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Worm Morality Debate Thread

The Laurent said:
Though the phrase 'rot in prison' actually brings up real concerns. Because of cut funding and a lack of resources, prisons are becoming the dumping grounds for people with serious mental illness.

But all of this depends on the scenario. Like, let's just take Panacea. She has to sleep, she has to eat. She has needs to be met, and so her time is limited.

So the question is, is her time better spent curing inoperable diseases and healing Heroes who got hurt battling giant Kaijuu, or is it better spent going around and fixing people with mental illnesses, or what combination of those two works best?

Because every minute she spends eating dinner, or breathing, or curing Regent's sociopathy (assuming this is a 'good' action for the sake of argument) is a moment not spent helping someone else in another way.
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Her time is "better spent" doing whatever the hell she likes in whatever combination she likes along with letting Dragon, Armsmaster and Masamune study her power so they can replicate and mass produce it.
 
Cunuroi said:
This is literally all morality is. It's problematic to get right in practice but if we couldn't do it morality would just be nonsense.

Or do you feel that you can't say I'm wrong if I dump a million people across the world into depressive fugues? Or do you complain when we force someone to see a psychiatrist if they try to commit suicide? After all, why should I tell them that their state is not inherently equal to mine? After all, we are clearly not trusting them to self-determine.
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You're totally right, but I stand by the point that it is problematic to make a moral or qualitative evaluation about what is the optimal physical/psychological/neurological state and then force other people to conform to it.

all the things you describe are definitely tricky, morally speaking, but many of them are external forces (simurgh, heartbreaker, dumping millions of people into depressive fugues) that we can point to as unnatural influence We can point to their behavior prior to the mental whammy and say that their personality has been forced to change and the fix the damage. Did not remember that Regent was mindfucked to be that way, so that kind of ruins my point a bit, but how long ago did that happen? Would we want to say that Regent's personality as a 5 year old (or whatever) should determine his state as a seventeen year old?
 
1986ctcel said:
Her time is "better spent" doing whatever the hell she likes in whatever combination she likes along with letting Dragon, Armsmaster and Masamune study her power so they can replicate and mass produce it.
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Well, yeah. I was trying to actually define the problem and talk about the 'fix people's minds' issue. You could make the exact same question more clear by removing it one step from Worm. Instead of Panacea, it's a machine that does what Panacea does but needs time to recharge, refill its batteries, get repairs, and can't/hasn't-yet been replicated.

I would argue that in that case "fixing criminals" would be a low-value use of time and energy compared to healing people, and thus not worth it.

But yes, looking at Panacea as a person, she should do whatever she wants.
 
In the real world most criminal rehabilitation is a matter of voluntary work programs, education, drug rehab, and mundane therapy all in a non-fucked environment. The question is what can mind-rape do that these can't? Why should we violate Regent's rights if we can guide him in a direction that has the same result? It's not like Regent is an outright psychopath. It's not like he can't be taught a profitable skill set or coping techniques for his issues. I don't see how the mind alteration would be the only option that can get Regent functioning in society.

The question I'm asking is, why should we force people to conform to moral standards if when we can either incentivize it, or make conforming to those standards easier? We (as in smart people) don't train dogs by beating them for this exact reason.
 
Thrice.Great said:
You're totally right, but I stand by the point that it is problematic to make a moral or qualitative evaluation about what is the optimal physical/psychological/neurological state and then force other people to conform to it.
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We already try to force people to conform, as I said. It's just that our tools are very primitive compared to crystal aliens or transhumanist-wet-dream-machines.

Should we stop?

all the things you describe are definitely tricky, morally speaking, but many of them are external forces (simurgh, heartbreaker, dumping millions of people into depressive fugues) that we can point to as unnatural influence.
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The point is that "external influence" is a heuristic. You and I both know that there is no bright line so you just go "weeell, if it was external or unnatural it's bad". It's all unnatural, it's all external, ultimately.

Take the Simurgh, she basically works through deterministic magic. She can fuck you because she knows the future. What she does to you doesn't have to be more amazingly invasive than things others can or would do, it's just that she can time it so it works perfectly.

If I had foreknowledge and I walked up to you and told you something that guaranteed that you flipped out or became the next Einstein did I take away your free will?
We can point to their behavior prior to the mental whammy and say that their personality has been forced to change and the fix the damage.
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And this is exactly what I mean. It makes everything far easier.

What if Heartbreaker decides to use a low-level conditioning on Regent? Say...the way you're conditioned when you smell the perfume or continually interact intimately with someone you're attracted to or someone you're afraid of? So, every time Regent fucked up he was made to feel like he was in front of a scary drill sergeant until he stopped fucking up. Does the fact that this is "unnatural" change the fact that it is basically normal conditioning being done more efficiently?

Reveen said:
In the real world most criminal rehabilitation is a matter of voluntary work programs, education, drug rehab, and mundane therapy all in a non-fucked environment. The question is what can mind-rape do that these can't? Why should we violate Regent's rights if we can guide him in a direction that has the same result?
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What can Contessa do to convince you that a meeting with a philosopher couldn't do? What can a neuroscientist do to induce the illusion that you have no self that a shaman can't do? What can surgery do to help you that herbal medicine can't?

Everything is degrees. Some things are more direct, reliable and successful than others.
 
Cunuroi said:
We already try to force people to conform, as I said. It's just that our tools are very primitive compared to crystal aliens or transhumanist-wet-dream-machines.

Should we stop?


The point is that "external influence" is a heuristic. You and I both know that there is no bright line so you just go "weeell, if it was external or unnatural it's bad". It's all unnatural, it's all external, ultimately.

Take the Simurgh, she basically works through deterministic magic. She can fuck you because she knows the future. What she does to you doesn't have to be more amazingly invasive than things others can or would do, it's just that she can time it so it works perfectly.

If I had foreknowledge and I walked up to you and told you something that guaranteed that you flipped out or became the next Einstein did I take away your free will?

And this is exactly what I mean. It makes everything far easier.

What if Heartbreaker decides to use a low-level conditioning on Regent? Say...the way you're conditioned when you smell the perfume or continually interact intimately with someone you're attracted to or someone you're afraid of? So, every time Regent fucked up he was made to feel like he was in front of a scary drill sergeant until he stopped fucking up. Does the fact that this is "unnatural" change the fact that it is basically normal conditioning being done more efficiently?


What can Contessa do to convince you that a meeting with a philosopher couldn't do? What can a neuroscientist do to induce the illusion that you have no self that a shaman can't do? What can surgery do to help you that herbal medicine can't?

Everything is degrees. Some things are more direct, reliable and successful than others.
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Yeah, I think you're right, there is little in the way of mindfuckery that can be done with space magic that can't be done with normal conditioning etc. but it gets done with absolute efficacy.

So I guess it comes down (for me) to intent and consent. If my intent is to help you be a happier, better version of yourself, and I have your permission to do so, then we're (morally) okay? Better in this case means more able to do and be the things you want for yourself.

For Regent, if he has no desire to change, and him remaining that way has no proven direct negative influence on other people, he should be allowed to stay as he is. If changing has an incentive attached (like no prison time) and he changes his mind, then great go ahead. But holding him down applying Amy to his brain is unacceptable, except in cases where him remaining that way is a 100% clear and present danger to other people (like if his power was on all the time a la Cherish post S9). Just in the same way that you tying me to a chair and forcing me to go through various kinds of operant conditioning is unacceptable to me, unless I am dangerously psychotic and am a threat to myself and others. There are of course extenuating circumstances and exceptions, but I think I can state this confidently.

I'm comfortable stopping here and moving on.
 
Yeah, makes sense. Another thing I'd add is that while his sociopathy surely influenced a lot of things in his life, there are people who would and have committed the same sorts of acts as Regent in-real-life, and have also done so in Worm, without being a sociopath. So I don't think removing his sociopathy would really 'solve' all the problems nice and neat. But anyways, yeah, we've probably reached the point where we've all defined where we stood on this.

Edit: Has anyone had the 'Are robots going to enslave the world?' debate yet?
 
Here's a question.

What if, in the process of fixing Regent like this, the guilt he feels gets so bad he commits suicide?
 
Don't know if other people have seen this, but it's a superhero webcomic which deals mostly with moral and social justice issues. Thought I would throw it out there.

Actually addresses a similar situation to the "Should Panacea ever take a break from healing" issue.

For those who don't want to follow the link, a hero with Wolverine style regeneration decides that the best use of her power
is to be in constant surgery for the rest of her life, with no anesthetic (they don't work on her) or breaks, so that the maximum number of organs can be harvested as they constantly regrow inside of her. One aspect of her power makes every transplant have a 100% acceptance rate, meaning every transplant is a success.

Just thought that would be fun. It brings up superheroes as the ubermensche, as assholes, as victims, as people. I like it a bunch.
 
landcollector said:
Eh, seems rather de-humanizing to me (re: the Wolverine hero).
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Well...yeah. People have sacrificed themselves for all sorts of dumb causes before. This...isn't dumb.

My problem is that, the more successful this sort of thing is, the more it might discourage alternate methods or cause a problem when the person finally cracks. Of course, I doubt it's a problem in this case. I mean more like Superman creating a network of super-generators and running it with heat vision forever.
 
Cunuroi said:
Well...yeah. People have sacrificed themselves for all sorts of dumb causes before. This...isn't dumb.

My problem is that, the more successful this sort of thing is, the more it might discourage alternate methods or cause a problem when the person finally cracks. Of course, I doubt it's a problem in this case. I mean more like Superman creating a network of super-generators and running it with heat vision forever.
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Yes, and that gets addressed. It's also discussed that it's a stop gap measure and actions that fundamentally change a broken system are preferable. The wolverine expy argues that that's a perfect solution fallacy and then many sad feels because the two debaters are friends.
 
The comic doesn't even begin to address why these... um... doctors(?) aren't being strung up on lampposts by WHO and the AMA. Because it's shady as fuck top secret? I don't remember.

As the attractive as the idea of a martyr being put up on the cross for the greater good is to our bronze age sensibilities. Remember that there's already shady government shit going on in the background in the story, and it's not unlikely that this is just the start of trying to make biodynamics :turian:useful.:turian:
 
Aren't they required to ask Feral for consent for each operation? So it's not permanent constant surgery with no anesthetics, it's a mix of nothing but surgery with no anesthetics and filling out consent forms for permanent constant surgery with no anesthetics.
 
SeptimusMagisto said:
I haven't even read the comic yet, but it already sounds like she could save way more lives if she just did what Wolverine does.
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Assuming that there are bad guys that only she can fight. Also assuming that the steady influx of organs can't be used for research in a way that will save more lives in the future.

But really, we need to graph this shit. Surely there's some optimal point between "only kicking evil ass" and "only getting cut up day-in,day-out".
 
Axiomatic said:
Aren't they required to ask Feral for consent for each operation? So it's not permanent constant surgery with no anesthetics, it's a mix of nothing but surgery with no anesthetics and filling out consent forms for permanent constant surgery with no anesthetics.
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Endless torture AND bureaucracy. Please don't make the worst thing worse.
 
Reveen said:
The comic doesn't even begin to address why these... um... doctors(?) aren't being strung up on lampposts by WHO and the AMA. Because it's shady as fuck top secret? I don't remember.
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If someone wants willingly to donate their universally-accepted organs over and over to save hundreds of lives, why stop her? The principle of the matter?
 
Polokun said:
If someone wants willingly to donate their universally-accepted organs over and over to save hundreds of lives, why stop her? The principle of the matter?
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For the same reason we stop people from selling organs now:;we fear greater abuses. Again, less of a worry here but we have general rules for a reason.

What I really wonder is what exactly the AMA can do. If someone wants to donate their organs then they shall. Especially if they have unlimited regeneration, banning them from hospitals does nothing but make them less uncomfortable.
 
So here's an interesting saying I heard on TV not too long ago, and it made me think about how we talk about characters in Worm who do bad things, but bring up justifications/reasonings/ or in the case of people like Regent, Mental deficiency. It's more of a question in general then towards any character specifically though:

If you deny the evil of an action, does it in turn deny responsibility of said action?
 
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