Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

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Also, while we definitely have too many pressing priorities this turn, before we leave the system we need to contact and figure out a way for the Xenos on Denva Primaris to live in harmony with the Denva Secundus humans (and probably help uplift and provide humanitarian [sophontarian?] aid to the Primaris Xenos too, considering they are at a mostly bronze age level), or we will come back to Denva system either to the remnants of Xeno genocide or a forever war between human and Xenos once more.
 
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[X] Plan: Look at this shiny apple full of knowledge, want to take a bite?
-[X] [Free] Poke around some more in the databases, looking for anything in particular.
--[X] You have a rought picture about who the Navigators are and what they can do by sheer osmosis of hearing them being mentioned occasionally in a conversation, but a deeper look would do good.
-[X] Diplomacy/Subversion (AdMech):
--[X] Okay, we're in the home stretch here with the AdMech, now we just need to stick the landing. The only problem is that, well you're literally robo satan and you want to break the Mechanicus technological monopoly over Denva because its terrible. This is going to take careful planning, questionable theological arguments, a lot of bribery and possibly even more murder. Step one is to tell Aevon counterintelligence that we've sorta coup'd the Mechanicus and give them access to enough inside information to ensure that the Mechanicus stays dumb and happy until we're ready. In the meantime, we'll prep the Mechanicus for the truth by using the expected restructuring of our takeover to put tractable minions in key places of power and removing the intractable before they can ruin everything for everyone else. Then, once we're ready we reveal the "truth." Our status as an ancient explorer from the heady days of the Dark Age of Technology. We offer them technology most ancient and a reprieve from needing to do drudging menial labor to keep the world spinning. More than that we offer them the chance to learn how to learn, and a Quest of Knowledge Unending.
--[X] And if that's not enough we have the biggest hammer anyway, so we'll smash some nails. We'll have 2000 Heavy Infantry Bots, plus more than enough mediums and lights to back them up in the unlikely event its needed, plus more than enough firepower to neutralize the WMDs.
-[X] Construction x1 (2650 BP)
--[X] Avatar (10 BP, 0 CP) (Your original Avatar with green hair, glasses and a naval uniform, from before your ship's accident)
--[X] Avatar (10 BP, 0 CP) (Your old tech-priest avatar before you blew it up)
--[X] Underground Spaceport (300 BP, 25 CP)
--[X] 12x Basic Stealth Assault Shuttle (25 BP, 5 CP)
--[X] 2x Humanized Heavy Infantry Bots w/ MP-MSJ (125 BP, 200 CP) (10x in Stealth Assault Shuttles, 1x base security, 1x escort for Vita Magi/Original Avatars)
--[X] 500 VBP - 100x Basic space stealth missile (5 Void BP, 1 CP) (launched to orbit)
--[X] Trade goods, Aevon (25 BP)
--[X] Trade goods, Mechanicus bribes (55 BP)
--[X] 12 Manufactories
-[X] Research x2 (400 RP + 25 RP)
--[X] Blueprint: 75 RP - Basic Stealth Assault Shuttle (25 BP, 5 CP)
--[X] Blueprint: 100 RP - Heavy Infantry Bots (100 BP, 200 CP)
--[X] Blueprint: 25 RP - Man-portable Machine-Spirit Jammers (10 BP)
--[X] Combat Bot Humanization, Redux (50 RP)
--[X] Combat cybernetics (50 RP)
--[X] Organ replacements (100 RP)
---[X] Anexa assists (+25 RP)
--[X] Secrets of the Machine Spirits (10/200 -> 35/200 RP)
-[X] Pay rent (Trade Goods, Aevon 25 -> 0)
-[X] Anexa active Action: Research (Organ replacement)
-[X] Victan active action: Subversion (AdMech)
 
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For people making plans about looking into Navigators, you might want to focus on what Mechanicus records say about the local Sector, that way lies an outdated mostly accurate map. All of the good Navigator stuff will be locked up in the void station that we currently have no access to.
 
As usual, early plan-draft with most of my reasoning:
meianmaru said:
[] Plan: Hear, Children, the Wisdom of the Ancients
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And the actual plan-vote:

[X] Plan: Hear, Children, the Wisdom of the Ancients
-[X] [Free] Poke around some more in the databases, looking for anything in particular.
--[X] You have a rought picture about who the Navigators are and what they can do by sheer osmosis of hearing them being mentioned occasionally in a conversation, but a deeper look would do good.
-[X] Diplomacy/Subversion (AdMech):
--[X] By the end of five years from now, your metaphorical hand will be hovering over even more metaphorical big red button that would wipe out the killsats, the ICBMs and the Enclaves themselves out of existence in a day. However, it looks like there might not be a need for that. Inform your allies in Aevon about your following plan: Arrange for talks about a change in leadership with the mechanicus, scheduled to begin just after your arsenal is ready. Use bribes if needed to arrange this, and work with Victan to gather more allies and shape the discussion beforehand, as well as prepare a revolution for if needed. There, argue for your case: "Reveal" that you are an Ancient behind the "Magos Vita" they've been talking to. An explorer from the Dark Age of Technology. Make a case for your outlook for the Quest for Knowledge, on how the wisdom of the Ancients was first earned. And how it was open to everyone, which was the reason the heights of the Golden Age of Technology were first reached. Yet you can see it still fell, so one of those lessons is to also learn from the failures of that Age. But not by blindly denying progress as evil, but by asking why the collapse happened. Again and again. Argue for a case for dismantling the killsat constellations and allowing both the locals and the Enclaves of the mechanicus to pursue developing their scientific understanding and technologies more freely. Of cooperation between them. As the talks (hopefully) go on, offer what you have offered before in bribes, but also some of the newer fruits of your completed and ongoing research to your potential allies. Mechanicus values their cybernetics after all, both as physical pieces as well as in the form of knowledge. If needed, give even limited amount of the vials containing the full-potency juvenat capable of restoring youth. Dress the blatant bribes as a demonstration on what approaching the Quest for Knowledge with the ways of the Ancients can bring. If needed to, escalate with following, step-by-step. First, by blowing up the killsats from the orbit if the Magi do not want them removed, then swatting ICBMs from the skies if they are launced. And finally, storming the Enclaves with assault shuttles and heavy combat bots to support a revolution, if the Magi still won't bend even a bit on allowing the monopoly on technology to escape their grasp.
-[X] Construction x1 (2650 BP)
--[X] Avatar (10 BP, 0 CP) (Your original Avatar with green hair, glasses and a naval uniform, from before your ship's accident)
--[X] Avatar (10 BP, 0 CP) (Your old tech-priest Avatar before you blew it up)
--[X] 1x Underground Machine-spirit Jammer (300 BP, 10 CP)
--[X] 1x Underground Anti-Orbital Defenses (300 BP, 5 CP)
--[X] 1x Underground Spaceport (300 BP, 25 CP)
--[X] 10x Basic Stealth Assault Shuttle (25 BP, 5 CP) (250 BP)
--[X] 2x Humanized Heavy Infantry Bots w/ MP-MSJ (125 BP, 200 CP) (1x in Stealth Assault Shuttles, 1x base security) (250 BP)
--[X] 1x Basic Artillery (300 BP, 50 CP)
--[X] 500 VBP - 100x Basic space stealth missile (5 Void BP, 1 CP) (launched to orbit)
--[X] 1x Underground Manufactory (100 BP, 50 CP) (300 BP)
--[X] 4x Man-portable Machine-Spirit Jammers (40 BP) (3 sets to our current set of bots, 1001 to keep in reserve/for named characters)
--[X] Trade goods, Aevon (25 BP)
--[X] Trade goods, Mechanicus bribes (65 BP)
-[X] Research x2 (400 RP)
--[X] Blueprint: 75 RP - Basic Stealth Assault Shuttle (25 BP, 5 CP)
--[X] Blueprint: 100 RP - Heavy Infantry Bots (100 BP, 200 CP)
--[X] Blueprint: 25 RP - Man-portable Machine-Spirit Jammers (10 BP)
--[X] Combat Bot Humanization, Redux (50 RP)
--[X] Combat cybernetics (50 RP)
--[X] Organ replacements (100 RP)
---[X] Anexa: Research (+25 RP)
--[X] Secrets of the Machine Spirits (10/200 -> 35/200 RP)
-[X] Pay rent (Trade Goods, Aevon 25 -> 0)
-[X] Anexa active Action: Research (Organ replacement)
-[X] Victan active action: Subversion (AdMech)
 
A thought, instead of blowing up the killsats, could we recycle them?

Think about it, a single Basic Defense Satellite costs us 300 Void BP. Times 100 satellites = 30,000 Void BP. Even if we only get some fraction of it, that is still a considerable amount.
Or to calculate it another way, a single Nuclear warhead costs 25 BP. Each satellite has six warheads (Which are way more powerful, but I'm setting a lower bound here) 6*25=150. 15,000 Void BP.
Point is, there is thousands of Void BP of infrastructure up there that we are 85% of the way to owning. Even if we don't like it, it seems like a waste to blow it all up.

If we gain sufficient control over the killsats via leadership of the AdMech, why not put their parts to more productive use?
 
JayTar said:
If we gain sufficient control over the killsats via leadership of the AdMech, why not put their parts to more productive use?
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That is a very big if though, our ability to destroy them without civilian deaths hinge on destroying them from surprise. If we try to hack first and fail they might get a shot off, which depending on where that shot is could kill millions.

[X] Plan: Hear, Children, the Wisdom of the Ancients
 
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DragonParadox said:
That is a very big if though, our ability to destroy them without civilian deaths hinge on destroying them from surprise. If we try to hack first and fail they might get a shot off, which depending on where that shot is could kill millions.
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Not necessarily. Why would we need to hack them if we are the de facto (or actual) leader of the local AdMech? We could have the genuine top access codes.

We could even use the almost-truth as our reason, the satellites cannot exist as even a tiny chance of them damaging our excavation is unacceptable.
At worst decommissioning them would be seen as an act of securing our control over the AdMech by removing any possible threats. Concerning perhaps, but if we are already in control nobody should complain too much.
 
DragonParadox said:
Because whoever inherited those codes from Thalya will fire them off to enforce their will. The Adeptus Mechanisus is not a democracy. They are a totalitarian cult that rules though fear.
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-which is only a concern if the person who inherits those codes isn't us.

The way the update ended makes me think we are in an excellent position to let that "totalitarian cult" bit work in our favor.
Neablis said:
Your avatar smiles, revealing bared teeth. "She was meeting with a servitor mimic of mine, remotely piloted. The moment she attacked, I detonated the bomb contained in its torso. I'm safe in an undisclosed location, and Magos Thalya is dead. It's time for us to discuss the future of the Mechanicus on Denva Secundus."
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Some people are voting to do a big reveal, but honestly my worry is that it skips a very important step. First we should secure control full over the cult. Then we try to push it in a more progressive direction.
We have a very strong start to becoming the undisputed leader of the local AdMech. Adding complications like "Oh I'm actually an Ancient and will now start asking tough theological questions" adds cracks that anyone who doesn't like us can exploit.

Anyway of the plans, this one seems closer to my preferred order:
[X] Plan: Look at this shiny apple full of knowledge, want to take a bite?

The other write-in is more elegant, but I worry about parts of it. Dismantling the killsats shouldn't be something we argue. By the time we announce we are doing it, there shouldn't be anyone left who will question it.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Because whoever inherited those codes from Thalya will fire them off to enforce their will. The Adeptus Mechanisus is not a democracy. They are a totalitarian cult that rules though fear.
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That doesn't seem accurate? It's a mystery cult where a lot of favor trading, secret trading, and politicking goes on, and Thalya wasn't formally in command over everyone else. She wasn't a Fabricator General, and didn't even have undisputed control over the Denca enclave.

Org-chart wise, 'organizational leader of Denva' probably falls to someone else now that Thalya has been eliminated, while the de facto position of 'most powerful Magos' is ours.

That's also something important to consider when considering how much power we have to enact reforms.
 
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JayTar said:
-which is only a concern if the person who inherits those codes isn't us.
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I mean the person who already inherited them. Those codes do not exist inside a glass case marked 'for the worthy'. Thakya will have aranged that in the event of her untimely death they would fall to a successor who shares her views. She was not expecting the bomb, but she was expecting a fight. Fights are chaotic, she could have gotten killed even though she had the upper hand.

WillRobinson said:
That doesn't seem accurate? It's a mystery cult where a lot of favor trading, secret trading, and politicking goes on, and Thalya wasn't formally in command over everyone else. She wasn't a Fabricator General, and didn't even have undisputed control over the Denca enclave.
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It's an Imperial institution. Violent authoritarianism is in its blood. As for Thalya see above, she would have had a successor in mind and as the one who presently had the codes there was no reason she could not have set up a successor with them and every reason to do so.
 
Maybe try to recycle/repurpose first, then if that fails and/or any of them seem at risk of being imminently used we destroy them? It might be a path of persuasion actually, as Admech hardliners can reassure themselves that all those precious weapons and infrastructure aren't going to waste and can be put to more productive ends.

@meianmaru, do you think adding that carrot (we will try to reuse the killsats for more productive ends) combined with the stick (that we will destroy or disable any killsats we aren't given control over for disarmament), could be useful messaging?

Now I'm less sure about this next part, but I think other AdMech WMDs like ICBMs should probably be allowed to persist for now as long as we gain some degree of control over them, considering that in the short term, there will still be significant anxiety within the enclaves during in a time of upheaval and radical change of being overrun by increasingly sophisticated and assertive nations, which although couldn't deploy WMDs due to their reliance on tech-priests to maintain and operate them (although I'm sure they would fear we could take over that role if we wanted to), could and would beat them in a prolonged conventional struggle they couldn't reliably turn to WMDs for without our direct intervention (from their perspective, they can't be certain we would join the nations enclave invasions, but they would be much more confident we would stop a WMD exchange considering our other policies we are pursuing simultaneously this turn like killsat disarmament) - but in "softer" geo-political expression and relations than war having those WMDs still has some weight (although that weight may in truth be but a safety blanket hardliners for maintaining enclave independence use to reassure themselves, but that still seems preferable to them going into full doom mode where nothing holds them back from pushing the button out of vengeful, fearful spite).
 
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DragonParadox said:
It's an Imperial institution. Violent authoritarianism is in its blood. As for Thalya see above, she would have had a successor in mind and as the one who presently had the codes there was no reason she could not have set up a successor with them and every reason to do so.
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Maybe? Their behavior likely depends on who the successor(s) are, if they actually have a target (not yet), and which codes they actually inherit from her. And also how likely waving around the nuke/killsat codes is to get them stabbed by the other Magi, or nuked in retaliation.

Was Thalya really the sort of person to choose a single successor, who might be incentivized to off her and inherit her stuff?

@Neablis do we have any idea what the (prior and current) distribution of the top-level killsat and nuke codes is? Did Thalya have them all, or were they distributed between the enclaves?
 
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If we want to recycle the satellites, we must first finish subverting the mechanicus, or at least take it to a point we are sure they are not going to press the red button.

In other words, to recycle we should wait for the next turn AND not fumble both the stealth roll and the diplomatic one. If we fail either of those, then the killsats must be the first thing to go.

[X] Plan: Hear, Children, the Wisdom of the Ancients
 
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WillRobinson said:
Maybe? Their behavior likely depends on who the successor(s) are, if they actually have a target (not yet), and which codes they actually inherit from her. And also how likely waving around the nuke/killsat codes is to get them stabbed by the other Magi, or nuked in retaliation.
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The target would be whichever enclave looks most likely to defect, probably the one whose leader we already suborned. When using weapons of mass destruction to intimidate the point is terror not pinpoint accuracy. They do not know we have a counter and all they would have to do to prevent themselves from being nuked is the same thing Magus Vita is apparently doing, send the signal from an undisclosed location.
 
[X] Plan: Look at this shiny apple full of knowledge, want to take a bite?

Being open about the whole ancient thing risks things blowing up. Literally. It's far to early for that.

I must also caution that there is another factor we need to consider, that being the psykers in their monasteries. They lack the Mechanicus' reverence for all things ancient and human, which means to them we'd just be a heretic. And if Vita being a ancient becomes known among the Mechanicus, it will leak beyond that organisation, especially since we intend open up said group.
 
DragonParadox said:
The target would be whichever enclave looks most likely to defect, probably the one whose leader we already suborned. When using weapons of mass destruction to intimidate the point is terror not pinpoint accuracy. They do not know we have a counter and all they would have to do to prevent themselves from being nuked is the same thing Magus Vita is apparently doing, send the signal from an undisclosed location.
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Why would that even happen in the situation Jaytar was describing in which we pursue legitimate access and control of the codes via the Cogitare Exploraratum and political influence?
 
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