Republic could do one way or the other. But Varaday bankers are well connected to merchant concerns all over.

    So the answer is a big 'it's complicated' 😅
     
    uri said:
    Also would paying the rest of the banks first (like I proposed) be in anyway helpful for that? Because it feels like it should, like if we paid all the dwarven banks back they might be a little worried that we didn't pay back a loan but we did pay back theirs so I'm not sure the effect would be a blanket ban on giving us loans.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    It would definitely stop the dwarven banks from giving you a blanket ban on loans, yes, but it's still the sort of thing that, for lack of a better way of putting it, reduces your credit score and probably raises interest rates and lowers the base chance of any given future loans. It would also make it look like you're playing favorites with dwarves over humans, which has some optics issues.

    Definitely doable, but there are consequences.

    I don't want you to think I'm saying 'DON'T DO THIS EVER' because you're right it's not suicide. I would personally file it under 'INADVISEABLE PLANS' but inadvisable doesn't mean 'categorically bad' and there are ways I could conceive of you all making it work overall.
     
    I think there's two different questions here.

    How much are we willing to pay down the debt? We don't have any minimum payments but ignoring them and letting the interest stack up isn't great.

    And where should that paying-down go? Straight to the highest interest lenders (as in [ ] Plan: Wipeout Geltric & Feltrini (185 Dureks))? Distributed across a wide variety of creditors to display good monetary faith to all lenders? Pay back the wealthy merchants first and try to signal openness to trade?

    Too bad we can't reasonably nullify previous debts owed by Syrokis. He was a tyrant and we overthrew him; It might even be reasonable by some standards. However it would also be a dangerous proposition. Even if there's justification, telling lenders to F off is poison in the well forever, particularly as regards our reliability-in-future signal for what happens if the new Queen dies without an heir. Would the new Queen declare the old Queen's debts null? Maybe! Who knows! Don't owe anything to the old queen, then!

    In my opinion: We currently owe just a hair over 1000 Dureks in total. Paying that all off quickly is not going to happen, and trying to do so without leaving any room to spend on making the country functional is a Bad Plan.

    Can we get more detail on the previous debts owed by Syrokis? Who are they to and can we argue our way out of any of them without pissing people off, or would it be better not to try?
     
    I have to assume we'd be told if there were any political concerns, deadlines, or administrative/servicing costs. I'm not great at math or anything, but I don't think there's any numbers reason not to go from highest -> lowest interest. Paying off the interest each turn should not matter.

    As far as manufacturing reasons to default, I don't suppose any of these banks are in unstable, war-torn countries that might collapse soon? If we're so lucky, we might pay those later. The assorted wealthy domestic merchants, though... I suppose we could find reasons to arrest them and seize their estates? Doesn't seem like it'd be a popular move.
     
    *attempts to put on my math hat for the first time*

    As my previous post might get a responce, I decided to take all my math to this one. Lets see how I do..

    [ 50-2 = 48

    + 70 for our cash grab

    48 + 70 = 118

    +225 for income (yay taxes!)

    118 + 225 = 343

    - 122 for expenses (booooo!)

    343 -122 = 221 ]

    I got the same thing as the main post, thats a good start!

    So, we'll be getting more money from tax assessments probably, but we wont be counbting that.

    before any extra spending we starts with income, and general expenses.

    +225
    - 122

    which gets us a profit of 103, ah, i see where you got that number from now. cool. yet more proof im on the right path!

    so next turn we should be able to look forward to this: 221 + 103 = 324

    if we say...chip down our biggest debt, which is contributing the most to our interest, despite not being the highest percentage, we could say... throw 120 at it, bringing us down to a flat 200 @ 12% = 24; bringing us down to... +94.5

    wiping out our two 15% will of course cost 185, bringing us down to... +90.75

    OR

    if we pay that exact same 185 to our biggest debt, we bring that down to 135, giving us an added interest of 16.2, bring total added interest to ... +96.2?

    wait...I did something wrong here...damn it..

    edit: well, i may have stumbled over my math, but at least my theory is there
     
    Last edited:
    Rockeye said:
    And where should that paying-down go? Straight to the highest interest lenders (as in [ ] Plan: Wipeout Geltric & Feltrini (185 Dureks))? Distributed across a wide variety of creditors to display good monetary faith to all lenders? Pay back the wealthy merchants first and try to signal openness to trade?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    I doubt the other creditors will mind so much as long as we're still paying the interest. If we wipe out the Geltric Bank this turn, and then the Feltrini Bank next turn, we're pretty much in the black at that point, so we don't have to make big payments on the principals after that. Now, continuing to make payments would be good and all, but we can keep them smaller.

    Embler said:
    As far as manufacturing reasons to default, I don't suppose any of these banks are in unstable, war-torn countries that might collapse soon? If we're so lucky, we might pay those later. The assorted wealthy domestic merchants, though... I suppose we could find reasons to arrest them and seize their estates? Doesn't seem like it'd be a popular move.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    1. Nope.
    2. That would be stupid, and these are relatively small portions of our interest debt to begin with. Really, defaulting is bad in general and I don't think we have any good reason to do so right now.

    Edit: Well, if we repudiated Syrokis' debt but paid off Geltric or Feltrini this turn, we might be able to salvage things - that we are going to pay off our debts, it's just that the new, lawfully appointed sovereign shouldn't be bound by the ousted, criminal predecessor's debts.

    Crawkid said:
    wait...I did something wrong here...damn it..
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Because we still have to pay the leftover interest for the turn with what remains in our treasury. That's why we can't actually do Wipeout Geltric & Feltrini.
     
    Last edited:
    [] Token Interest, Pay Down High Rates
    -[ ] Pay 25 Dureks To Previous Debts Owed by Syrokis
    -[ ] Pay 60 Dureks to the Geltric Bank
    -[ ] Pay 8 Dureks to the Axecavern Bank
    -[ ] Pay 5 Dureks to the Redhammer Bank
    -[ ] Pay 6 Dureks to the Royal Bank of Zedarsh
    -[ ] Pay 60 Dureks to the Feltrini Bank
    -[ ] Pay 6 Dureks to Assorted Individual Wealthy Merchants/Etc based in Eaglecrest, Port Lest and Westcrown
    -[ ] Pay 6 Dureks to Assorted Individual Weathy Merchants Based in Zedarsh or Selissa
    -[ ] Total payments are 176 Dureks
    -[ ] Leaving 35 in the treasury

    Intended as a compromise to signal to all creditors that, yes, we are going to pay. Eventually. With some token payments less than the interest on most of our debts, but not zero. While also paying down the higher interest ones much more aggressively. It's kind of ugly, but I think it sends a better signal than paying nothing to some creditors in favor of wiping out only the highest interest loans.

    We had 221 Dureks in the treasury this turn, and I feel like we're going to get spendy. Just ordinary government operation is already 100+ Dureks, and road repair, dealing with bandits, etc, will all be expensive. I wanted to reserve 50 Dureks for government projects in the next turn, but 38 is (even if not a nice round number) still a solid chunk'a'change. I don't know how expensive stuff is likely to be, but neither would our queen. And our easy and effective money-getting actions will not last very long, either...

    Paying down the highest interest rates as opposed to all equally saves us ~3% on the re-routed money, which for 170 dureks spent on debt means we save about ~5 dureks/turn on interest going forward. Exact numbers too mathy.

    Pissing off so many banks for 5 dureks/turn does not seem worth it to me. But making them mildly grumbly for 2.5 dureks/turn might be worth it. Also, paying all the interest for our actual domestic debt. Can't piss off the local merchants.

    Then again, it could just be the worst of both worlds.

    Update textAmount OwedInterest RateInterest This TurnNotes
    Previous Debts Owed By Syrokis: 320 Dureks (12% Monthly Interest) (38.5 Dureks)
    320​
    12.50%​
    38.5​
    		12% compounded monthly is effectively ~12.5%
    Owed to the Geltric Bank (Selissa): 85 Dureks (15% Interest) (12.75 Dureks)
    85​
    15.00%​
    12.75​
    Owed to the Axecavern Bank (Lortan Dwarves): 150 Dureks (10% Interest) (15 Dureks)
    150​
    10.00%​
    15​
    Owed to the Redhammer Bank (Lortan Dwarves): 75 Dureks (11% Interest) (8.25 Dureks)
    75​
    11.00%​
    8.25​
    Owed to the Royal Bank of Zedarsh (Zedarsh): 100 Dureks (12% Interest) (12 Dureks)
    100​
    12.00%​
    12​
    Owed to the Feltrini Bank (Varaday Republic): 100 Dureks (15% Interest) (15 Dureks)
    100​
    15.00%​
    15​
    Owed to Assorted Individual Wealthy Merchants/Etc based in Eaglecrest, Port Lest and Westcrown: 75 Dureks (8% Interest) (6 Dureks)
    75​
    8.00%​
    6​
    Owed to Assorted Individual Weathy Merchants Based in Zedarsh or Selissa: 100 Dureks (11% Interest) (11 Dureks)
    100​
    11.00%​
    11​
    Total
    1005​
    118.5​
    		Using update numbers, not my numbers
     
    Last edited:
    MrRageQuit said:
    Because we still have to pay the leftover interest for the turn with what remains in our treasury. That's why we can't actually do Wipeout Geltric & Feltrini
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    ah, right, right...so above minimum addresses all that, keeps the price low, and still lessens what we owe next time
     
    Reader mode
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Back
    Top