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Warhammer 40k General thread

stratigo said:
This, notably is not my definition.

I think people who would dislike fem marines are wrong, but I don't think non chuds would quit the hobby over female space marines, because, frankly, it's not that important. The only people who would actually lose their shit and quit the hobby are, in fact, the chuds. No one else will.

There's a whole lot about the hobby I am not a fan of (largely business related) that hasn't driven me to burn my armies in a trashcan. People can get over things they don't like for the game, community, or the rest of the lore. It's only people so poisoned by the culture war that the very thought of any progress in something they partake in would lead them to excessively (and probably loudly) doing away with thousands of dollars of models.
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It's not really important whether they'd get rid of their old models, but rather if they'd buy the new ones or even leave the hobby altogether.

stratigo said:
The reason marines are an all boys club is that, despite the punk origins of 40k, it was made by all male nerds in the 80s and they thought girls had cooties. They didn't think women had a place in wargaming, the prevailing and common sentiment of male nerds in the 80s and 90s.
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God I hate this fucking argument. Poison the well with enough arsenic to depopulate China and then act surprised when people are hostile.

No, it's because we had femarine models in the past, and nobody bought them because they were ugly as sin.

And again, I find it incredibly sexist and demeaning to hand over what would in all due essentiality be mens' table scraps.

stratigo said:
But it absolutely isn't a statement on fascism that marines are all male. It wasn't when marines were invented, and it definitely isn't today where GW spends most of its time carefully managing marines for mass appeal and only rarely acknowledging the dark themes behind them, either by individual authors, or when circumstances force their hand.
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... what? I have never known this setting or its books to shy away from the fact that 40k is a dark and brutal nightmare that nobody wants. The term 'grimdark' comes from the opening paragraph to the setting. One of the first things Gulliman does when he comes back is give a soliloquy about how much the Imperium sucks. He has a whole speech to Mortarion about how the galaxy resembles "the Catheric hell".

40k does not shy away from how dark, horrific, and brutal its setting is outside of its marketing (which, ya know, fair, you don't want to lead in with the flaying shacks). If anything, it goes too deep on occasion (Daemonculabra)
 
Parth said:
@DeliriumDid you noticed my questions? because I really am struggling to understand what your point is.
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1. I meant what I wrote: that when a bigot attempts to hide behind the defense of misanthropy they are lying. Regardless of whether they do hate most people there's still an extra layer of hatred for the true target of their ire.
2. No, the Imperium can and should have LGBTQ characters.
 
I'm fine with the Imperium having LGBTQ, POC, and other minority characters because:

a) I want to see myself in my favorite setting, even if said self is the worst of Mankind. Like is anyone gonna argue that the Carachadons aren't basically Space Maori, who happened to have a skin conditition and are evil even by the standards of Astartes? Like am I supposed to be upset that Tallarns are just 1990s Arabs with Tanks? Fuck no, that shit is awesome.
b) the more Chuds screech about black Space Marines, the likelier they are to leave the fandom.

There's an argument to be made about "well you got all this diversity with bisexual, non-binary, Mexican Muslims but they're all Judge Dredd Cops, not very liberal of you." Yes, but like



I come to 40k to indulge in dark fantasies, of evil done upon evil. I'm not here for the good guys to win. I'm here to watch evil space nazis fight evil space demon nazis. So what if Inquisitor Whatsherface has a girlfriend or the Mechanics Techpriest uses they/them pronouns. In the grimdarkness of the 41st millenium, everyone is terrible.

If I wanted Good vs Evil, I'd go to literally any other setting. I want Space Mamluks fighting Demon Space Mamluks, why do you think I'm here.
 
Delirium said:
1. I meant what I wrote: that when a bigot attempts to hide behind the defense of misanthropy they are lying. Regardless of whether they do hate most people there's still an extra layer of hatred for the true target of their ire.
2. No, the Imperium can and should have LGBTQ characters.
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Yes I'm sure you do that's the reason why I'm asking you to explain what you're talking about.

Ok, so you're saying that bigots hide the true target of their hatred behind other targets. Yes, I fully agree.

So are you saying that there should be female space marines or that there shouldn't be female space marines, because adding them would smooth the edges of the imperium so to speak?
 
If you want female marines, just go buy an army, assemble them, and paint them as wanted.

And presto, you have female space marines.

HalfTangible said:
You do not want to discourage anyone from participating in a hobby as niche as miniature wargaming/painting, least of all those who obsess over your best-selling miniatures the most.



Seems to me the problem is the same one it's been for years at this point: GW is too damned focused on Space Marines.

Flash Gitz did a joke once about how GW wanted to do "Space Marine Space Marines" (a space marine inside of a space marine) And then we got the Centurion suits.

I get it, SM are easy to paint and are your best sellers, but come on GW.



All or mostly male: Space Marines, CSM (unless you count Heretics), Orks
All or mostly female: Sisters of Battle
Both in a mix: Aeldari, Imperial Guard, Custodes (Sisters of Silence), Tau, Genestealer Cults (maybe? I haven't taken a close look at their models)
Indeterminate/unclear: Tyranids, Mechanicus, Necrons, Demons, Knights

When you actually look at the model ranges in terms of faction there's more 'both' and 'indeterminate' than 'all or mostly male'. The problem isn't the lack of female models or the abundance of boys club factions, the problem is space marines make up the vast majority of the models on sale.

Yeah, there's like 11 different factions of Space Marines but for the most part they use the same models, so it's closer to two or three factions.
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No offense, but that's a terrible list. Its more like...

All Male: Space Marines of the various flavors, some Imperial Guard regiments.

All Female: Sisters of Battle, Sisters of Silence

Mixed Sex: Inquisition, Imperial Knights, Majority of the Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy, Dark Elder, Elder, Tau, Chaos (Yes, even the Chaos Marines), Genestealer Cults, Adeptus Mechanicus, Custodes

Asexual/Other: Tyranids, Orks, Necrons
 
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Old Guard said:
No offense, but that's a terrible list. Its more like...

All Male: Space Marines of the various flavors, some Imperial Guard regiments.

All Female: Sisters of Battle, Sisters of Silence

Mixed Sex: Inquisition, Imperial Knights, Majority of the Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy, Dark Elder, Elder, Tau, Chaos (Yes, even the Chaos Marines), Genestealer Cults, Adeptus Mechanicus, Custodes

Asexual/Other: Tyranids, Orks, Necrons
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(dalek voice) hOw DAre YoU! I taKE ALL of the offENSE! sOoon YOUr LoCAtion Will Be the TArgEt of OBIBITAL BOMBARDMENT!!!

Yeah, I know the list is bad, but it's not exactly a scientific study. For the most part I got that list by looking through the faction lists on GW's website, because the argument was about model ranges; hence why the Custodes and SoS are put together, the Navy isn't mentioned, and factions like the Knights are Indeterminate; there's nothing stopping you from saying 'okay this one is piloted by a girl, this one a boy, etc'.

Tyranids are a weird one because eusocial insect armies are usually composed of infertile females yet the most prominent characters I could think of were referred to as 'he' (the Swarmlord and Old One-Eye)
 
HalfTangible said:
Now you have the exact opposite problem.

"Isn't it great that women get ground down into mushy giblets during the recruitment process too?"



Necron Pariahs were essentially human blanks taken by the necrons and turned into new anti-psyker soldiers for their force. Occasionally Pariahs maintained enough of their former selves to speak with their enemies, giving them a bit of character (see Dawn of War Dark Crusade). It's also implied that the existence of blanks in the human species was due to genetic manipulation by the Necrons millennia ago for this exact purpose.

Necrons now have characters with names and personalities, so they don't need someone speakign for them. They have a construction material called Blackstone that suppresses the warp, so they don't need an anti-psyker weapon. And the ability to bring in other species doesn't really fit with their aesthetic as an ancient race of robot skeletons returning to reclaim their old empire from lesser beings. Their combat niche is now filled by Lychguard, iirc (wasn't much of a tabletop player when they were still around)

It's not a decision I agree with. In lore, they were an experimental weapon that didn't work as well as the necrons wanted and were abandoned. Which is kind of disappointing imo, I like pariahs.
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I don't quite understand how the first thing would be a problem for the setting but I do get the whole ''boys club because the imperium has a toxic masculinity problem'' angle, which I wish GW use because with SOB/SOS, female gaurdsmen and inquisitors... It's obviously a dumb cultureal thing in universe and I think making the imperium look dumb is fine because fascism is fundamentally irrrational, I belive even in M41.

I also didn't know Blackstone was such a new thing or super portable, I knew necrons having almost no character before the last two editions was
a thing though.

I would have figured paraiahs or something like them could have been modified into infiltration units(since I don't think crons have any) but then you've just got necron themed culexus + callidus + genestealer vibes...not a bad idea in universe but I could see G.W not liking it.

I don't see anything wrong with necrons being slavers more than destroyers in universe but *shrug* thats just taste at this point I think?

Undead-Spaceman said:
I can't give Kill Team enough props for giving us slices of 40k we don't usually see. In this case it's nice to finally get idea of what Void Armsmen look like and I'll never complain about Tau Auxilary species getting some limelight.
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Yeah I was about to say that, but I'll add that the new kroot hound sculpt if that is what it is and not a new unit type feels more naturalistic than the old one from my memory anyway which is good for a sub faction who's all about gene-modding through eating stuff. I love the harpoon gun/bowgun thing they've got going too, really fits the whole ''space faring but deliberately primitivist'' vibes the factions had.

They strike me as the type that are fine with advanced materials engineering so long as it's being used for analog technology.
What I'd really like to see would be some Nicassar, If I had money I'd love to toss it at psychic floof bears, heck even some book characters would be nice to see.

HalfTangible said:
(dalek voice) hOw DAre YoU! I taKE ALL of the offENSE! sOoon YOUr LoCAtion Will Be the TArgEt of OBIBITAL BOMBARDMENT!!!

Tyranids are a weird one because eusocial insect armies are usually composed of infertile females yet the most prominent characters I could think of were referred to as 'he' (the Swarmlord and Old One-Eye)
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To be fair I think tyranids are a deliberately character light faction, because aside from genestealers it's hard to give any of them any character.
Norn Queens and Harridans aren't prominent? Ignore this bit I was being dumb.

The new parasite of mortex or whatever it's called feels very much like it's meant to be female though if that counts?
 
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Kuja said:
*stands outside Games Workshop HQ holding a sign saying 'Justice for Doom of Malan'tai'*
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I don't actually know much about that incident, didn't like a Zoanthrope get posessed by a deamon and the fused critter eat it's way into the eldar soul database thingy and nom them up?

I don't remember it having a lot of personality although I guess it was indeed unique.
Did it have a model that got removed because if so that would suck.

I got the impression that a lot of people hated it for simultaneously making making the tyranids look weak by only succeeding through warp shenangians and the Eldar look weak through falling to a single organism?

I also don't know if it was female or not or how that would factor in?


On a side note I agree with people that letting the daemonculaba fall out of the setting is fine but thats mostly because I find it too stupid rather than too dark. That is I agree it's grimderp with emphasis on the later portion of that.

These writers mean to tell me that the very intelligent smiths of the Iron Warriors, the same people who infected tyranids with like nanomachines to fuck things up(unless my memory fails me), the same people who are in love with those big chaos buff bois who grow guns from their flesh...the guys who steal and use necrodermis...them, that they made something that inefficent?

Like they could have cut up orgyns for wombs or injected people with some stolen or fabius gifted doohickey to grow their skins out like a cancer, but instead they focus on this really really cost intensive force feeding and surgical grafting stuff? It feels *dumb* for them.

Like chaos factions have wanted a way of producing marines independant of always having to steal loyalist genneseed and to produce marines faster, they have wanted this for thousands of years and thats the best they could come up with? Really?

No re-programing tyranids to pop out humans? No curses that turn large groups into CSM? Not like a flesh dreadnaught/knight that steals souls and flesh before birthing them out? Four gods, thousands of years and Emps only knows how many organizations later and the best they can do is like a very very innefficent poor cattle farm that mostly gets destroyed by one ultramarine, three guardsmen *and their own creations*.

Call me significantly unimpressed.
 
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16 characters said:
I don't actually know much about that incident, didn't like a Zoanthrope get posessed by a deamon and the fused critter eat it's way into the eldar soul database thingy and nom them up?
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No demon involved, just a baby zoanthrope that went ham on eating a craftworld's infinity circuit while the defenders were in panic mode hunting the other nids aboard, then ate the remaining living eldar to leave Malan'tai a ghost ship.

It was removed from the codex during the Great Removening, when GW threw a shitfit following the Chapterhouse lawsuit and cut out anything that didn't have an official model.

It should come back because it's awesome.
It should also come back because they could then have it fight a grudge match against Maugen Ra, the phoenix lord that singlehandedly wiped a Tyranid swarm, which would be extra awesome.
 
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HalfTangible said:
(dalek voice) hOw DAre YoU! I taKE ALL of the offENSE! sOoon YOUr LoCAtion Will Be the TArgEt of OBIBITAL BOMBARDMENT!!!

Yeah, I know the list is bad, but it's not exactly a scientific study. For the most part I got that list by looking through the faction lists on GW's website, because the argument was about model ranges; hence why the Custodes and SoS are put together, the Navy isn't mentioned, and factions like the Knights are Indeterminate; there's nothing stopping you from saying 'okay this one is piloted by a girl, this one a boy, etc'.

Tyranids are a weird one because eusocial insect armies are usually composed of infertile females yet the most prominent characters I could think of were referred to as 'he' (the Swarmlord and Old One-Eye)
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Haha, the list wasn't that bad,

The Custodes and SoS are two separate factions on the tabletop by keywords I believe, unless that has changed in 9th edition.

The Navy characters for the TT are all officially male, but so are all official Imperial Guard models (minus like 2). As to Imperial Knights, other than the Hector Rex model the knight pilots can be whatever sex. There is only a total of like 2 official knight pilot models anyway.

For the Nids, remember its a hivemind, there aren't really any individuals, just many parts of one vast intellect, with a few semi autonomous limbs.

I think a lot of people forget that despite the modern heavy commercialization of 40k, it started as a hobby game. Don't rely on GW to make every possible model you could want. People should experiment, kitbash, use green stuff, and basically actually participate in the other 50% of the hobby... or people can be whiny goons crying for daddy corporate to spoon feed them like good little consumers.

GW has spent the last 20+ years trying to stomp the actual creative side of the hobby to death. They don't want people making their own models, or terrain like the early days of the game. They just want you to pay outrageously inflated prices for their plastic army men.

My suggestion to those who want certain kinds of currently unavailable or non existent models is to kitbash them yourself, or buy recast.
 
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Tithed_Verse said:
Frankly, if adding female space marines causes 99% of the community to leave and the WH40k community to collapse, the community never should have existed in the first place.
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Frankly, if you want female space marines so badly, you're going to have to come up with a very good justification for it.

Because honestly, the only justification I've seen anyone put forward is that it would "piss off chuds."

Which is at the end of the day the worst reason anyone can think of.
 
My justification is very good. Because I want to.

It's frankly the best justification for something inconsequential like 'having minority and female representation within your army in a game that people play for fun'

My fun would be improved having female space marines. If your fun is not improved by minority representation, that's fine. If you claim your fun is reduced by it, I'm going to have some issues because having your fun reduced by minority representation is a weird stance.
 
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I mean, it's trivially easy to come up with an in-universe/lore justification for female space marines - you just have female space marines now, and justify it with something like "Blah blah blah Great Crusade blah blah blah All the Emperor's subjects may now Die For The Glory Of The Empire blah blah blah" or whatever. You can even loop it back to the fascist nature of the Empire by splicing in some Volkssturm or Battalion of Death elements - the Empire is so decayed, corrupt, generally Bad Times that now everyone can get gloriously transformed into an unthinking instrument of death.

As has been said, 40k is all make believe, so all you need to do is just come up with a justification and go with it. IMO whether or not the turbonerd fans accept it is a dead end, because my guess is that that certain percentage of fans would still reject female Space Marines no matter what justification you used. Even a Platonic Ideal, 100% bulletproof lore honoring one would still probably be rejected because ew girls.

Now, whether or not female space marines make thematic sense in the world of 40k is a different question that I'm not sure I'm equipped to answer, but from a pure world building perspective there's literally nothing stopping female space marines beyond GW's disinclination.
 
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Tithed_Verse said:
My justification is very good. Because I want to.
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That's a terrible justification. It is, in fact, the *worst* justification possible because you're freely admitting you have none. No shit 'you want to', or we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

Tithed_Verse said:
It's frankly the best justification for something inconsequential like 'having minority and female representation within your army in a game that people play for fun'

My fun would be improved having female space marines. If your fun is not improved by minority representation, that's fine. If you claim your fun is reduced by it, I'm going to have some issues because having your fun reduced by minority representation is a weird stance.
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If it were "inconsequential" you would not be asking for it.

My fun is reduced by you changing what's been established for 40+ years on a whim and then poisoning the well against any counter-argument for why it's a bad move. If you can't stand the idea that Space Marines are all male then why are you here at all?

I also want male sisters of battle, for the record.
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Why would they ever do this? The entire point of the Sisters is that they're all female.
 
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Diversity's doesn't really need a reason and shouldn't need to be justified.

But, frankly, representation makes things more enjoyable for people and the people that it makes things less enjoyable for adjust quickly to the increased inclusion, whereas excluded people constantly feel negative pressure from the exclusion.

If GM made female space marines tomorrow, you'd be upset. Five years later, you'd still be playing 40k, and you would no longer feel like it was controversial. It would just be established canon at that point.

If GW doesn't make female space marines for five years, I'll still be upset.

From a strictly utilitarian perspective including female space marines makes fewer upset people over a longer period of time than not including them.

Tradition is the worst reason for exclusion. Traditionally Harvard was all male and all white, for example.
 
Tithed_Verse said:
My justification is very good. Because I want to.

It's frankly the best justification for something inconsequential like 'having minority and female representation within your army in a game that people play for fun'

My fun would be improved having female space marines. If your fun is not improved by minority representation, that's fine. If you claim your fun is reduced by it, I'm going to have some issues because having your fun reduced by minority representation is a weird stance.
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Literally the only thing that females can't do in the imperium is become a space marine.

There are female inquisitors, high lords, commissars, military commanders, high ranking mechanicus personnel. and so on.

Hell, the sisters of battle do the jobs of space marines with zero genetic enhancements.

Are you honestly telling me that none of that is enough minority representation? that unless you have female space marines you can't have fun?
 
Parth said:
Literally the only thing that females can't do in the imperium is become a space marine.

There are female inquisitors, high lords, commissars, military commanders, high ranking mechanicus personnel. and so on.

Hell, the sisters of battle do the jobs of space marines with zero genetic enhancements.

Are you honestly telling me that none of that is enough minority representation? that unless you have female space marines you can't have fun?
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Again, the Imperium can do anything, because the Imperium isn't real and exists only as a creation of the GW creative team.

If GW decided that there's now women/trans/nb Space Marines, then ipso facto the Imperium can create women/trans/nb/whatever Space Marines. There's nothing stopping GW from doing so beyond their own disinterest. The game's lore is not fixed or somehow separate from GW - they wrote the lore, they can rewrite it whenever they want.

Like I said, there's maybe a discussion about whether the Imperium being an equal opportunity employer makes thematic sense, given that the Imperium is designed to be the shittiest, most reactionary government imaginable, but from a purely practical standpoint there's literally nothing stopping them.
 
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