Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

[Angle]

Which basically means, @Angle that it's a bad idea to limit the search to 'only bigger than a light cruiser' for this search? Since we'll find very very little!

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Alright, I'll search the entire cruiser class.

The most important technological step towards it is organic-machine control. The other most important step is ensuring a stable political order that can play cookie clicker using the infrastructure we left behind without us.

We don't have to stick around for the boring parts of exponential growth.

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I'm not sure we need that, actually? We can already make manned manufactories, we just need to hand over the schematics and maybe pay for a couple to help them get started.

 

[thatguy99998]

We don't have to stick around for the boring parts of exponential growth.

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I resent this statement, the best part of exponential growth is when number simply goes up!

 

[Glau]

I like alectai's build, but I'm using my diplo options rather than wall of text, and for research I'm prioritizing other people being able to use what we've already built when we leave. It'll prep us for a military commander crew as well.

[X] Plan: Seeing the road ahead
-[free] dive into the database(s) you have access to and identify all cruiser class ships that you may be able to disguise your new home ship as. Emphasis on admech ships, since you will be able to use the Magos Vita identity, but don't exclude anything that might work.
-[X] Construction: (2,750 Ground BP, 500 Void BP)
--[X] 6x Spaceports (-600 BP, -150 CP)
---[X] We're going to build these on the spot they already nuked, because hey, it's Free Real Estate.
--[X] 60x Shuttles (-1200 BP, -300 CP)
--[X] Make good our Combat Losses (-270 BP)
--[X] Klyssa Station Dig Supplies (-250 BP, shipped using available infrastructure this turn)
--[X] Incentive Budget for the Summit and Rent (-430 BP)
--[X]1x Orbital Manufactory (-500 VBP, -50 CP)
-[x] Diplo: assist in the creation of a world-wide body to share uplift information, avoid wars, manage the reintegration of the admechs, and run a unified planetary defense.
-[X] Diplo: develop and put in place a transition plan to remove the tech-control and totalitarian aspects of the admechs, focus on the creation of a research and collaboration ethos, and integrate the enclaves with the rest of Denva 2. Immediately end sevitorization.
--[x] Victan: assist on integration of admech, from both sides
-[x] Research (200 RP)
--[x] Organic-Machine control (200 RP)
-[x] Anexa: education

@Neablis, I saw organic-machine control said "gated behind brain implants", but I didn't see brain implants on the available research, so I assumed it was ok?

 

[Prime 2.0]

I'm not sure we need that, actually? We can already make manned manufactories, we just need to hand over the schematics and maybe pay for a couple to help them get started.

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I mean, we can? But why do that when we can reuse all the manufactories we made for ourselves? The manned versions are less efficient, I thought.

idk, it just seems like a quicker path to us getting off world while leaving behind a given amount of local industrial capacity.

EDIT: That said, that doesn't mean I think this turn is the right time to research it - the fundamentals are still the order of the day, and if wet bio discounts organic-machine control then doing them out of order means we're over-paying and ultimately delaying our time table.

 

[Amerigo Vespucci]

[X] Plan: Seeing the road ahead

 

[Angle]

I mean, we can? But why do that when we can reuse all the manufactories we made for ourselves? The manned versions are less efficient, I thought.

idk, it just seems like a quicker path to us getting off world while leaving behind a given amount of local industrial capacity.

EDIT: That said, that doesn't mean I think this turn is the right time to research it - the fundamentals are still the order of the day, and if wet bio discounts organic-machine control then doing them out of order means we're over-paying and ultimately delaying our time table.

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It costs us, like, two build actions to just make that many manufactories again, versus organic machine control takes 1-2 research actions, and then probably a diplo action to put in the brain implants and give the people some training. We'd get an extra research this way, which is nice, but given the extra complexity and uncertainty I'm not entirely sure we'd come out ahead. Also, it might be nice to have mothballed facilities to come back to. :/

 

[Neablis]

@Neablis, I saw organic-machine control said "gated behind brain implants", but I didn't see brain implants on the available research, so I assumed it was ok?

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Yeah, according to the completed research page you did it on turn 9. I even moved it up from the "Requires Prereqs" tech section to the allowed one, but forgot to remove the text.

Re the megastructure argument the locals are likely to get interested until they learn the cost, at which point they're going to realize how much else they could do with that amount of BP. Like build a pretty large fleet.

 

[Gavinfoxx]

Yeah, according to the completed research page you did it on turn 9. I even moved it up from the "Requires Prereqs" tech section to the allowed one, but forgot to remove the text.

Re the megastructure argument the locals are likely to get interested until they learn the cost, at which point they're going to realize how much else they could do with that amount of BP. Like build a pretty large fleet.

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Yea, a wet navy fleet! How else do you get stuff in space cheaply? That's the whole point of these structures. Also how is a 'three tethers' space elevator less amazing than a one tether one? Or are you thinking of a one big spire type one, like the silly design in the Foundation show?

 

[Prime 2.0]

It costs us, like, two build actions to just make that many manufactories again, versus organic machine control takes 1-2 research actions, and then probably a diplo action to put in the brain implants and give the people some training. We'd get an extra research this way, which is nice, but given the extra complexity and uncertainty I'm not entirely sure we'd come out ahead. Also, it might be nice to have mothballed facilities to come back to. :/

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Now, see, this is where the magic of keeping options open comes in: organic-machine control takes 1-2 research actions right now. But, will it cost that after wet bio? What happens if we crit somewhere?

Honestly I shouldn't be so dismissive of manned manufactories, it's a valid path, I just don't see it as an everything-goes-well ideal. I'll keep them in mind going forward though. Options, options!

As for mothballed stuff - we'll be making our own production facilities that we bring with us on our adventures, I'm sure, and we can make having part of our OG production be ours again on our return part of the deal. It's workable.

...Not directed at you, but I still don't want to do organic-machine control this turn though.

 

[Crazy7s1]

[X] Plan: Sorting out the New Order

 

[Gavinfoxx]

Hey @Alectai, it's 'Quest for Knowledge' not 'Question for Knowledge'.

 

[Prime 2.0]

Hey @Alectai, it's 'Quest for Knowledge' not 'Question for Knowledge'.

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Eh, Neablis knows what he meant. Easy edit if Alectai is still on though I guess.

 

[Angle]

[X] Plan: Sorting out the New Order
Spoke with Alectai on discord a bit - and while I was unsure of not focusing on exponential growth this turn, once it was pointed out I broadly agreed with the rationale of securing the ability crash build space defenses/infrastructure before anything else.

Research-wise, it works with Anexa to do biology is wet, and uses the remaining points on A Study of Physics, so that's a pass.

Plan Nation Building also meets my research criteria, but I think it's premature to start investing effort into space elevator stuff.

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Oh, also! Which Discord server? Can someone post a link?

 

[Prime 2.0]

Oh, also! Which Discord server? Can someone post a link?

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I don't think there is an official one. This was just in the warhammer channel of a random other server we both happened to be on. Neablis is there too, but he doesn't own it or have his own channel or anything like that.

For my own part the main reason I went to Alectai there this time was just because the thread was already busy going back and forth on his plan, and I was kinda embarrassed that I hadn't read said plan myself until the last minute, so I didn't want to put him under pressure to respond to my questions publicly at the same time as everything else. Turned out alright.

 

[Glau]

organic-machine control takes 1-2 research actions right now. But, will it cost that after wet bio? What happens if we crit somewhere?

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Including the wet bio on the way to it means we pay 250 to get there instead of 200, if the price drops by 50% for just organic-machine control after wet bio.

If we want to hand over control when we move off planet then let's just do it now. We'll probably want to do psytech next along with talking to monestaries. It'll give us some understanding with them and see what the follow on research options are gated behind.

 

[Prime 2.0]

Including the wet bio on the way to it means we pay 250 to get there instead of 200, if the price drops by 50% for just organic-machine control after wet bio.

If we want to hand over control when we move off planet then let's just do it now. We'll probably want to do psytech next along with talking to monestaries. It'll give us some understanding with them and see what the follow on research options are gated behind.

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You're missing a step there.

-[] Organic-Machine control (200 RP) [...] (Unlocks brain implants that allow a human to control some number of CP worth of combat bots/ships. There are more technologies to allow humans to command larger ships/manufacturing systems as well) Locked behind brain implants.

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Organic-Machine control itself is only the prerequisite. Wet bio only has to reduce the chain as a whole by 100 RP to pay for itself within that chain.

Wet bio is 100 RP, not 150 RP, by the way. Study of Physics is the 150 RP item.

And honestly? 100RP as a discount might be lowballing it, considering how tough a problem giving kinesthetic control over an entire assembly line would be. But even if that's unconvincing, I expect we'll fish for more discounts for the follow-on tech(s) from Secrets of Machine Spirits as well, since those have proven themselves as the technology for offloading cognitive load to the equipment being controlled.

Between those two, organic-machine control is a few turns off in a proper build order that tries to get the most out of our RP. It's not like we're going to pass up on putting machine spirit chaos resistance into our ship, right?

 

[Angle]

Including the wet bio on the way to it means we pay 250 to get there instead of 200, if the price drops by 50% for just organic-machine control after wet bio.

If we want to hand over control when we move off planet then let's just do it now. We'll probably want to do psytech next along with talking to monestaries. It'll give us some understanding with them and see what the follow on research options are gated behind.

Click to shrink...

Wet bio will probably unlock a bunch of other stuff and save us research elsewhere, so still worthwhile overall. And I'm not at all sold on psytech right now, I'd like to get improved warp understanding first - which is behind researching the void abacus, another thing we really need to do.

 

[Prime 2.0]

Wet bio will probably unlock a bunch of other stuff and save us research elsewhere, so still worthwhile overall. And I'm not at all sold on psytech right now, I'd like to get improved warp understanding first - which is behind researching the void abacus, another thing we really need to do.

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So, proper warp understanding is a bit of a larger, and more importantly longer investment. My interest in the psytech study beyond its value of foundational research is that it, and the plausible discounts to active psychic shielding projects that may come of it, are grist for Monstary diplomacy because the samples are mainly of technology for psykers.

Psykers need protection from the warp/chaos, of course. That much is self evident, but for the same reason it is entirely possible that personal shielding or stability aids are just, literally among the samples and we don't know it yet because we haven't checked.

So as a build order concern, the psytech study is better placed closer to the front so we can keep the diplomacy train moving full speed. Warp understanding is great, and I do want to research the abacus before we leave, but it has a longer tail before it produces something we can use as a carrot for Secondus's psykers.

And if things go well this turn, we could be in a position to reach out to the monastaries next turn. We're lucky that research can enhance diplomacy actions taken same-turn, but with personal psy shields' research not even unlocked yet, psytech study is basically the only thing applicable to giving them something they want that we don't already have.

 

[Angle]

So, proper warp understanding is a bit of a larger, and more importantly longer investment. My interest in the psytech study beyond its value of foundational research is that it, and the plausible discounts to active psychic shielding projects that may come of it, are grist for Monstary diplomacy because the samples are mainly of technology for psykers.

Psykers need protection from the warp/chaos, of course. That much is self evident, but for the same reason it is entirely possible that personal shielding or stability aids are just, literally among the samples and we don't know it yet because we haven't checked.

So as a build order concern, the psytech study is better placed closer to the front so we can keep the diplomacy train moving full speed. Warp understanding is great, and I do want to research the abacus before we leave, but it has a longer tail before it produces something we can use as a carrot for Secondus's psykers.

And if things go well this turn, we could be in a position to reach out to the monastaries next turn. We're lucky that research can enhance diplomacy actions taken same-turn, but with personal psy shields' research not even unlocked yet, psytech study is basically the only thing applicable to giving them something they want that we don't already have.

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I'm a little skeptical about offering psytech to the enclaves - they seem entirely about suppressing their powers, not using or enhancing them. I doubt they'll want anything from us except shielding, and even that will require us to earn trust first, which might take a while.

 

[Prime 2.0]

I'm a little skeptical about offering psytech to the enclaves - they seem entirely about suppressing their powers, not using or enhancing them. I doubt they'll want anything from us except shielding, and even that will require us to earn trust first, which might take a while.

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Even so, the psytech samples are the most likely to directly give us something of that description, while also being fairly likely to discount or upgrade our existing shielding research tree.

Basically, it's just a choice about which is likelier to offer short term gains, given that both are on our fundamental research agenda. Psytech mostly wins out on the basis of being a shorter project that also directly provides a gaggle of blueprints to research that might be useful to the monastaries.

 

[Dimorphodon]

[X] Plan: Sorting out the New Order

So, next turn (if we are lucky with the diplo roll) I think is finally time to put the nose to the grind and do a 2 construction/ 2 research action, build as many void Manufacturers as possible and start researching the basics for ship design.

Weapon distribution, heavy cruiser, and battleships stealth are a must. Understanding the void abacus and better psi shields would be nice, but not as necessary as the others.

If all goes reasonably well, we should be hitting space by turn 18/19 with close to the best ship possible, having spend less than a century in Denva and leaving behind a productive ally on the path of their own exponential growth (specially if we invest a bit in uplifting).

The only problem with this time table are the monasteries. I think they are a golden opportunity to both recruit a psiker crew member and get some samples to research (and have an excuse to actually research them) but I don't know if we have the time to get embroidered in yet an other mechanicus tier drama before someone comes knocking in the Denva sistem.

 

[Angle]

[X] Plan: Sorting out the New Order

So, next turn (if we are lucky with the diplo roll) I think is finally time to put the nose to the grind and do a 2 construction/ 2 research action, build as many void Manufacturers as possible and start researching the basics for ship design.

Weapon distribution, heavy cruiser, and battleships stealth are a must. Understanding the void abacus and better psi shields would be nice, but not as necessary as the others.

If all goes reasonably well, we should be hitting space by turn 18/19 with close to the best ship possible, having spend less than a century in Denva and leaving behind a productive ally on the path of their own exponential growth (specially if we invest a bit in uplifting).

The only problem with this time table are the monasteries. I think they are a golden opportunity to both recruit a psiker crew member and get some samples to research (and have an excuse to actually research them) but I don't know if we have the time to get embroidered in yet an other mechanicus tier drama before someone comes knocking in the Denva sistem.

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Don't forget Klyssars Nest, either. If anything, I think there's more to be had there than the monasteries, and it'll also probably take a couple turns. And then there's Denva Prime, and the gas giant stations - this system is far from played out for us.

 

[Dimorphodon]

Don't forget Klyssars Nest, either. If anything, I think there's more to be had there than the monasteries, and it'll also probably take a couple turns. And then there's Denva Prime, and the gas giant stations - this system is far from played out for us.

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Yes, I was talking about finally beeing able to leave the planet, not the sistem. We haven't even begin our to do list on the sistem as a whole.

 

[Aliya]

[X] Plan: Sorting out the New Order

Seems like a reasonable plan to me.

 

[Tylonius]

A space elevator is the height of pointless grandstanding right now. The planet barely even has spacelift capability, they don't need to be able to funnel that much material into orbit anytime soon. Those resources and actions are far better spent helping them develop their industries and growing the tech base. Once they're a major industrialized power, then we can think about those sorts of megaprojects.