But I wasn't talking about my position, I was talking about seeing people who would flat-out say "No woman is attracted to this dude." No reference to presentation, no qualifiers, no respect for women as individuals with varying tastes and interests (to borrow some sarcasm from my favorite feminist blogger, 'almost like people!')... basically, sexist jerks, but they were kinda noisy and hard to avoid.
Well, that's silly of them, frankly. Part of the fantasy is being attractive, and sometimes being attractive is plenty when it comes to wanting to draw porn or whatever. Arguing that no women are attracted to, say, Chris Evans as Steve Rogers or whatever because Steve Rogers is a power fantasy is taking the reasonable argument that he's not sexualized in the same way women often are to an unreasonable conclusion.
 
Actually I am very curious, because... see my comment about venn diagrams.

Mostly bears or twinks. Noticably different from how dudes are drawn in hetero smut or how superheroes are drawn in comics. (Well, some of the time. I've seen some very barrel chested renditions of guys like Superman or Batman in comics.)
 
I think that the best way to sum it up is that virtually no media portrays men as subs and/or bottoms.
That's not really fully accurate to what I'm saying - my first example of the 50 Shades movie involved Christian being a dominant partner in a (very toxic, very unhealthy, basically abusive) BDSM relationship.

It's not just about being a sub or a dom or a top or a bottom, even though there is definitely something there that men are generally allowed to be portrayed as sexually powerful and in control in a sanitized way. It's about the refusal to portray men as objects of desire, in all the myriad ways that you can do that.
 
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Being Monster Hunter, and as FFXIV did it in the same way, "cutting tails" just means the tail pops off bloodlessly with a cartoonish cross-section. (There are also gameplay effects, but that's tangential to the point.) But according to ratings boards, dismemberment is dismemberment.

Hmmm. I wonder if there's more to it than that, because ESRB Ratings Guides, Categories, Content Descriptors says "May contain bloodless dismemberment" under Violence. And FFXIV, if this page is accurate, started out with that one. (MHW doesn't have Intense Violence either, just Violence.) I'm kinda stumped, unless it was just 'the raters were being squirrely that day'.

Incidentally, after checking over the ratings on some titles I'm familiar with, I wouldn't be surprised if 'skimpy costumes' would be enough to at least get Mild Suggestive Themes.

-Morgan.
 
When ever someone says "no X would be attracted to Y", it canbe safely be assumed that either they are exaggerating for effect, or just plain wrong.
 
Quiet wears basically a bikini with some extras. Seeing her in a game being equated to sexual misconduct is some Victorian level puritanism.

I get thinking her design is silly or not fitting, but comparing seeing her to something that actually hurts people is disrespectful to people who have been victims of actual assault.
 
Yeah, like, it's a dumb outfit and a dumb explanation ('she breathes through her skin', really?) and she's exploitatively sexualised, but it's not, you know, any more or worse than a plethora of other games that came out around the same time?

Hell, there was a Dead or Alive game released the same year, for comparison.
 
I don't know where you all are getting "no one would be attracted to X" from. Every time I've seen it used it's been in the context of pointing out that there's more that goes into the character design then just innocent fanservice for the guys/gals/etc.
 
I don't know where you all are getting "no one would be attracted to X" from. Every time I've seen it used it's been in the context of pointing out that there's more that goes into the character design then just innocent fanservice for the guys/gals/etc.

Mostly that, yes. But I have also seen it as, seemingly unironic, blanket statements. Usually quickly corrected by multiple [insert group that supposedly would never be attracted here.]
 
I think at least part of the reason why Quiet comes off so bad is down to Kojima saying "But once you recognize the secret reason for her exposure, you will feel ashamed of your words & deeds." in response to criticism about her design prerelease and then the secret reason for her exposure was just that she breathes through her skin.
 
Kojima is horny for quiet, but not because she's in a bikini; it's because she breathes through her skin. The photosynthesis is the point. Kojima is horny on levels we can't even comprehend
 
I think that the best way to sum it up is that virtually no media portrays men as subs and/or bottoms.
I see somewhat the opposite. In female-oriented media, heroines are rarely portrayed or coded as dominant. There are examples of equal relationships, more assertive or sick modest characters, to
There are victims of fetishized abusers, but never as outright dominants. Dominant women (as well as women as romanticized abusers) appear much more often in works aimed at a male audience - regardless of the author's gender or orientation. I know female fan artists and webtoons who use such imagery, but their work appeals more to a male audience.
 
Honestly, I think this is one of those subjects where your impression will heavily depend on what kind of media you actually consume. It's entirely possible for both of these to be true for different genres and audiences and it's really quite difficult to get a universal enough overview of popular entertainment in general to say which one is objectively more common.
 
I'm... pretty sure it wouldn't really matter what method you used to measure it, you wouldn't find femdom to be particularly common in any general genre? Like, I've been online for decades, I work in a library, I read voraciously -- my media consumption is fairly specific but exposure is pretty goddamn wide at this point, partially because it's literally part of my job.

Sexually dominant female characters exist, but outside of fairly specific fetish niches they're very much not nearly as common as other options, and that remains pretty darn true across, like... every permutation of genre and author gender I've encountered, in every sort of media I'm aware of. Submissive men are also at least as rare, especially as anything approaching a main character.

I don't think it's actually difficult to get a universal enough overview of popular entertainment in general to say which one is more common, because this is one issue where it's both very obvious and very, very pervasive.
 
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I'm... pretty sure it wouldn't really matter what method you used to measure it, you wouldn't find femdom to be particularly common in any general genre? Like, I've been online for decades, I work in a library, I read voraciously -- my media consumption is fairly specific but exposure is pretty goddamn wide at this point, partially because it's literally part of my job.

Sexually dominant female characters exist, but outside of fairly specific fetish niches they're very much not nearly as common as other options, and that remains pretty darn true across, like... every permutation of genre and author gender I've encountered, in every sort of media I'm aware of. Submissive men are also at least as rare, especially as anything approaching a main character.

I don't think it's actually difficult to get a universal enough overview of popular entertainment in general to say which one is more common, because this is one issue where it's both very obvious and very, very pervasive.

Just. Read stuff with lesbians in it? Romance books and lesbian erotica are both necessarily gonna have a woman taking a more active role in the relationship at some point, yeah?
 
Thinking about it, I wonder if Kida and Milo Thatch from Atlantis count as "submissive man, dominant woman". It's got nothing sexual in it, sure, but their overall personalities feel like they very much fit that sort of view.
 
I'm... pretty sure it wouldn't really matter what method you used to measure it, you wouldn't find femdom to be particularly common in any general genre? Like, I've been online for decades, I work in a library, I read voraciously -- my media consumption is fairly specific but exposure is pretty goddamn wide at this point, partially because it's literally part of my job.
I'll take your word for it. I just wanted to point out that people can receive very different impressions based on their own consumption of media, which can be skewed. I mean, let's be honest, even you are just a single person and your day has 24 hours, just like everyone else's. There are factual, hard limits on how many things you can actually see, even if you spent 18 hours a day doing nothing but reading or watching TV shows. It's a fact of life.
 
Just. Read stuff with lesbians in it? Romance books and lesbian erotica are both necessarily gonna have a woman taking a more active role in the relationship at some point, yeah?
That'd be basically the sole exception (with m/m stuff going with sub men), and existing as a(n unfortunately still too damn small!) subset of general romance writing. Wasn't thinking of it as a broader genre, basically, heh.

I just wanted to point out that people can receive very different impressions based on their own consumption of media, which can be skewed. I mean, let's be honest, even you are just a single person and your day has 24 hours, just like everyone else's. There are factual, hard limits on how many things you can actually see, even if you spent 18 hours a day doing nothing but reading or watching TV shows. It's a fact of life.
I mean, yes, if you require omniscience to be the baseline for this kind of observation, yeah, there's not much room for it, heh.

Some stuff really is just kind of incredibly pervasive, though. This particular issue is one you'd have to be, like, actively curating to avoid to miss how common it is, and I'm not even sure that would be enough. You don't exactly just trip over a preponderance of femdom or male sub material in your media consumption, and you very much do trip over the inverse.
 
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Some stuff really is just kind of incredibly pervasive, though. This particular issue is one you'd have to be, like, actively curating to avoid to miss how common it is, and I'm not even sure that would be enough. You don't exactly just trip over a preponderance of femdom or male sub material in your media consumption, and you very much do trip over the inverse.
Well, that is true and I was hardly claiming the opposite. *shrug*
 
in response to criticism about her design prerelease and then the secret reason for her exposure was just that she breathes through her skin.

That isn't what he was referring to. This has come up so many times on SV, but while Quiet's photosynthesis is the in-universe justification, there is a wholly different storytelling reason. To some degree or another she is commentary on heroines in video games: she'll die if puts clothes on and the men around her will die if she speaks, yet in the end it's her own own decision that saves you and the whole world. It's hardly subtle, and it is very extremely late in 2015 lol, but that's the reason from a writing perspective. You can choose your own adventure on whether it works or is necessary, but that's the secret reason. Everything else is just some science fiction stuff that Ocelot reads off a clipboard.

This is not to say that Quiet's design is not intended to also just be straightforwardly sexy. The soles of Stephanie Joosten's feet were rendered in incredible detail and high res renders of her design were released specifically to encourage cosplayers. In that respect he's no different to Yoko Taro asking for people to send him porn, but frankly the Yoko Taro corollary is only ever applied to Yoko Taro :V
 
If you've ever found yourself saying 'I respect Yoko Taro for being honest about it' ask yourself this: would you extend the same latitude to Takaki Kenichiro, the creator of Senran Kagura? :V
 
If you've ever found yourself saying 'I respect Yoko Taro for being honest about it' ask yourself this: would you extend the same latitude to Takaki Kanichiro, the creator of Senran Kagura? :V
I have some respect for him but not for being honest about being horny.

No, rather it is for having the balls to write a character going "I was training when suddenly I found that time stopped. I got angry and punched time, which broke it and that's how I ended up here."
 
I'm... pretty sure it wouldn't really matter what method you used to measure it, you wouldn't find femdom to be particularly common in any general genre? Like, I've been online for decades, I work in a library, I read voraciously -- my media consumption is fairly specific but exposure is pretty goddamn wide at this point, partially because it's literally part of my job.

Sexually dominant female characters exist, but outside of fairly specific fetish niches they're very much not nearly as common as other options, and that remains pretty darn true across, like... every permutation of genre and author gender I've encountered, in every sort of media I'm aware of. Submissive men are also at least as rare, especially as anything approaching a main character.

I don't think it's actually difficult to get a universal enough overview of popular entertainment in general to say which one is more common, because this is one issue where it's both very obvious and very, very pervasive.
My vagueish vibes is that females in works aimed at females can be aggressive but not dominant because the first is being proactive in relationship matters and the second is how they like their relationships to proceed and the majority of females like being 'sub' (for a very broad definition of that term) and so wouldn't be interested in a dominant female protag. Which ends up that femdom stuff is either aimed at lesbians (on account that if you want any kind of dom/sub relationship you have to pick one of the girls) and at works aimed at men (I'm less sure why on this but there clearly is a market)

On thinking, I suppose that, purely from the perspective of the 'average' (heterosexual) female, femdom is male pandering. Which is not to say that there are no females interested in it but on net more girls are interested in wearing a leotard and high heels to fight evil than femdom.
 
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