The Curious Fan
Perpetually sleep deprived
Always remember that if your robot has a brain you can't just treat it like a tool, you've got to respect it's rights.
Warhammer 40k General thread
- Thread starter Alex
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Agreed, it's several entirely avoidable mistakes.
The Curious Fan
Perpetually sleep deprived
Irrelevant. The important parts of it are Karkasy being immediately beaten nearly to death and then command deciding that he's the one at fault and needs some more punishment.
Claudette Savagely
Ball of flies
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The Orks appear to have been largely quiescent during this period, although that could be because as you say, they were unable to get past the metaphorical wall of steel encircling human space and were soundly crushed every time they tried.
Not a lot Nobs with big 'eavy shootas can do against a storm of invisible machine mouths that eats their flesh and etches their bones to dust in seconds, after all.
Given their continued existence during the Golden/Dark age, it doesn't appear that wiping them out was a priority, however.
That in turn suggests that these strategic weapons were kept around for preserving intra-human political stalemates, holding the Eldar or other prominent alien powers at bay, or else because Golden Age humanity was in love with its own machines and delighted in their power to kill on this scale, as the Eldar did at the apogee of their power.
Perhaps all three.
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Rule 4: Don’t Be Disruptive
You've spent pages of this thread stubbornly denying the Imperium's fascism while also claiming that anyone who does recognize fascism when they see it is actually responsible for the nazis infesting the fandom.
If you don't want to be accused of carrying water for fascists, you shouldn't tell everyone to ignore the nazi elephant in the room.
Kuja
I'M A SQUIIIID
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All of the Horus Heresy books were mistakes. The Black Library stable was utterly unprepared to write 30k as a meaningfully different setting from 40k, and it was a problem that exploded the same way the book series did. And it changed 40k in general for the worse as well, as all those writers then started porting their Heresy-era stuff in 40k to write sequel books and consequences which which shoved all of 40k's other aspects off to the side to focus entirely on the Chaos/Imperium war, AKA the stupidest conflict that can't ever be resolved without blowing up the entire setting a la the old world, and the conflict which makes the Imperium retroactively justified in literally everything because the need for escalation kept giving Chaos more and more power and because Chaos is such a darker-than-black faction all the Imperium's grimdark nonsense morphed into po-faced 'but we have to' as justification to keep Chaos at bay.
Like once upon a time, M41 was supposed to be a shit time to live in even by the standards of 40k. When we saw the crumbling infrastructure, the deadlocked government, the ineffectual justice system (huh this is all sounding really familiar...) we were supposed to be seeing a galactic civilization in its last days before the big collapse. M40, M39, M38, etc, they were not like this. They had bad times, but in M41 the bad times had swelled to encompass all times, and the bad times got even worse. But then were started writing M31, and it turned out to be just a slightly different flavor of grimdark even pre-Heresy, and M41 turned out to be nothing terribly special. And then we started porting the primarchs into modern day because primarchs are cool and also GW needs to release a new line of space marines that they can ferociously copywrite because they're butthurt about being slapped down in court.
15 years of the HH series gave 40k brainrot, and that's before we get into the absolute nonsense in the series itself like the constant retcons, the navelgazing, the idiotic shock twists, the grimdarkness of the far past, and especially the perpetuals and the assassination of MLK. Were there a few good ideas? Were there a few good moments? Were there a few good books? Yes, but they got drowned out by the sheer amount of awful coming out of BL and GW for the better part of ten years. It's only recently as the Heresy series winds down and people seem to be waking up to the fact they really can't milk it forever that we're starting to see more alien-centric stuff again, and I can't wait to see the Imperium/Chaos stuff to take a god damn backseat for awhile.
Now before someone else points it out, I'll do it myself - all the problems 40k has with its fanbase and its darker-than-dark thematics existed before the Horus Heresy series. But the Heresy series made it worse by bringing a laser focus on the worst aspects of the franchise and also trying to be Mature and Thoughtful and Philosophical which ended up carrying so much water for the worst elements of their fanbase while GW sat quietly and raked in the cash and only recently started speaking up once it became clear that their brand was not just attracting literal Nazis (who have always infested the 40k club) but that their IP was becoming more and more widely recognized as being associated with Nazis.
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I was aware of that, yep. But there's an aspiration to improve on some level, as opposed to the "this is all we can be" attitude which sets in with the Heresy and especially the Siege. Guilliman's dreams of Ultramar being an example of what the Imperium could become die with Calth. Russ sets aside his wondering of what would come next because the Wolves will never not be needed to wreak carnage. Dorn will have to admit that no, the Palace cannot go back to what it was. In Sigismund, the notion of what an Astartes can be has contracted to this terrible killing edge.
The Remembrancers were the ones who wanted him sent home, because they felt that he was giving them a bad name, the novel doesn't say what military command wanted to do.
And I've spent pages saying, yes I fully agree that you could interpret the imperium as being fascist. Fascists and nazis are going to coopt anything for their own agenda, making it easier for them by calling the imperium fascist aren't helping.
The fact that I see the imperium as being a quasi-religious totalitarian regime rather than a fascist state is because I see the very blatant and obvious religious tones of 40K. And I go, yes, this is a satire of what could happen if humanity's worst aspects towards religion were amped up.
My point is that I know the imperium is the bad guys, I see them as the bad guys because they're completely and utterly religious fanatics. I don't see them as fascists because from my point of view fascism is an overused and over abused word.
You literally sat here and called me a fascist apologist because I don't agree with you. Despite the fact that I have not done anything but disagree with your assessment of 40K.
I gave you all the reasons why I think that 40K is a satire of religious fanatism, you gave me all the reasons why you think it's a satire of fascism.
Maybe we're both right and 40K is a satire of whatever the fuck we want it to be?
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How is admitting that the empire is fascist going to help fascists co opt, what, the empire, the fandom, the hobby, what?
No, seriously, what?
That argument is nonsensical.
When, at any time, has ignoring fascists or denying that something is fascist been anything but useful to fascists?
And for the record, i do not think you are a fascist or are trying to protect fascists.
I think you are a fan of 40k and get upset when people point out the fascism in the setting and would rather people stop doing it.
I could be wrong, if so, please enlighten us.
No, seriously, what?
That argument is nonsensical.
When, at any time, has ignoring fascists or denying that something is fascist been anything but useful to fascists?
And for the record, i do not think you are a fascist or are trying to protect fascists.
I think you are a fan of 40k and get upset when people point out the fascism in the setting and would rather people stop doing it.
I could be wrong, if so, please enlighten us.
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He wants to reform it.... back to the crusade/scouring era. Where it was more unified, stronger, it's religious orthodoxy was different. So.... to be more fascist then it is now
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I'd like to remind you how this whole argument started.
You loudly objected, out of nowhere, to people calling the obvious fascist regime fascist, and then blamed them for the nazis in the fandom. This is why I'm saying that, regardless of your intentions, you are doing the work of fascists.
Fascists don't want people using that word. They know it has baggage, and calling it what it is can turn away people who might otherwise be receptive to the idea. So they don't call it that, they try and muddy the waters and make it so that any accusation of fascism (fictional or otherwise) is met with loud objections, hairsplitting over minor definitions, obvious stonewalling, and anything else they can do to give people an excuse to not call fascism what it is.
Pretty much agree with this. The 40k setting works well as a tragedy, the wreckage of a dream that went terribly wrong. Unfortunately, the HH books have revealed that dream was crap, meaning everything is now thematically incoherent.
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I dunno, revealing that actually there wasn't a golden time when mass-murdering nonhumans and crushing dissidents (which was canonically what was going on even before the HH novels came into being) was purer and better and the Emperor made people Euphobic by their own Enlightenment seems pretty on theme.
Just so we're clear I'm not saying that we should ignore the fascists in the hobby, they're a problem that needs to be addressed. What I am saying is that 40K needs to become less appealing to fascists.
Fascism is evil, I personally think that it's better left in the bowels of history, not something that should be used in a tabletop game, 40K is a game geared towards youths you know, you really think a ten-year-old is going to look at the imperium and understand that it's supposed to be a satire of fascism?
Or are they going to see tanks and powered armored troops shooting at hordes of aliens and think that looks cool? Despite GW's intentions, 40K is in fact whitewashing fascism. Instead of being a horrid ideology that plunged the world into war and cost the lives of millions. It's humans fighting shoulder to shoulder against unrelenting hordes of aliens in a desperate last stand.
You do understand just why someone might have a problem with that right?
For the record I also disapprove of Hearts of Iron, axis, and allies, and bolt action. You know games where you can play as actual nazis. My disapproval of people calling 40K fascist is done for the exact same reason why I disapprove of them.
Stop: Thread locked for review.
Stop: Engage the POST not the POSTER
Miho Chan
One with too many ideas
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rule 4 and 3
The Users Terra Novan, Claudette Savagely, and Don Alverzo have been infracted for failing to follow the Rules of Sufficient Velocity and removed from the thread. In the future, please keep in mind that SV does not tolerate attacking the poster. Additionally, the thread has been unlocked.
The Users Terra Novan, Claudette Savagely, and Don Alverzo have been infracted for failing to follow the Rules of Sufficient Velocity and removed from the thread. In the future, please keep in mind that SV does not tolerate attacking the poster. Additionally, the thread has been unlocked.
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I don't think your position in this thread really makes sense, @Parth . Especially, calling to mind your post in another thread in which, despite saying that you believe that 40k is a "satire of religious fanaticism" you defended the 40k Empire as having "what I would call religious freedom."
If Warhammer 40k is primarily a satire on the evils of religious intolerance and theocracy (which I don't think it is, but granting that...), then defending the Empire's supposed religious tolerance doesn't really make sense?
If Warhammer 40k is primarily a satire on the evils of religious intolerance and theocracy (which I don't think it is, but granting that...), then defending the Empire's supposed religious tolerance doesn't really make sense?
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I'm trying to grasp at your point, and failing.
How is not telling this hypothetical ten year old that the people they are looking at are fascists going to help?
This is the weirdest "think of the children" argument i can remember encountering.
It's not even on the level of "let's not tell them about fascists" its "let's show them the coolest possible depiction of fascism and not tell them about the evil bits".
BEcause they would think fascists are cool?
Like, if that is a realistic concern, then maybe instead of just not speaking the forbidden word of power lest we summon the shade of the Austrian, we just shutter the whole thing down because clearly there is nothing left to be done.
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It also just makes sense given the context. Admittedly balancing the sense of Unity as very much a relative golden age is a balance which not all the Black Library stable are capable of, but 30K is not by any stretch humanity being totally secure.
Though I do wonder if having a bit more emphasis on the most frightening opposition faced in the Crusade might've helped. It's there in some of the Black Library books - the first campaign in Jaghatai's Primarchs book is an example that springs to mind for me - but I know that for the most part, it's something I'm getting from the Forge World Black Books.
There's no reason why they have to be mutually exclusive, the imperial cult being made up of a million worlds that all worship the emperor in different ways while being religiously fanatically about it isn't a contradiction.
The Imperium doesn't try to force a planet or the entire imperium is worship the emperor the Terran way, they work to subtly change the local religion into being part of the imperial cult.
If someone's method of worshipping the emperor is kneeling and praying and another person method is to spin around in a circle making airplane noises, both are worshipping the emperor and both can be fanatically loyal.
Unless kids have changed since I was in school finding someone who drew a swastika on something because it looks cool is more or less a dime a dozen. That's even with them knowing about the connotations of the symbol.
My point is that people aren't going to see the imperium as being a fascist regime, they're going to see tons of explosions, warriors in power armor, and fuck huge mechs and tanks duking it out on the battlefield.
So either the lore and novels are going to have to make it more clear that you're not supposed to be rooting for the empire. Or the idea that the imperium is fascist has to change.
Like I already stated, I personally find it irritating when the imperium is referred to as fascist because it tends to ignore the incredibly obvious religious themes of 40K and 30K. Not to mention that in terms of satire it's far far more obvious what's being made fun of.
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...the answer to that is pretty obvious, lol. Honestly, the Lore is already painfully blunt in that you're not supposed to be rooting for the Empire. It should probably be even more painfully blunt, but there are still...
Wait, also.
Do you not know what Falangism is? Literally Catholic-seeped Fascism. Fascism and religion are not actually contrary to one another?
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Also, Italian Fascism had a great working relationship with Catholicism (or at least a decent one) and the Nazis had a love-hate relationship with organized religion that had more to do with power politics than any real aversion to it.
It's super weird that @Parth is acting as if fascism and religion are somehow mutually exclusive. Historically they're far more connected than not.
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This is not an argument that makes sense. Referring to Imperium as fascist does not imply ignoring any religious themes — they are, after all, quite obvious indeed. If anything, it's insistence on not referring to Imperium as fascist that enables ignoring similarly obvious fascist undertones.
The peculiarity of nazism vs general fascism is that nazism rejected established religion and at least the high level nazis had their own brand of mysticism or pseudopaganism.
Bog standard fascism made it a point to cooperate or coopt the local religion(s). It alluded to a glorious past that must be emulated with religion being part and parcel of the national identity or rather the idealized identity the local fascism espoused,.
Bog standard fascism made it a point to cooperate or coopt the local religion(s). It alluded to a glorious past that must be emulated with religion being part and parcel of the national identity or rather the idealized identity the local fascism espoused,.