Warhammer 40k General thread

[Tithed_Verse]

Can you prove that there's a demand for female space marines?

Click to shrink...

I think that the frequency of this whole argument about female space marines and the fact that it often has different participants, I for one rarely participate.

You yourself asked 'what do female space marines add that the sisters of battle don't?'

And then you answered it. Like it or not, they're the primary faction and the face of the franchise, they should include more women.

Also, frankly, while the orcs are agender, female bodied orcs would be nice to have too, but i'm not sure there's a demand. Orc players are kinda a force unto themselves.

 

[Landb]

I mean the biggest hurdle to more female fans are how shitty so many male fans are. Female space marines would decrease the number of those shitty fans

Click to shrink...

I suspect the biggest hurdle is one of overall demographic preferences. 40k is full of stuff that, broadly, women demonstrate lower preference for than men. I'm talking basic conceptual stuff like 'plastic soldiers with giant guns and huge muscles shoot at aliens and other soldiers in a sci-fi setting wargame with convoluted rules'. Whether the reason is socialization or any number of other things, I'd be willing to bet a substantial sum that—even with a perfectly-behaved fanbase—the percentage of women who might be interested in 40k is notably smaller than the percentage of men (not insignificant, just much smaller). Within that population of women who might be interested, however, I don't doubt you're correct. On the tabletop-playing end especially, there are some very off-putting people (hardly unique to 40k, you see it in pretty much every nerd tabletop thing aside from maybe board games).

What I absolutely do doubt is the idea that somehow the shittiest guys would leave or stop because the company introduces a lore change that makes them mad. That has not been what I have observed in comparable situations. If anything, the opposite has occurred.

I'm hardly eager to see a change that I firmly believe will cause harm to things I care about, on the off chance that it will somehow cause people who dislike the change for different reasons to leave rather than become louder and more unpleasant.

 

[stratigo]

I suspect the biggest hurdle is one of overall demographic preferences. 40k is full of stuff that, broadly, women demonstrate lower preference for than men. I'm talking basic conceptual stuff like 'plastic soldiers with giant guns and huge muscles shoot at aliens and other soldiers in a sci-fi setting wargame with convoluted rules'. Whether the reason is socialization or any number of other things, I'd be willing to bet a substantial sum that—even with a perfectly-behaved fanbase—the percentage of women who might be interested in 40k is notably smaller than the percentage of men (not insignificant, just much smaller). Within that population of women who might be interested, however, I don't doubt you're correct. On the tabletop-playing end especially, there are some very off-putting people (hardly unique to 40k, you see it in pretty much every nerd tabletop thing aside from maybe board games).

What I absolutely do doubt is the idea that somehow the shittiest guys would leave or stop because the company introduces a lore change that makes them mad. That has not been what I have observed in comparable situations. If anything, the opposite has occurred.

I'm hardly eager to see a change that I firmly believe will cause harm to things I care about, on the off chance that it will somehow cause people who dislike the change for different reasons to leave rather than become louder and more unpleasant.

Click to shrink...

This is the same justifications that old dnd grognards said is why women didn't want to play DnD.

Ladies LOVE DnD and their share of the hobby has only continued to grow.

Women play less Warhammer because they are told they shouldn't want to play warhammer. If you stop telling them their demographic interests are something else, they will gleefully play warhammer.

This is, like, the truth of every fricken thing women try to do that was once male dominated "Oh, well, the natural inclination is that women simply don't want to". Ain't nothing natural about it, it's their fathers, brothers, mothers, friends, televisions all telling them what they should and should not be interested in.

 

[Landb]

This is the same justifications that old dnd grognards said is why women didn't want to play DnD.

Ladies LOVE DnD and their share of the hobby has only continued to grow.

Women play less Warhammer because they are told they shouldn't want to play warhammer. If you stop telling them their demographic interests are something else, they will gleefully play warhammer.

This is, like, the truth of every fricken thing women try to do that was once male dominated "Oh, well, the natural inclination is that women simply don't want to". Ain't nothing natural about it, it's their fathers, brothers, mothers, friends, televisions all telling them what they should and should not be interested in.

Click to shrink...

I would appreciate very much if you didn't mischaracterize the hell out of what I was saying into a convenient strawman.

It should be telling that of all possible reasons for the broad demographic preference, the only one I mentioned by name was socialization. I absolutely did not say anything about "natural inclinations". Consider what that suggests about what I consider the plausible explanation. Thanks ever so much for telling me stuff I'm already aware of.

The cause is essentially irrelevant to my point that the inclination exists and is a much greater hurdle to gaining a large female customer base than some smelly guys being pricks at the local game store. And while those guys may be a factor contributing to that inclination's development, their influence is next to nothing compared to much more omnipresent social conditioning from earliest childhood, from people who aren't even 'bad' people. If you think these asshole fans are the biggest contributing factor, I strongly disagree

The whole point of "any number of things" was to make it clear that my point stands mostly independent of cause, so even somebody who attributes the inclination to some other factor (like "nature") can acknowledge it rather than getting into a debate about something that is essentially orthogonal to my post.

 

[Parth]

Er, that is not the proof you think it is, because now that sisters of battle have plastic models and support, they're one of if not the best selling non-marine faction.

Click to shrink...

You don't happen to have a source for that do you? I've been trying to find those particular stats for some time.

Ok, so I have to ask. Since the sisters have plastic models and support, and they're selling well, what's the point in adding female space marines?

Because from my point of view I don't see a reason why.

The sisters of battle wear power armor and use space marine weapons and equipment, they also use astartes vehicles, and they even have their own form of terminator armor.

The sisters of battle are space marines save for genetic enhancements. I don't see that as being a good enough reason to add female space marines.

Especially not when the sisters fulfill that role.

 

[IfIhadaHammer]

You don't happen to have a source for that do you? I've been trying to find those particular stats for some time.

Ok, so I have to ask. Since the sisters have plastic models and support, and they're selling well, what's the point in adding female space marines?

Because from my point of view I don't see a reason why.

The sisters of battle wear power armor and use space marine weapons and equipment, they also use astartes vehicles, and they even have their own form of terminator armor.

The sisters of battle are space marines save for genetic enhancements. I don't see that as being a good enough reason to add female space marines.

Especially not when the sisters fulfill that role.

Click to shrink...

loads of people have given you answers, and you've chosen to just ignore those responses, and yet you keep asking this question anyway like you're somehow engaging in this discussion in good faith lawl.

 

[13th Bee]

I am continually disappointed by the Imperial Navy being all Lash, no Rum or Sodomy in its parody of the Royal Navy.

 

[Parth]

loads of people have given you answers, and you've chosen to just ignore those responses, and yet you keep asking this question anyway like you're somehow engaging in this discussion in good faith lawl.

Click to shrink...

Yes, I'm well aware of that, I haven't been ignoring anything.

I've seen people state that the only reason why they want female space marines is that "they want them." I've also seen people state that they wanted them in order to drive away a certain portion of the player base.

I've also seen someone state that there is a high demand for female space marines, which is why we're here.

Now, do you have a source for the sisters of battle sales? Three of you stated that they were high in sales after getting plastic and support you were the first person to say it, so I am asking you for a source.

Thank you.

Don't put words in my mouth. I said I would have signifigantly more fun with female space marines, and I stand by that statement. I did not say no fun without them.

But more fun is better than less fun.

Click to shrink...

Those were your words not mine, you said that you'd have more fun with female space marines.
You also said that if GW didn't make female space marines for five years you'd still be upset.

You're very much implying that you're not having fun without female space marines.

Also, I have to ask. What made you get back into 40K I thought you quit?

 

[Alex]

Can everyone please try to calm down about this? I know things are really heated right now, and part of that is because IRL things are fucking terrible for a lot of people, woman and trans people especially and only looking to get worse in the immediate future. Every other day it seems like there is another court ruling striping people of their sacred rights or some red state governor approves some McCarthyism esq inquisition or you find out your favorite celebrity has taken the TERF koolaid and is now ranting about trans bodies in sports on twitter. It fucking sucks I know.

But this is not that. Its a dumb hobby about a dumb excuse setting where army men fight Egyptian robots fight elf pirates fight psychic vampire warriors fight hordes of insect lobsters from beyond the stars. And I say that as someone who on Saturday trekked two hours hours there and two hours back to play a tournament of said silly space men (I went 1/2 by the way, I am not very good).

I am not trying to belittle anyone who is passionate about this but I think everyone could try to cool off and have a bit of perspective. Please do not let consumption be your only politics. GW not having female marines is not comparable to anything else happening right now and if they did suddenly release female marines it would not be comparable to anything else happening right now either.

 

[Zavvnao]

The sister of battle performing poorly in sales is a good indication of how female space marines would perform.

Click to shrink...

I myself actually want to get a sisters of battle army. I never played, but I enjoyed them in Soulstorm, and want flamer lady armies.

 

[Tithed_Verse]

Also, I have to ask. What made you get back into 40K I thought you quit?

Click to shrink...

It's the only game that the closest game shop is running on Thursday when I am free.

 

[Hykal94]

Is 40k really the wargame equivalent of DnD 5E? I know that GW is a big fish in a small pond, but I thought wargames are a bit more competitive vs the consuming mass that is WOTC.

 

[Tithed_Verse]

They play that star wars fleet one on Wednesday, when I work, and they play battle-tech, but that schedule is it's alternating with Warhammer fantasy on Tuesdays. I think there's a few more they play, but they're on the miscelanious days and the figures don't activate my magpie brain.

I saw them running kingdom death monsters once.

And I know I saw a game of Ogre.

But mostly they play something with confederate and union soldiers and i'm not very interested.

They also have pokemon and yughio but I honestly don't understand commander and that's the only magic format they run.

I mostly play necrons. They're very strategically forgiving.

 

[16 characters]

I am continually disappointed by the Imperial Navy being all Lash, no Rum or Sodomy in its parody of the Royal Navy.

Click to shrink...

I do believe voidsmen have to drink some of the ships oil to inaugurate their positions, but that doesn't seem to get them drunk so eh yeah I agree. Also they should be getting excited for space weevils adding more proteins to their ration bars!

Anyway yikes, I leave for a little bit and half the place looks like it burned down. It wasn't great before but I recall distinctly fewer insults :-(

Every 40k topic eventually becomes a slapfight about female space marines, it is known.

Click to shrink...

Or it could have become a slapfight over *is the imperium fascist* we've had that one too. Maybe the next one could be Eldar/GW Bussiness decision related if we get lucky?

Why can't we try and figure out if Gyrinxes would make better pets than cyber mastiffs or like what the best 40k related OST is or something?

Wait have things actually calmed down? Sorry for overreacting if they have.

 

[Mutton]

Is 40k really the wargame equivalent of DnD 5E? I know that GW is a big fish in a small pond, but I thought wargames are a bit more competitive vs the consuming mass that is WOTC.

Click to shrink...

Absolutely; you'll often have different secondary games based on what you have around, but 40k is incredibly dominant in the Big Wargame space to the point where the runner up in minis doesn't even have a game associated with it.

Privateer Press made a damn solid run at the crown back in the early-mid '10s to the point that GW completely changed their whole approach to the business in order to try and stay on top, but then self-immolated in an incredible fashion and are basically gone. Atomic Mass is pulling up a respectable third place now between Star Wars Legion (X-Wing also threw itself upon the pyre) and Marvel Crisis Protocol, then there's the Song of Ice and Fire mini game alongside Infinity and Battletech hanging around. But 40k, and to a lesser extend AoS/Kill Team/30k crush the competition and if you want to be able to regularly have games without setting them up ahead of time that's your pick.

 

[Hykal94]

Voidsmen are a very strange of choice for troops. The only time I can recall where they were a major force, in my 40 plus novels of worth of reading material, is the middle of the first Eisenhorn book where a big name Inquisitor commmanded them to assault an enemy Chaos cult estate.

Privateer Press made a damn solid run at the crown back in the early-mid '10s to the point that GW completely changed their whole approach to the business in order to try and stay on top, but then self-immolated in an incredible fashion and are basically gone. Atomic Mass is pulling up a respectable third place now between Star Wars Legion (X-Wing also threw itself upon the pyre) and Marvel Crisis Protocol, then there's the Song of Ice and Fire mini game alongside Infinity and Battletech hanging around. But 40k, and to a lesser extend AoS/Kill Team/30k crush the competition and if you want to be able to regularly have games without setting them up ahead of time that's your pick.

Click to shrink...

Doesn't GW also make LoTR minis? Anyway I'm surprised that not even mighty Star Wars can put a dent in 40k's space cathedral size fish.

 

[Mutton]

Voidsmen are a very strange of choice for troops. The only time I can recall where they were a major force, in my 40 plus novels of worth of reading material, is the middle of the first Eisenhorn book where a big name Inquisitor commmanded them to assault an enemy Chaos cult estate.



Doesn't GW also make LoTR minis? Anyway I'm surprised that not even might Star Wars can put a dent in 40k's space cathedral size fish.

Click to shrink...

They do, it's generally considered one of GW's best systems alongside new Kill Team.

X-Wing was actually outselling GW back in 2016 and kicking the hell out of them if you include Armada at #3. It however imploded in the edition change due to both internal ownership drama and getting real greedy with their "buy these new minis to get cards to use with your old minis" model that folks just got sick of. They're not even on the top 5 anymore (although Star Wars Legion is #5). The game was huge and now it's just kind of gone, although the soft edition change might fix that

 

[Kuja]

Doesn't GW also make LoTR minis? Anyway I'm surprised that not even might Star Wars can put a dent in 40k's space cathedral size fish.

Click to shrink...

Most tabletop gaming companies have a long, proud history of fucking up; GW's big advantage is that they've been in the game so long and were able to spread so widely that they've managed to survive their fuckups by dint of sheer inertia. (A lesser company would have been torn apart by the wolves if they'd pulled Storm of Chaos.) Mutton already mentioned, but Privateer Press was in a great position to be gunning for GW a decade ago, but then they not only fucked up Warmahordes third edition, they then doubled and tripled down on the stuff that their fans hated and now the game is a shell of its former potential, while GW had something of a wakeup call and got their act together.

Meanwhile Battletech following its success in the 90s narrowly avoided being shot and stuffed under a porch. It finally seems to be having a comeback following some of the backlash from 40k's 9th. Then there's X-Wing Armada-

X-Wing was actually outselling GW back in 2016 and kicking the hell out of them if you include Armada at #3. It however imploded in the edition change due to both internal ownership drama and getting real greedy with their "buy these new minis to get cards to use with your old minis" model that folks just got sick of. They're not even on the top 5 anymore (although Star Wars Legion is #5). The game was huge and now it's just kind of gone, although the soft edition change might fix that

Click to shrink...

-god damn it Mutton. *shakes fist*

Anyway, if a competing business could manage to build a playerbase and brand without fucking up, they could present a real threat, but as it is GW is the proverbial 800-pound gorilla sitting atop the heap and gently shoving away anyone trying to climb up, whereupon they all cartwheel down to the bottom and explode Loony tunes style.

 

[13th Bee]

Historical war games are also there (GW was even making some for a long time), but most of them don't try to sell miniatures as a business model.

 

[Delirium]

Historical war games are also there (GW was even making some for a long time), but most of them don't try to sell miniatures as a business model.

Click to shrink...

This is actually why GW exists in the way it does. GW started out as a model producer for other games, their big innovation was to realise that they could sell both the models and the games to go with them. The first edition of Warhammer (1983) is extremely details light when it comes to the 'world' of Warhammer because it was basically built to be played in your standard kitchen sink fantasy world - the kind of thing that GW was already selling models for. Proto-Warhammer (Reaper, 1978) had a much smaller required model count for entry, and in fact one of the original arguments for Warhammer from GW was that players would need something to use their growing number of models for (well also GW wanted to encourage them to buy more, hence bigger battles with tons of goblins). I.e. the point was that GW had been selling players models of goblins and wizards and kniights for years, and now here was something to do with all of them at once in a quick-fire game rather than planning out a huge D&D campaign.

By '87 they'd gotten to Third Edition, ironed out the kinks and the known world had been developed into a fully-fledged setting rather than bits and pieces of whatever the players had lying around from other games. Also, they published the first edition of some other game set in a grim dark future or something, nobody cool played it, doubt it was very popular. Think it was called fraudlent purveyor. By Fourth edition in '92 you had prescribed army lists and now you REALLY had to only use GW models to play the game.

 

[Old Guard]

Consumers wanting something is the only rational basis for a business decision. GW would have to weigh how much some consumers want it verse how much some others don't.



GW's business model isn't doomed.

Also, I doubt you have a pulse on the majority of the GW fanbase.

I mean the biggest hurdle to more female fans are how shitty so many male fans are. Female space marines would decrease the number of those shitty fans and lower the barrier to entry for women into the hobby.

Click to shrink...

3D Printing and PDF Books + 3rd Party apps says otherwise. GWs current business model won't last another 10 years. They will need to change significantly to remain profitable.

While your hearsay is nice and all, you didn't actually address any of the common counterpoints, just made a blanket statement on how shitty 40k fans are. Nor did you provide any kind of evidence that creating female space marines would pull in significant amounts female players (probably because all evidence says otherwise).

 

[Mutton]

3D Printing and PDF Books + 3rd Party apps says otherwise. GWs current business model won't last another 10 years. They will need to change significantly to remain profitable.

Click to shrink...

I'll take things that have been said for going on twenty years now for $500.

3D printing is great; I have a ton of parts from it, either via 3rd party retailers or local mates with printers, but it's still a hobby into itself. Meanwhile GW puts out really solid plastics that assemble easily and don't require slaving over a hot buildplate.

 

[Old Guard]

I'll take things that have been said for going on twenty years now for $500.

3D printing is great; I have a ton of parts from it, either via 3rd party retailers or local mates with printers, but it's still a hobby into itself. Meanwhile GW puts out really solid plastics that assemble easily and don't require slaving over a hot buildplate.

Click to shrink...

Well time will tell. I think your failing to recognize how easy 3d printing has become and how much cheaper and easier it's going to be very shortly. A lot has changed in the last 20 years.

I mean your ignoring that GW has been 3d printing it's own models for nearly a decade. (while still charging you injection mold prices of course)

Its only a matter of time before the tech matures enough that most people are printing their own armies for dimes. If GW is still relying on physical sales for profit when that hits full force, then they go the way of blockbuster.

Yes, Games Workshop 3D Prints All Their Warhammer Minis

Someone on Reddit recently accused Games Workshop of 3d printing the models on display at Warhammer World, and as it turns out they actually do... 3D

spikeybits.com

 

[stratigo]

Yes, I'm well aware of that, I haven't been ignoring anything.

I've seen people state that the only reason why they want female space marines is that "they want them." I've also seen people state that they wanted them in order to drive away a certain portion of the player base.

I've also seen someone state that there is a high demand for female space marines, which is why we're here.

Now, do you have a source for the sisters of battle sales? Three of you stated that they were high in sales after getting plastic and support you were the first person to say it, so I am asking you for a source.

Thank you.


Those were your words not mine, you said that you'd have more fun with female space marines.
You also said that if GW didn't make female space marines for five years you'd still be upset.

You're very much implying that you're not having fun without female space marines.

Also, I have to ask. What made you get back into 40K I thought you quit?

Click to shrink...

I talked to robin cruddace about it

Is 40k really the wargame equivalent of DnD 5E? I know that GW is a big fish in a small pond, but I thought wargames are a bit more competitive vs the consuming mass that is WOTC.

Click to shrink...

If there's a hobby group, they play 40k. They might play other things too, but they also play 40k

3D Printing and PDF Books + 3rd Party apps says otherwise. GWs current business model won't last another 10 years. They will need to change significantly to remain profitable.

While your hearsay is nice and all, you didn't actually address any of the common counterpoints, just made a blanket statement on how shitty 40k fans are. Nor did you provide any kind of evidence that creating female space marines would pull in significant amounts female players (probably because all evidence says otherwise).

Click to shrink...

People have been predicting that 3 d printing will be the doom of GW for a decade now. It hasn't been. If anything GW has grown in the face of the challenge. But GW is also its ip, and has already strongly pivoted to leverage that ip. That won't be killed even if the printing revolution comes.

Also, mate, you have also very much not provided any evidence that the majority of people don't want fem marines. You, in fact, literally based it off your "feel" of the internet. And, like, as a generally right wing person and n generally right wing places, no shit the hobby communities you interact with will be against fem marines. But I earnestly doubt you have actually taken a large survey of gw's fanbase to make that statement. Indeed I doubt you've actually even managed to build a poll based off of communities you've interacted with rather then just spinning up what you remember that one time fem marines were mentioned on Reddit or Dakkadakka that had like 4 very angry people rant against it

I honestly don't know if fem marines would move the blip on female players. Studies do show the ability to identify with the media you interact with does drive engagement, but whether or not fem marines would be identifiable enough I can't say. I think GW should do it for reasons that aren't strictly numbers going up, though I do think that it wouldn't actually have a large effect on the numbers in either direction.

 

[Old Guard]

I talked to robin cruddace about it


If there's a hobby group, they play 40k. They might play other things too, but they also play 40k



People have been predicting that 3 d printing will be the doom of GW for a decade now. It hasn't been. If anything GW has grown in the face of the challenge. But GW is also its ip, and has already strongly pivoted to leverage that ip. That won't be killed even if the printing revolution comes.

Also, mate, you have also very much not provided any evidence that the majority of people don't want fem marines. You, in fact, literally based it off your "feel" of the internet. And, like, as a generally right wing person and n generally right wing places, no shit the hobby communities you interact with will be against fem marines. But I earnestly doubt you have actually taken a large survey of gw's fanbase to make that statement. Indeed I doubt you've actually even managed to build a poll based off of communities you've interacted with rather then just spinning up what you remember that one time fem marines were mentioned on Reddit or Dakkadakka that had like 4 very angry people rant against it

I honestly don't know if fem marines would move the blip on female players. Studies do show the ability to identify with the media you interact with does drive engagement, but whether or not fem marines would be identifiable enough I can't say. I think GW should do it for reasons that aren't strictly numbers going up, though I do think that it wouldn't actually have a large effect on the numbers in either direction.

Click to shrink...

Fair enough, I don't claim to know the mind of every fan in existence. I feel your ignoring some technical advancements made in the last few years in 3d printing, but this is something that only time will resolve.

As to some kind of increase in female participation if female space marines were released, well I'll believe it when I see it.