Warhammer 40k General thread

[Rgal]

That's a terrible justification. It is, in fact, the *worst* justification possible because you're freely admitting you have none. No shit 'you want to', or we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.


If it were "inconsequential" you would not be asking for it.

My fun is reduced by you changing what's been established for 40+ years on a whim and then poisoning the well against any counter-argument for why it's a bad move. If you can't stand the idea that Space Marines are all male then why are you here at all?

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What kind of justification do you expect to see, if not "because somebody wants to"? It's a bloody tabletop game. The only reason for any of the minitatures to exist is because somebody wants to have fun with them. The only reason for any piece of lore to exist is because somebody wants to have fun roleplaying it.

WH40k doesn't have anything "established for 40+ years". Tyranids and genestealers used to be completely unrelated. Necrons used to be magic androids made by space chaos dwarves. Space dwarves used to be extinct. Leman Russ used to be, like, a normal space marine instead of a wolf-obsessed eugenically produced psyker. There was at least one Khornate sorcerer. If you can't stand the idea of something changing, why are you here at all?

 

[Kuja]

Now, whether or not female space marines make thematic sense in the world of 40k is a different question that I'm not sure I'm equipped to answer, but from a pure world building perspective there's literally nothing stopping female space marines beyond GW's disinclination.

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Put crudely, there is no thematic to space marines in particular or 40k in general that is so intricate it will not survive the inclusion of a double-X gene.

Alright. For real. Anyone reading this, come a little closer.

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No, closer than that.

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No no my friend, I mean closer.

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Closer.

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OK a little too close.

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That's good.

I'm going to share with you the secrets of GW's space marine creation process. Every step and secret to creating space marine characters and their chapters. And for free, I'll throw in the Kuja-patented extra secret step (works every time) to making female space marines.

How to Create a Space Marine:

Step 1: Pick from one of the following: [influential figure from general history][figure from military history][figure from ancient myth][figure from classic literature][figure from scifi/genre fiction].

Step 2: Change the letters if you're feeling saucy to disguise the reference or make it cutesy so that nerds see it and go 'aha, I recognize that reference!'.

Step 3: Put them in a chapter that fits their thematic reference.

How to Create a Space Marine Chapter:

Step 1: Pick from one of the following: [really cool historical warrior sect][really cool mythological warrior sect][really cool scifi/genre fiction warrior sect].

Step 2: Change the letters if you're feeling saucy to disguise the reference or make it cutesy so that nerds see it and go 'aha, I recognize that reference!'.

Step 3: Give them a homeworld and equipment and fighting style that fits their thematic reference.

You have now Done A Space Marine the Games Workshop Way. Congratulations! Now, as promised, here's the secret special technique for adding female space marines into the mix:

Step 4: Refer to as many as you want with she/her pronouns.

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It is literally that easy. Here's an example you can follow at home:


View: https://flagcaptainart.tumblr.com/post/177784415205/a-commission-for-starcunning-of-their-and

Antigone (left) belongs to my wife. Euryale (right) is mine.

Our Wrath and Glory campaign was based around the Ultramarines creating a new successor chapter, with veterans being drawn from several existing chapters to helm the new organization. Antigone came from the Ultramarines themselves, a chaplain sent to ensure discipline was instilled in the new recruits and that the Codex Astartes would be followed properly by the emerging chapter. A Calth-born recruit herself, she is strict and orthodox. Euryale came from the Iron Snakes, and was recruited as one of their respected apothecaries. She is known as 'the Stone-Faced' due to her disinclination to show emotion.

Antigone is of course taken from the famous play, while Euryale was one of the three gorgon sisters (picked because Medusa is over-referenced).

And that's it. That's literally it. Female names and references instead of male ones. This is the supposed destruction of 40k's thematics. Give me a fucking break.

I also want male sisters of battle, for the record.

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For all intents and purpose, they already exist, they're just not represented as a unified army on the tabletop. The Sisters were preceded by the Frateris Templars, who got BTFO by the space marines during the Age of Apostasy and so aren't fielded in mass numbers anymore. That doesn't stop figures like Witchfinder Tantalid from the Eisenhorn series from existing, or the fanatical Crusaders you can use as part of an Inquisition army as the church tries to skirt around the Decree Passive (mentioned on the lexicanum article).

(I've always found it funny that the Sisters are constantly mentioned as the equivalent of the space marines when in fact they're not a wholly-female army - they've always had male priests as HQ options and for the longest time one of their two heroes was Uriah Jacobus, although I think he's finally been just recently retired from the TT. 9th Edition has gone a long way to actually make the Sisters all female [not least of all finally adding more HQ characters alongside Celestine], although the priests are still in there.)

 

[Tithed_Verse]

That sounds like a 'you' problem.

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And you being upset about it is a 'you' problem.

Racial and sexual segregation in schools, yes.

Pointless segregation is pointless segregation regardless of context, and if female space marines upset you this much that's very much a you problem.

Besides, from a strictly capitalist viewpoint, GW is leaving money on the table by not providing them.


And I also want male sisters of battles. Liberté, égalité, fraternité. and all that.

 

[HalfTangible]

Again, the Imperium can do anything, because the Imperium isn't real and exists only as a creation of the GW creative team.

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Fiction
Doesn't
Work
Like
That

 

[Arthur Frayn]

Fiction
Doesn't
Work
Like
That

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Uh, yes it absolutely does. Fiction is, you know, fictional. It's all make believe, it's just a question of how skillfully the creative team executes the magic trick of making the audience accept the unreality of the fictional world.

I'm not saying that you can just arbitrarily change the rules whenever you like - lack of consistency is a pretty clear hallmark of shitty writing. What I'm saying is that there's literally nothing stopping the GW team from crafting a reason to justify female Space Marines beyond "I don't want to". They themselves are the creators of the universe, they can put whatever they want into it however they want, whenever they want. The 40k universe does not exist separately from GW - they don't have to be beholden to it because it's somehow "real" and needs to be honored as such.

Again, the trick is just doing it in a way where (a majority of) the audience subconsciously accepts it.

Like, I'm not sure I can put it simpler than that. How else do you think fiction works?

 

[HalfTangible]

And you being upset about it is a 'you' problem.

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I'm upset because you have compared 'this faction only has males for biological and cultural reasons' to IRL racial and sexual segregation in schools. Most people get upset when you accuse them - or things they like - of being immoral.

You are upset because of something you earlier claimed was inconsequential.

Besides, from a strictly capitalist viewpoint, GW is leaving money on the table by not providing them.

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And you base this on what?

If you can't stand the idea of something changing, why are you here at all?

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Because I enjoy the game and its lore.

If you don't like what's here, and openly say it's immoral, why are you here?

I'm not saying that you can just arbitrarily change the rules whenever you like

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That's exactly what you just said:

If GW decided that there's now women/trans/nb Space Marines, then ipso facto the Imperium can create women/trans/nb/whatever Space Marines. There's nothing stopping GW from doing so beyond their own disinterest. The game's lore is not fixed or somehow separate from GW - they wrote the lore, they can rewrite it whenever they want.

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[Jensaarai]

What world have you been living in, where GW runs a tight ship on keeping their lore and worldbuilding consistent across the decades, never retconning or changing anything because they felt like it or because they just went where the money lead them.

 

[Rgal]

Because I enjoy the game and its lore.

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Again, which lore? Do you just unconditionally enjoy the lore of whatever is in the last edition of every codex? Then you better not complain if GW decides that actually all Space Marines are girls now or whatever else they decide to do in the grimdark future of third millenium. Or do you, perhaps, have a favored piece of lore that you would prefer to not see change ever? Then you better have a justification for why this is the lore you decided on instead of the lore of yesteryears. Or the one they had the year before yesteryear, beacause that was also a thing.

You can't demand everybody else to have "justifications" for their preferences while also demanding your preferences to be unquestioned.

 

[Tithed_Verse]

And you base this on what?

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Look at how much demand, In this thread alone! there is for female space marines! People are resorting to kitbashing their own!

That's money on the table, that is!

 

[Arthur Frayn]

I'm upset because you have compared 'this faction only has males for biological and cultural reasons' to IRL racial and sexual segregation in schools. Most people get upset when you accuse them - or things they like - of being immoral.

You are upset because of something you earlier claimed was inconsequential.



And you base this on what?



Because I enjoy the game and its lore.

If you don't like what's here, and openly say it's immoral, why are you here?


That's exactly what you just said:

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I mean, first off no one is saying that you're a bad person for liking a tabletop game they find problematic. You don't need to get all huffed up and defensive, no one AFAICT is saying you, specifically, are a Bad Person.

Second off please note I said that any said changes need to be well executed - that's kind've the difference between "good lore change/retcon" and "shitty and underbaked lore change/retcon".

And like...what's your point? You argued that fiction doesn't work like that (with dramatic word separation and everything!), and you still haven't presented a counterpoint beyond "No You Are Wrong".

If you disagree, why? How does fiction then work in your view?

 

[HalfTangible]

What world have you been living in, where GW runs a tight ship on keeping their lore and worldbuilding consistent across the decades, never retconning or changing anything because they felt like it or because they just went where the money lead them.

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Makin' a LOT of assumptions right now.

"WELL WHAT ABOUT ALL THESE RETCONS YOU LIKED"

Never said i liked 'em.

You can't demand everybody else to have "justifications" for their preferences while also demanding your preferences to be unquestioned.

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I didn't do that. I didn't do anything *like* that. Retcons and lore changes across the board piss me off, even if the "new" lore is stuff that I like or would've liked (Fuck you Riot, fuck off Star Wars and your goddamn 'inhibitor chip' nonsense). The Primaris are controversial in no small part because their lore is so batshit.

The more you do this, the more you change things that have been previously established, the more it hurts your world, because without consistency whatever you've currently got doesn't mean anything. What's stopping the Emperor from getting off his golden chair, marrying Slaanesh and turning the warp from hell into heaven? Same answer: Slaanesh, the Emperor, and the Warp don't work like that

But I do notice you haven't even tried to say 'well it'd be a better story with female space marines'. Can you?

 

[Arthur Frayn]

Makin' a LOT of assumptions right now.

"WELL WHAT ABOUT ALL THESE RETCONS YOU LIKED"

Never said i liked 'em.



I didn't do that. I didn't do anything *like* that. Retcons and lore changes across the board piss me off, even if the "new" lore is stuff that I like or would've liked (Fuck you Riot, fuck off Star Wars and your goddamn 'inhibitor chip' nonsense). The Primaris are controversial in no small part because their lore is so batshit.

The more you do this, the more you change things that have been previously established, the more it hurts your world, because without consistency whatever you've currently got doesn't mean anything. What's stopping the Emperor from getting off his golden chair, marrying Slaanesh and turning the warp from hell into heaven? Same answer: Slaanesh, the Emperor, and the Warp don't work like that

But I do notice you haven't even tried to say 'well it'd be a better story with female space marines'. Can you?

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Would the story be worse with a female space marine?

 

[Jensaarai]

Abandon morality, embrace Tyranids.

Makin' a LOT of assumptions right now.

"WELL WHAT ABOUT ALL THESE RETCONS YOU LIKED"

Never said i liked 'em.

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Nah, just wondering why you're suddenly going to bat against the fan idea of "female Space Marines", using this rather in-context weak argument of lore consistency and fictional justifications when... well, when GW has basically never really cared about those things when it comes time to change or retcon something.

 

[HalfTangible]

Nah, just wondering why you're suddenly going to bat against the fan idea of "female Space Marines", using this rather in-context weak argument of lore consistency and fictional justifications when... well, when GW has basically never really cared about those things when it comes time to change or retcon something.

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"why you're suddenly going to bat"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
'suddenly'... right. Because I'm the aggressor here.



Fan idea? I don't have a problem with fanworks. Raven Knight did a female primarch with her own all-female Legion that I really liked for its take on the Gorgon, and the Fighting Tigers of Veda were really cool Buddhist marines (RIP to the website).

You're not asking for fanworks.

 

[Rgal]

Makin' a LOT of assumptions right now.

"WELL WHAT ABOUT ALL THESE RETCONS YOU LIKED"

Never said i liked 'em.



I didn't do that. I didn't do anything *like* that. Retcons and lore changes across the board piss me off, even if the "new" lore is stuff that I like or would've liked (Fuck you Riot, fuck off Star Wars and your goddamn 'inhibitor chip' nonsense). The Primaris are controversial in no small part because their lore is so batshit.

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If there's one thing that stayed consistent in WH40k across the decades, it's not "Space Marines are dudes", it's "retcons, retcons everywhere". If "why are you here if you don't like all-male space marines" is a fair question, then "why are you here if you don't like retcons" is even more so.

Warhammer 40K is made of retcons that you hate so much. Why are you in a thread dedicated to it, then? Alternatively, why are you demanding people who think Female Space Marines would be neat to tell you why they are here?

 

[Parth]

Again, the Imperium can do anything, because the Imperium isn't real and exists only as a creation of the GW creative team.

If GW decided that there's now women/trans/nb Space Marines, then ipso facto the Imperium can create women/trans/nb/whatever Space Marines. There's nothing stopping GW from doing so beyond their own disinterest. The game's lore is not fixed or somehow separate from GW - they wrote the lore, they can rewrite it whenever they want.

Like I said, there's maybe a discussion about whether the Imperium being an equal opportunity employer makes thematic sense, given that the Imperium is designed to be the shittiest, most reactionary government imaginable, but from a purely practical standpoint there's literally nothing stopping them.

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Ok, so answer me this.

If what you want is minority representation, then why exactly should it matter how it's done as long as it's a positive portrayal.

Right now GW has the sisters of battle, inquisitors, members of the mechanicus, high lords, assassins, the sisters of silence, high-ranking members of the military, including all-female regiments, and planets that are controlled by a Matriarchy.

Why exactly do you need female space marines? what exactly would having female space marines add for representation that isn't already added by the above?

 

[Arthur Frayn]

Ok, so answer me this.

If what you want is minority representation, then why exactly should it matter how it's done as long as it's a positive portrayal.

Right now GW has the sisters of battle, inquisitors, members of the mechanicus, high lords, assassins, the sisters of silence, high-ranking members of the military, including all-female regiments, and planets that are controlled by a Matriarchy.

Why exactly do you need female space marines? what exactly would having female space marines add for representation that isn't already added by the above?

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I think you've fundamentally misunderstood my point - I don't really care about minority representation in 40k, positive or otherwise. My point is that there's literally nothing stopping GW from creating female Space Marines tomorrow, the only reason they haven't done so is because they (for whatever reason) don't want to. That there are women characters in other aspects of the Imperium is completely besides the point, which is (again) that any barriers to the inclusion of female Space Marines in the game are completely artificial.

Again, fiction is make believe and whatever we want it to be - the 40k universe is not some real, parallel dimension which GW is merely observing and dispassionately recreating in ours. Everything in the game (and everything that's not in the game) is there because they put it there (or chose not to include). These are active creative decisions on behalf of GW that can be scrutinized and criticized, same with any work of fiction.

And like, to turn it around, why don't you want female Space Marines? What exactly would having female Space Marines take away from the game?

 

[HalfTangible]

If there's one thing that stayed consistent in WH40k across the decades, it's not "Space Marines are dudes", it's "retcons, retcons everywhere". If "why are you here if you don't like all-male space marines" is a fair question, then "why are you here if you don't like retcons" is even more so.

Warhammer 40K is made of retcons that you hate so much. Why are you in a thread dedicated to it, then? Alternatively, why are you demanding people who think Female Space Marines would be neat to tell you why they are here?

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I like 40k in spite of its flaws.

You might then say, "me too", but the flaws you're talking about are not about poor story structure or bad decisions made in maintaining a fictional world, your 'flaws' are moral failings.

This particular discussion on female space marines started when someone asked about AMAB trans female space marines. I got into the thick of it only AFTER stratigo said that warhammer deserved to die if it didn't have female space marines. Tithed_Verse said the community shouldn't have existed in the first place. 'Space marines can only be male' (in this fictional setting) was compared to segregation in schools. Not in-universe, either, but as an out-of-universe condemnation.

All of this in an attempt to justify - nay, demand - changing something that you also freely admit is inconsequential.

You do not get to say that something you participate in is morally wrong and then ask why someone else is here.

 

[Parth]

I think you've fundamentally misunderstood my point - I don't really care about minority representation in 40k, positive or otherwise. My point is that there's literally nothing stopping GW from creating female Space Marines tomorrow, the only reason they haven't done so is because they (for whatever reason) don't want to. That there are women characters in other aspects of the Imperium is completely besides the point, which is (again) that any barriers to the inclusion of female Space Marines in the game are completely artificial.

Again, fiction is make believe and whatever we want it to be - the 40k universe is not some real, parallel dimension which GW is merely observing and dispassionately recreating in ours. Everything in the game (and everything that's not in the game) is there because they put it there (or chose not to include). These are active creative decisions on behalf of GW that can be scrutinized and criticized, same with any work of fiction.

And like, to turn it around, why don't you want female Space Marines? What exactly would having female Space Marines take away from the game?

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So if you don't care about minority representation, why exactly did you reply to a post that is specifically talking about minority representation?

And to answer your question it's because I don't see any reason why female space marines are needed.

What would female space marines add that the sisters of battle don't?

 

[IfIhadaHammer]

I find it laughable that female space marines would be more setting destroying than bringing back Squats as a human civilization that outright defies the standard assumptions of the imperium, I.E. angry violent bigotry against AIs and Xenos, as in the sympathy for the heretic thread I was told multiple times was completely impossible as humans just can't trust AIs or Xenos.

And yet the only reactions I'm seeing to the Votann reveals are either "wow cool models" or "I wish they were a bit more dorfy"

 

[Arthur Frayn]

So if you don't care about minority representation, why exactly did you reply to a post that is specifically talking about minority representation?

And to answer your question it's because I don't see any reason why female space marines are needed.

What would female space marines add that the sisters of battle don't?

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Uh, I responded to your post which mentioned minority representation in order to re-state my point that fiction is fiction and thus can be changed whenever in order to support the story. I thought your argument, rooted in "You can't change 40k and there are other ladies in other groups!", was mistaken and stated as such.

Pretty cut and dry, not sure why you keep pressing this line of questioning like it's a gotcha or something.

And okay but like, why are they not needed? If adding female Space Marines is a value neutral proposition then it doesn't matter either way if they're included.

 

[Rgal]

You might then say, "me too", but the flaws you're talking about are not about poor story structure or bad decisions made in maintaining a fictional world, your 'flaws' are moral failings.
[snip]
You do not get to say that something you participate in is morally wrong and then ask why someone else is here.

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Um, no, I am saying that fun things good, and Female Space Marines fun, therefore Female Space Marines good.

Also, introducing Female Space Marines wouldn't make story structure of WH40K any poorer. Wouldn't even need a retcon. Geneseed already mutates willy-nilly, why can't it mutate in such a way that makes stable FSM possible? Such a thing happening on a planet with a shortage of male SM candidates wouldn't even be in the top half of most contrived things in WH40k's lore.

 

[HalfTangible]

Um, no, I am saying that fun things good, and Female Space Marines fun, therefore Female Space Marines good.

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Throwing in whatever "fun" thing you can think of does not make for good stories.

Also: I did not pull that shit out of my ass and even went out of my way to cite the specific posters.

Also, introducing Female Space Marines wouldn't make story structure of WH40K any poorer. Wouldn't even need a retcon. Geneseed already mutates willy-nilly, why can't it mutate in such a way that makes stable FSM possible? Such a thing happening on a planet with a shortage of male SM candidates wouldn't even be in the top half of most contrived things in WH40k's lore.

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Mutation in Warhammer is usually seen as a sign of chaos corruption. Geneseed in particular is carefully monitored and any chapter that deviates from its initial genetic template beyond the norm is usually just killed or allowed to die.

Also the scenario you outline is what the Fighting Tigers did, deliberately via their apothecaries tampering with the geneseed in a way that got the Inquisition on their backs. But you don't want a single chapter doing this, you want a model line for them.

I find it laughable that female space marines would be more setting destroying than bringing back Squats as a human civilization that outright defies the standard assumptions of the imperium, I.E. angry violent bigotry against AIs and Xenos, as in the sympathy for the heretic thread I was told multiple times was completely impossible as humans just can't trust AIs or Xenos.

And yet the only reactions I'm seeing to the Votann reveals are either "wow cool models" or "I wish they were a bit more dorfy"

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-Squats were a human offshoot to begin with so I don't know who was telling you they'd hate them because xenos
-The League are explicitly in a tense relationship with the Imperium
-The AI are kept secret
-Nobody ever claimed that bringing back the Squats was a moral imperative
-You really haven't seen anyone talking about how dumb it is that the Leagues are considered neutral with the Imperium?

And okay but like, why are they not needed? If adding female Space Marines is a value neutral proposition then it doesn't matter either way if they're included.

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They aren't "value neutral".

They take away from what makes the SM unique, they take away from what makes SoB unique, they require multiple substantial retcons, there is no indication that the models would sell, they would not make the world any better, nor is there any story you could tell with a female space marine that you can't with a male, and several that fall more flat. You don't even get the diversity in the model line you want because you're just asking for yet more space marines.

It's a bad idea for the same reason the Primaris were a bad idea, except with the Primaris you at least had ostensibly cooler-looking truescale models.

 

[ShyPerson]

My handling of the idea of female space Marines is readied in a unusual form: a threat. In the event that I write something 40k related in the future and someone annoys me with something like "the imperium is not fascist" or "its not canon" canard, I will threaten to turn half of any space Marines present female, including going back to edit previous scenes.

 

[BossFight]

So others have already said this in better words then I, but my opinion on Female Space Marines is the same as my opinion on anything that makes the Imperium better or more inclusive:

I don't like it. The Imperium is meant to be the bloodiest and most regressive regime imaginable, a satire and the logical conclusion of fascist governments. It is meant to be a dark mirror of our society, a dark mirror which shows the horrors of failings in our society by pushing those failings to their most extreme. They are the bad guys.

That said, I understand the desire for inclusion and that non-imperial forces being diverse will never be a valid substituent for diversity in the imperium given GW's continued insistence on making the Imperium the main characters of the line.