Type Moon General
Seihai-kun
[Unverified Wish Granting Device]
- Location
- Brasil
As I said in SB, dark and gritty aesthetics =/= mature.
Well, besides a hate sink and horrible being not detracting from being a good character they can enjoy? Aka, they like him because he's a piece of shit?
There's also other media where he's a lot better/nicer/less villainous. Which, you know, make him likable in a "I actually like this guy" sense.
And then there's all the people who just like him because him being a piece of shit doesn't register/matter to them, which there's sadly too many of.
To be fair, most of his better qualities where showcased not in Prime!Fate timeline, but in spinoff game.
Fate/Extra
This is also game that showcases, among other things:
- Make Emperor Nero (Umu!) Great Again.
- That Tamamo no Mae is a good waifu material with fluffy tail instead of, y'know, one of Japanese Three Great Calamities.
- Vlad The Impaler... still crazy bastard, but a crazy bastard that was product of his time and situation and actually pretty admirable chap once you get past his bloodlettong and impaling stuff.
- Francis Drake is a swashbuckling, dashing pirate (and female) instead of, y'know, Francis Drake (more naval officer than swashbuckling pirate).
- And the True Final Boss basically Enlightened Siddhata Gautama.
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fallacies
Puyo Mage
It's old news and something of a recap, but some thoughts on Merlin and his capabilities.
In Grand Order, we're presented with two distinct takes on Merlin and his general performance in magecraft:
However, somewhat contradicting this, he gives at the end of Babylonia:
Given, Merlin is prone to lying — but which is it, exactly? Is he good or bad at magecraft?
Before attempting to determine that, let's first establish what it looks like when a Caster Class Servant bears a high standing in all Skills that qualify them as a Caster. From Media's in-game material in Grand Order:
For what it's worth, the Wikia counts a total of seven Servants that bear the skill High-Speed Incantation; whereas High-Speed Divine Words is borne by three Servants — Circe, Nitocris, and two versions of Medea.
(As an aside, I learned today that the people over at the Wikia have decided to rename High-Speed Incantation as Rapid Casting, and High-Speed Divine Words as Rapid Words of Divine ...)
Given the fairly large number of Casters without these, High-Speed Incantation / Divine Words should probably not be considered as Skills that serve as defining qualifiers to the Caster Class — though, I suppose the argument can be made that a highly competent Caster should certainly bear these Skills ... ?
In any case, let's have a look at how Merlin compares:
For an idea of what that means:
To play devil's advocate to myself, isn't there the possibility that his mats are incomplete? Maybe he was in fact lying? Maybe he actually has some unstated Skill — for example, Magecraft at a Rank of A+? Surely his reputation as great magus shouldn't all be a misrepresentation?
I would argue to the contrary. Beyond the fact that we obviously can't account for canon that hasn't been revealed to us, there really isn't any need for Merlin to bear some undocumented Skill that secretly makes him uber, even as his Class Skill Ranks are so poor.
His build isn't particularly impressive — until we begin to account for the implications of his nature as a Mixed Blood Incubus, alongside his ability with Illusionism. I would posit that once we do so, Merlin doesn't require a high Rank in any magecraft-related Skill to functionally become as a magus befitting of the title of a Grand.
So, what does Illusionism entail, precisely?
For a bit of elaboration on this, please refer to Prelati's profile in Strange Fake:
Per Merlin's own profile, Illusionism permits for an intervention unto the psyche, and the Projection (投影, tou'ei) of Illusions (虚像, kyozou, "false images") unto the real World. Note that the Projection here mentioned uses the same kanji as the Projection of Emiya Shirou.
Per Prelati's profile, Illusionism potentially permits a deception of the environment itself — but in Prelati's case, Illusionism gets sublimated unto his (her) Noble Phantasm, which permits that the Texture of the World can itself be deceived.
That seems rather more impressive than what Merlin can manage, if we just take his Material entry at face value. The thing is, that's not really the end of the story.
To comprehend why that is, let's first establish the basic nature of an Incubus:
Therefore, what are the capabilities that Merlin bears, as an Incubus Mixed Blood borne of the Skill of Illusionism?
Also, the "Projection of Illusions unto reality" may be semantically the same ability as "intervention unto a psyche (a dream)"; which may semantically by the same ability as the Skill of Independent Manifestation.
That is, note here that Merlin's nature as an Incubus somehow lends him a unique advantage in the capacity of intervention unto "the Collective Unconscious (集合無意識, shuugou muishiki) constructed by Sapients as of the state of sleep." Being that the Human Order / the World of Man is what it is; being that we're told that Merlin somehow cobbled together a rendition of Independent Manifestation from his existing abilities, how are we to interpret the "shadow" that walked at Guda's side?
To me, the obvious interpretation is that the "reality" within the World of Man is itself semantically the same variety of existence as a dream — the dream shared as of the Collective Unconscious of Man. Ergo, just as an Incubus borne of capability in Illusionism would be able to project himself into a dream; able to project Illusions as to manipulate phenomena within a dream, so Merlin should be capable of projecting himself into the World of Man; capable of projecting Illusions as to manipulate phenomena within the World of Man.
As circumstantial evidence to this, consider Roman's assertion that Incubi would be "virtually invincible as of the deepest depths of a dream." Where else have we heard something like that?
In any case, this all is just a response to an assertion I've heard recently, that "Merlin was clearly lying when he said he was bad at magecraft." The devil's advocate things were all approximate paraphrases of arguments posed to me.
In summary, I feel that the combination of Mixed Blood : EX and Illusionism : A permits for the enactment of multipurpose intervention unto the phenomena expressed within the World of Man — inclusive of multipurpose Projection and the emulation of Independent Manifestation, among other things.
Yes, Merlin has offscreen feats in Stay Night and Garden of Avalon and so forth — for example, the Conceptual Fertilization of Arturia's mother; educating Arturia in the use of the Barrier of the Wind King; possibly something related to the forging of Caliburn. Yes, it's possible that Illusionism doesn't account for these.
To that end, I'm not claiming that Merlin is incapable of performing anything aside from Illusionism. What's being suggested here is purely that Mixed Blood (Incubus) and Illusionism make for a skillset of such a wide range of application as to possibly justify / explain nearly every feat of magecraft that Merlin performs on-screen in Babylonia.
As an unrelated aside:
In Grand Order, we're presented with two distinct takes on Merlin and his general performance in magecraft:
7th Singularity - 2 - 3 - Part A (JP) said:
For comparison:
A magi amongst magi, he boasts.7th Singularity - 2 - 3 - Part A (NA) said:
However, somewhat contradicting this, he gives at the end of Babylonia:
7th Singularity - Epilogue (JP) said:
For comparison:
We have here a claim that he's bad with magecraft.7th Singularity - Epilogue (NA) said:
Given, Merlin is prone to lying — but which is it, exactly? Is he good or bad at magecraft?
Before attempting to determine that, let's first establish what it looks like when a Caster Class Servant bears a high standing in all Skills that qualify them as a Caster. From Media's in-game material in Grand Order:
In-Game Material - Medea - Bond 4 said:
For comparison:
So, a magus of higher competence would bear a Rank of A in Territory Creation and Item Construction; possibly a Rank of A in High-Speed Divine Words — though we can probably consider this the province of magi from the AoG, rather than a conventional thing.Grand Order Wikia said:
For what it's worth, the Wikia counts a total of seven Servants that bear the skill High-Speed Incantation; whereas High-Speed Divine Words is borne by three Servants — Circe, Nitocris, and two versions of Medea.
(As an aside, I learned today that the people over at the Wikia have decided to rename High-Speed Incantation as Rapid Casting, and High-Speed Divine Words as Rapid Words of Divine ...)
Given the fairly large number of Casters without these, High-Speed Incantation / Divine Words should probably not be considered as Skills that serve as defining qualifiers to the Caster Class — though, I suppose the argument can be made that a highly competent Caster should certainly bear these Skills ... ?
In any case, let's have a look at how Merlin compares:
Grand Order Material IV - Merlin said:
For comparison:
So, notably, Merlin bears Territory Creation, Item Creation, and High-Speed Incantation at a Rank of C.castor212 said:
For an idea of what that means:
- Territory Creation: There are 30+ Servants with a Rank exceeding C. At Rank C, there are 5 Servants, including Merlin. Only Hans falls below Rank C, at a Rank of D — though the Rank of Edison in this Skill is EX (D).
- Item Creation: There are about 20 Servants with a Rank exceeding C. At Rank C, there are 6 Servants, including Merlin. Marie (Summer) is the only Servant at Rank D; while Edison is at EX (D). Gilles, Shakespeare, and Xuanzang possess an unranked version of the Skill.
- High-Speed Incantation: 4 Servants fall above Rank C. At Rank C, there are 2 Servants, including Merlin. Only Hans falls below Rank C, at a Rank of E.
To play devil's advocate to myself, isn't there the possibility that his mats are incomplete? Maybe he was in fact lying? Maybe he actually has some unstated Skill — for example, Magecraft at a Rank of A+? Surely his reputation as great magus shouldn't all be a misrepresentation?
I would argue to the contrary. Beyond the fact that we obviously can't account for canon that hasn't been revealed to us, there really isn't any need for Merlin to bear some undocumented Skill that secretly makes him uber, even as his Class Skill Ranks are so poor.
His build isn't particularly impressive — until we begin to account for the implications of his nature as a Mixed Blood Incubus, alongside his ability with Illusionism. I would posit that once we do so, Merlin doesn't require a high Rank in any magecraft-related Skill to functionally become as a magus befitting of the title of a Grand.
So, what does Illusionism entail, precisely?
For a bit of elaboration on this, please refer to Prelati's profile in Strange Fake:
Strange Fake - True Caster said:
For comparison:
Prelati, by the way, is apparently a student of one of Merlin's students.OtherSideofSky said:
Per Merlin's own profile, Illusionism permits for an intervention unto the psyche, and the Projection (投影, tou'ei) of Illusions (虚像, kyozou, "false images") unto the real World. Note that the Projection here mentioned uses the same kanji as the Projection of Emiya Shirou.
Per Prelati's profile, Illusionism potentially permits a deception of the environment itself — but in Prelati's case, Illusionism gets sublimated unto his (her) Noble Phantasm, which permits that the Texture of the World can itself be deceived.
That seems rather more impressive than what Merlin can manage, if we just take his Material entry at face value. The thing is, that's not really the end of the story.
To comprehend why that is, let's first establish the basic nature of an Incubus:
7th Singularity - 15 - 2 - Part B (JP) said:
For comparison:
The term Incubus is rendered in the Japanese as 夢魔 (muma) — "ma (aberration) of dreams." They're described in Babylonia as psychic entities (精神体, seishin-tai, "bodies / corpora of psyche / mind") that act as parasites upon the human psyche. Per Merlin's Grand Order Material entry, he's fully succeeded the characteristics (特性, tokusei, "distinct trait / idiosyncrasy / peculiarity") of an Incubus.7th Singularity - 15 - 2 - Part B (NA) said:
Therefore, what are the capabilities that Merlin bears, as an Incubus Mixed Blood borne of the Skill of Illusionism?
7th Singularity - 16 - 1 - Part A (JP) said:
For comparison:
Recall that Illusionism permits for an intervention unto the psyche, and a Projection of Illusions unto the real World. Above, we find that the "intervention" of Incubi unto the psyche possibly bears the meaning of directly "entering" into somebody else's dreams.7th Singularity - 16 - 1 - Part A (NA) said:
Also, the "Projection of Illusions unto reality" may be semantically the same ability as "intervention unto a psyche (a dream)"; which may semantically by the same ability as the Skill of Independent Manifestation.
That is, note here that Merlin's nature as an Incubus somehow lends him a unique advantage in the capacity of intervention unto "the Collective Unconscious (集合無意識, shuugou muishiki) constructed by Sapients as of the state of sleep." Being that the Human Order / the World of Man is what it is; being that we're told that Merlin somehow cobbled together a rendition of Independent Manifestation from his existing abilities, how are we to interpret the "shadow" that walked at Guda's side?
To me, the obvious interpretation is that the "reality" within the World of Man is itself semantically the same variety of existence as a dream — the dream shared as of the Collective Unconscious of Man. Ergo, just as an Incubus borne of capability in Illusionism would be able to project himself into a dream; able to project Illusions as to manipulate phenomena within a dream, so Merlin should be capable of projecting himself into the World of Man; capable of projecting Illusions as to manipulate phenomena within the World of Man.
As circumstantial evidence to this, consider Roman's assertion that Incubi would be "virtually invincible as of the deepest depths of a dream." Where else have we heard something like that?
7th Singularity - 9 - 3 - Part A (JP) said:
Of course, we can interpret the nonchalant attitude toward the destruction of his current body merely as a byproduct of the seeming "immortality" rendered by Independent Manifestion — but recall again that Merlin's IM is in particular something that he cobbled together from other abilities. Ergo, disregarding IM, and considering his other capabilities, how precisely would he be manifesting a shadow at Guda's side?7th Singularity - 9 - 3 - Part A (NA) said:
In any case, this all is just a response to an assertion I've heard recently, that "Merlin was clearly lying when he said he was bad at magecraft." The devil's advocate things were all approximate paraphrases of arguments posed to me.
In summary, I feel that the combination of Mixed Blood : EX and Illusionism : A permits for the enactment of multipurpose intervention unto the phenomena expressed within the World of Man — inclusive of multipurpose Projection and the emulation of Independent Manifestation, among other things.
Yes, Merlin has offscreen feats in Stay Night and Garden of Avalon and so forth — for example, the Conceptual Fertilization of Arturia's mother; educating Arturia in the use of the Barrier of the Wind King; possibly something related to the forging of Caliburn. Yes, it's possible that Illusionism doesn't account for these.
To that end, I'm not claiming that Merlin is incapable of performing anything aside from Illusionism. What's being suggested here is purely that Mixed Blood (Incubus) and Illusionism make for a skillset of such a wide range of application as to possibly justify / explain nearly every feat of magecraft that Merlin performs on-screen in Babylonia.
As an unrelated aside:
For comparison:6th Singularity - Epilogue (JP) said:
So, apparently, the magi possessed by Demon Pillars are possibly confirmed to be blood-descendants of Solomon ... ? I'd forgotten that such a thing was mentioned.6th Singularity - Epilogue (NA) said:
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I'm not sure "decided" is the right word. One guy seems to have done this huge change to a lot of the names for skills following his own translations, and it looks to have never gotten fixed.
The Curious Fan
Perpetually sleep deprived
It's someone going back and changing things to the FGO NA translation.
fallacies
Puyo Mage
If they're going to do that, I don't understand why they don't just leave the original names as legacy or something — or provide actual links that work from Servant profiles. Disgusting.
Zap Rowsdower
Ex-cultist vagrant
- Location
- Bright lights, big city
- Pronouns
- He/Him
700 wives and 300 concubines.
Even if three quarters of the subsequent generation didn't breed much outside the Jewish gene pool, once you get three thousand years later you'd likely be hard-pressed to find anybody with European blood that didn't have some of Solomon's blood in their ancestry - Genghis Khan was only 600 years ago and he's already in 8% of Asia, a wider area in a narrower time.
Being blood-descended from Solomon is not impressive or worthy of note, unless you have actual evidence that it was down the chain of firstborns from a legitimate heir.
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Actually, that was only a proposed possibility, and there's equally valid evidence that they may have been wrong.
fallacies
Puyo Mage
Baseless speculation that I intended to post yesterday, but the effort-post on Merlin took far too long.
Simply, "what if we were wrong" in regards to the status of Prototype Arthur?
The current, generally accepted understanding of Prototype Arthur is that he's from another Universe. But what if he wasn't? What if he was in fact from LB6?
Arthur is apparently traversing timelines in the vicinity of the Greater History in the pursuit of a Beast from his World — but why would a Beast from a separate Universe qualify as a Beast in the Greater History of Grand Order? Does the Human Order just somehow "recognize" it, and relegate it to the seat of a Beast? That's possible, but there could be another explanation ...
Hypothetically, it would be more reasonable to suppose that the Beast was to begin with native to Grand Order's iteration of the Human Order — in which case, we would have to suppose that Prototype actually exists with association to / in the vicinity of the Greater History of Grand Order. For example, let's suppose that it takes place at some point in the recent history of LB6.
The Lostbelts have thus far advanced unto divergent modernities — with the exception of Shimousa, which aside from its apparently enduring peacetime doesn't look terribly divergent from its analogous time period within the Greater History. The Grail Wars of Prototype take place in something resembling the modern Japan seen in FSN. Could Shimousa in fact exist somewhere within the World of LB6 — with the Japan depicted therein eventually becoming as the setting of the Grail War in Tokyo?
Beryl complained a lot about a sheltered princess that he simply couldn't deal with. The theories so far with regards to her identity have mostly selected figures from British legend — but you know, there was in fact a certain sheltered girl with a difficult-to-deal-with personality, who happened also to be obsessed with Arthur. Do take note that the interior of LB6 should per the circumstances of the past chapters likely have advanced to 2020 as of the local analogue of the Common Era.
Obviously, there are some holes in this theory. Manaka isn't royalty, for one — but maybe she crowned herself Queen of a race of monsters? And what about Avalon, in the Inner Sea of the Star? Would there exist an Avalon distinct from the one that seals the male Merlin, where Prototype Merlin resides? Is that even possible?
We know from LB5-1 that the City of Olympus is in fact situated beneath the Surface, within the interior of the planet. We know from LB4 that the "reach" of a Lostbelt can encompass the entirety of a universe (albeit, one of Nasu's very small-scale universes). We know from LB3 that the World of a Lostbelt can encompass the entire Surface. Is it so unprecedented that a Lostbelt could hypothetically extend into the Inner Sea of the Star?
Ergo, why is it that Arthur somehow isn't visible to Chaldea / recognized by the Human Order? Could it be, for example, that he's in fact a Servant of the Lostbelt ... ?
Note also that narratively, Nasu gave that he intended to try and resolve most of the currently open plot threads prior to the conclusion of the current incarnation of Grand Order. Arthur's plot thread — so far unelaborated upon — would hypothetically conclude at some point before the end of Cosmos in the Lostbelt. The most reasonable place to do this would of course be LB6 ...
Just some idle thoughts that'll probably amount to nothing.
Simply, "what if we were wrong" in regards to the status of Prototype Arthur?
The current, generally accepted understanding of Prototype Arthur is that he's from another Universe. But what if he wasn't? What if he was in fact from LB6?
Arthur is apparently traversing timelines in the vicinity of the Greater History in the pursuit of a Beast from his World — but why would a Beast from a separate Universe qualify as a Beast in the Greater History of Grand Order? Does the Human Order just somehow "recognize" it, and relegate it to the seat of a Beast? That's possible, but there could be another explanation ...
Hypothetically, it would be more reasonable to suppose that the Beast was to begin with native to Grand Order's iteration of the Human Order — in which case, we would have to suppose that Prototype actually exists with association to / in the vicinity of the Greater History of Grand Order. For example, let's suppose that it takes place at some point in the recent history of LB6.
The Lostbelts have thus far advanced unto divergent modernities — with the exception of Shimousa, which aside from its apparently enduring peacetime doesn't look terribly divergent from its analogous time period within the Greater History. The Grail Wars of Prototype take place in something resembling the modern Japan seen in FSN. Could Shimousa in fact exist somewhere within the World of LB6 — with the Japan depicted therein eventually becoming as the setting of the Grail War in Tokyo?
Beryl complained a lot about a sheltered princess that he simply couldn't deal with. The theories so far with regards to her identity have mostly selected figures from British legend — but you know, there was in fact a certain sheltered girl with a difficult-to-deal-with personality, who happened also to be obsessed with Arthur. Do take note that the interior of LB6 should per the circumstances of the past chapters likely have advanced to 2020 as of the local analogue of the Common Era.
Obviously, there are some holes in this theory. Manaka isn't royalty, for one — but maybe she crowned herself Queen of a race of monsters? And what about Avalon, in the Inner Sea of the Star? Would there exist an Avalon distinct from the one that seals the male Merlin, where Prototype Merlin resides? Is that even possible?
We know from LB5-1 that the City of Olympus is in fact situated beneath the Surface, within the interior of the planet. We know from LB4 that the "reach" of a Lostbelt can encompass the entirety of a universe (albeit, one of Nasu's very small-scale universes). We know from LB3 that the World of a Lostbelt can encompass the entire Surface. Is it so unprecedented that a Lostbelt could hypothetically extend into the Inner Sea of the Star?
Ergo, why is it that Arthur somehow isn't visible to Chaldea / recognized by the Human Order? Could it be, for example, that he's in fact a Servant of the Lostbelt ... ?
Note also that narratively, Nasu gave that he intended to try and resolve most of the currently open plot threads prior to the conclusion of the current incarnation of Grand Order. Arthur's plot thread — so far unelaborated upon — would hypothetically conclude at some point before the end of Cosmos in the Lostbelt. The most reasonable place to do this would of course be LB6 ...
Just some idle thoughts that'll probably amount to nothing.
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fallacies
Puyo Mage
As an addendum to my post on Merlin —
The general argument that was posed to me was something like this:
What's that? Shakespeare isn't thought of as a user of magic in popular culture? Well, Percy Jackson has him as a demigod; and in the Sandman, he was contracted with Morpheus. Entire books have been written about the use of magic as depicted in Shakespeare's stories.
Yes, this is a straw-man. Yes, there are holes in the analogy. The point is that to the purpose of determining the precise expression of a given character's abilities within the canon, we only have the mats and the in-game explanations to work from — and so, interpretations should follow from the explanations given, rather than per the assertion that the canon is incomplete; that anything within the canon that goes against the interpretation is either incorrect or a misrepresentation.
If we just dismiss the canon out of hand, we can literally say whatever we like.
-
Switching topics, I've recently begun to see this sort of thing as an oft-repeated assertion:
Second, per the above, Extella gives that as there doesn't exist within the current Dimension (次元, Jigen) the energy to account for unrestricted timeline proliferation, said process would eventually exceed the capacity (容量, youryou) of the "Dimension," resulting potentially in the dissolution (緩和, kanwa, lit. "ease / loosen / relax / alleviate") / rupturing (破裂, haretsu) of the Solar System per the volume of data (情報量, jouhouryou) generated.
Obviously, there's a lot of undefined terminology being tossed about, but — to reword — the unrestricted proliferation of timelines generates a "volume of data" that exceeds "the capacity of the Dimension," which results in the "dissolution" / "rupturing" of the Solar System (which, per the connotations of 緩和, may be related to Heat Death?).
Given that every valid timeline within the Greater History contains an iteration of the Solar System, and what's being "dissolved" by the proliferation of timelines is the Solar System, is it the iteration of such within each and every timeline that's being "dissolved?"
Maybe that's possible — but we know that the Texture of the Surface (which encompasses the timelines of the Greater History, and iterations of the Solar System therein) is appended over an underpinning (at the very least, containing the Reverse of the World) that isn't necessarily subject to the arrow of time in effect within the Greater History; and doesn't specifically exist within the spatial continuity conventionally accessible to humans within the Surface.
Per Subspecies Singularity Shinjuku, the destruction within the context of a particular timeline of even the Earth isn't really that big of a deal; and we can therefore surmise that the destruction of the iteration of the Solar System within a particular timeline likewise wouldn't be a big deal. Why is it a big deal that timeline proliferation would destroy the Solar System, then?
The likely reason would be that it's not the Solar System within any particular timeline that's being destroyed. It's the Solar System without the Texture of the Surface.
Why isn't it given that "dissolution" extends beyond the Solar System? Who knows? Whatever the case, "exceeding the capacity of the Dimension" / "exceeding the accounting of the energy available within the Dimension" yields "the dissolution / rupturing of the Solar System" — rather than, say, "the dissolution of the Milky Way Galaxy" or "the dissolution of the Universe."
Obviously, this doesn't practically provide a sense of the scale of the accessible space within any particular timeline; but when it's claimed, for example, that LB4 "houses a fully mature galaxy," we would need to acknowledge that at some point (presumably before Arjuna embarked upon his quest against evil), the timeline that became the Lostbelt was just one amongst the many sustained by the Human Order.
The energy as to account for timelines is finite. Would each and every timeline therefore house a fully mature galaxy as defined per the conception of the universe as of modern science, even though we're told that excessive timeline proliferation destroys the Solar System? Or is the claim instead that Arjuna Alter's Lostbelt uniquely encompasses the entirety of a galaxy, even if that isn't applicable to a normal timeline?
Interpretationally, are we certain that we want to attribute such a capability to a timeline originally spawned of humanity's claim upon the Seat of Primacy amongst the inhabitants of a single planet?
Likewise, Kama / Mara is half of a Beast — originally, a God integrated unto the Star / the System of Nature upon the Earth; and in the capacity of a Beast, empowered / justified in the Human Order, likewise grounded upon humanity's claim to the Seat of Primacy. Are we certain that we want to claim that — on account of the wording that "Kama became the Universe itself" — it's a matter of confirmed canon that she's now a galactic / universal scale existence, specifically per the understanding of the universe as of modern science? I mean, she's at the time described as a Beast in infancy, but during the Ooku event, her "Universe" was explicitly constrained to the Great Interior. That's a pretty small "Universe" ...
Anyways, just venting some annoyance. The canon hasn't really provided for a clear comprehension of spatial scale in the context of the Human Order — so until it does, let's not escalate the scale of these things for the purpose of versus thread wanking.
The general argument that was posed to me was something like this:
- Merlin is in actuality extremely capable as a magus, because everything in real-world legend indicates this. He even references his incredible skill as a magus at his introduction in Babylonia. He was certainly telling the truth when he boasted of being "a magus amongst magi."
- Merlin is a liar. Therefore, when he claims to be poor at magecraft in the Epilogue of Babylonia, he's in fact lying — downplaying his ability in false humbleness, out of humor. In short, he was just joking.
- Yes, Merlin's profile in Grand Order Material give that in various skills associated with the Caster Class, his Rank is C. However, if you look at the description of his Territory Creation, the low Rank is only because he gives up halfway through. In fact, even if his High-Speed Incantation is only at a Rank of C, that by itself is a non-standard Skill held by talented magi; and the description is phrased as such that if he were trying harder, the Rank would be higher. Ergo, the low Rank isn't indicative that his actual capability in those Skills is low. It's just that the Material records his level of ability when he isn't trying his best. In short, Grand Order Material's tallying of his Skills is a misrepresentation of his real abilities.
- Even if all of Merlin's Skills were in fact at C, Servant Skills at a Rank of C are actually fairly incredible, relative to a hypothetical generic modern magus.
- Grand Order Material is notoriously incomplete, so it's entirely possible that he has one or more undocumented Skills — for example, Magecraft : A+.
- Merlin's feats in Babylonia and elsewhere are just miscellaneous spells that don't need to be explained within the context of the capabilities of his that are established within the mats. It's not as if the on-screen feats of Caster-Class Servants are exhaustively documented in the canon anyhow. As an example, Merlin taught Arturia how to use Barrier of the Wind King, and rendered Conceptual Fertilization to Arturia's mother. He may have even had a hand in the forging of Caliburn. In Grand Order, he's even able to disguise the Excalibur as Bedivere's prosthetic. None of that can be explained within just the documented part of his abilities in Grand Order Material.
- The mats are incomplete. His real ability isn't documented within the mats, and doesn't need to be. (Because I say so.)
- There is no requirement that his exhibited feats need to have any grounding or justification within the existent portion of the mats. (Because I say so.)
- The existent portion of his mats are in fact a misrepresentation of his actual ability, which is in reality much higher, per the selected interpretation. (Because I say so.)
- If Merlin's statements confirm the selected interpretation, he's telling the truth; but if they go against the interpretation, he's clearly lying. (Because I say so.)
- Even if the mats appear to somewhat confirm those statements of his that in particular go against the selected interpretation, the interpretation has already established that the mats in general are worthless as a reference by which to justify his skills. (Because I say so.)
What's that? Shakespeare isn't thought of as a user of magic in popular culture? Well, Percy Jackson has him as a demigod; and in the Sandman, he was contracted with Morpheus. Entire books have been written about the use of magic as depicted in Shakespeare's stories.
Yes, this is a straw-man. Yes, there are holes in the analogy. The point is that to the purpose of determining the precise expression of a given character's abilities within the canon, we only have the mats and the in-game explanations to work from — and so, interpretations should follow from the explanations given, rather than per the assertion that the canon is incomplete; that anything within the canon that goes against the interpretation is either incorrect or a misrepresentation.
If we just dismiss the canon out of hand, we can literally say whatever we like.
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Switching topics, I've recently begun to see this sort of thing as an oft-repeated assertion:
With respect to that, note the QTL explanation in the Extella game script (with some corrections / updates as of the version in this post):xela 63 said:
Extella (JP) said:
For comparison:
First, we should recognize that every single timeline within the Greater History encompasses a region of space that at the very least extends beyond the Surface of the Earth, into space. If an astronaut were to arrive on Mars, this would be the iteration of Mars particular to his native timeline. Ergo, in every timeline, there exists a distinct iteration of the Solar System and everything within it. Three thousand timelines would be three thousand Solar Systems. Take a moment to let that sink in.Extella (NA) said:
Second, per the above, Extella gives that as there doesn't exist within the current Dimension (次元, Jigen) the energy to account for unrestricted timeline proliferation, said process would eventually exceed the capacity (容量, youryou) of the "Dimension," resulting potentially in the dissolution (緩和, kanwa, lit. "ease / loosen / relax / alleviate") / rupturing (破裂, haretsu) of the Solar System per the volume of data (情報量, jouhouryou) generated.
Obviously, there's a lot of undefined terminology being tossed about, but — to reword — the unrestricted proliferation of timelines generates a "volume of data" that exceeds "the capacity of the Dimension," which results in the "dissolution" / "rupturing" of the Solar System (which, per the connotations of 緩和, may be related to Heat Death?).
Given that every valid timeline within the Greater History contains an iteration of the Solar System, and what's being "dissolved" by the proliferation of timelines is the Solar System, is it the iteration of such within each and every timeline that's being "dissolved?"
Maybe that's possible — but we know that the Texture of the Surface (which encompasses the timelines of the Greater History, and iterations of the Solar System therein) is appended over an underpinning (at the very least, containing the Reverse of the World) that isn't necessarily subject to the arrow of time in effect within the Greater History; and doesn't specifically exist within the spatial continuity conventionally accessible to humans within the Surface.
Per Subspecies Singularity Shinjuku, the destruction within the context of a particular timeline of even the Earth isn't really that big of a deal; and we can therefore surmise that the destruction of the iteration of the Solar System within a particular timeline likewise wouldn't be a big deal. Why is it a big deal that timeline proliferation would destroy the Solar System, then?
The likely reason would be that it's not the Solar System within any particular timeline that's being destroyed. It's the Solar System without the Texture of the Surface.
Why isn't it given that "dissolution" extends beyond the Solar System? Who knows? Whatever the case, "exceeding the capacity of the Dimension" / "exceeding the accounting of the energy available within the Dimension" yields "the dissolution / rupturing of the Solar System" — rather than, say, "the dissolution of the Milky Way Galaxy" or "the dissolution of the Universe."
Obviously, this doesn't practically provide a sense of the scale of the accessible space within any particular timeline; but when it's claimed, for example, that LB4 "houses a fully mature galaxy," we would need to acknowledge that at some point (presumably before Arjuna embarked upon his quest against evil), the timeline that became the Lostbelt was just one amongst the many sustained by the Human Order.
The energy as to account for timelines is finite. Would each and every timeline therefore house a fully mature galaxy as defined per the conception of the universe as of modern science, even though we're told that excessive timeline proliferation destroys the Solar System? Or is the claim instead that Arjuna Alter's Lostbelt uniquely encompasses the entirety of a galaxy, even if that isn't applicable to a normal timeline?
Interpretationally, are we certain that we want to attribute such a capability to a timeline originally spawned of humanity's claim upon the Seat of Primacy amongst the inhabitants of a single planet?
Likewise, Kama / Mara is half of a Beast — originally, a God integrated unto the Star / the System of Nature upon the Earth; and in the capacity of a Beast, empowered / justified in the Human Order, likewise grounded upon humanity's claim to the Seat of Primacy. Are we certain that we want to claim that — on account of the wording that "Kama became the Universe itself" — it's a matter of confirmed canon that she's now a galactic / universal scale existence, specifically per the understanding of the universe as of modern science? I mean, she's at the time described as a Beast in infancy, but during the Ooku event, her "Universe" was explicitly constrained to the Great Interior. That's a pretty small "Universe" ...
Anyways, just venting some annoyance. The canon hasn't really provided for a clear comprehension of spatial scale in the context of the Human Order — so until it does, let's not escalate the scale of these things for the purpose of versus thread wanking.
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Hmm...
Could it not, instead, be "the Solar System in the whole of the Surface?" That is, generalizing beyond the Solar System in each timeline or even within the Domain of Man, but not beyond the domain of the Planet? I'm not entirely sure I'm comfortable with the implication that Gaia's own personal timeline mismanagement could kill all of her peer Planets so easily.
Well, to be fair, there's a reasonable expectation for the latter. After all, uniquely in human history, the World does not need to host a tremendous number of timelines at once; it only needs to run seven, times perhaps however much those seven Lostbelts split in themselves. The number of stars in a galaxy is tremendous, but so might be the number of timelines; while three thousand is the usual number to cite here, if we instead take the version that has "three thousands" in the sense of one thousand cubed to be 'canonical' (as the JP Wikipedia page for 三千世界 does), we fairly closely approximate the number of stars in a galaxy -- the Sombrero Galaxy, for example, has about a hundred billion stars.
If each timeline natively contains a star and a Solar System, then the sanzen daisen sekai of 10003 timelines would in fact contain enough stars to be considered a small galaxy?
Plus, the Fantasy Trees are doing the heavy lifting of pinning down the Lostbelts, and they also contain entire galaxies; it's heavily implied in SIN that the Trees must possess at least tremendous computational memory if perhaps not explicitly a similarly tremendous computation power, but perhaps we might infer that the Trees are, well, "holding up the sky" as it were, taking some of the load from the Planet. The Alien God isn't trying to kill the Earth, after all...
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fallacies
Puyo Mage
I just realized that I somehow forgot to post this to a general thread, even though I wrote it out 3 years ago.
Therefore, to repost, Tamamo's Servant Matrix in Extra gives the following, which apparently wasn't translated in the localization:
For reference, the complete Matrix entry in the JP:
Therefore, to repost, Tamamo's Servant Matrix in Extra gives the following, which apparently wasn't translated in the localization:
That is, Amaterasu (Suijaku) = (Honji) Vairocana (Dharmakāya) = (Sambhogakāya) Dakini-ten, and Tamamo-no-Mae is an aspect of Amaterasu (or whatever she's calling herself this week).
For reference, the complete Matrix entry in the JP:
Extra (JP) said:
A brief explanation for some of the terminology:
Yakan (野干): Also written as 射干 (yakan). In Chinese mythology, an evil fox-like creature. Thought to be a misconception of the jackal, which weren't commonplace in medieval China.
- Suijaku (垂迹): lit. "vestige / remnant." As of Japanese Shinbutsu-Shuugou (神仏習合), the interpretation of a Shinto deity as an expression of a Buddhist deity.
- Honji (本地): lit. "original ground." As of Japanese Shinbutsu-Shuugou, the Buddhist deity analogous to a particular Suijaku.
- Dharmakāya (法身, houshin): lit. "body (as) law / truth." As of the Buddhist doctrine of the Trikaya, the "unmanifest" form of the Buddha that is as the ultimate objective of Buddhist practice.
- Sambhogakāya (報身, houshin): lit. "body (as) remuneration." In the Sanskrit, "enjoyment body." As of the Buddhist doctrine of the Trikaya, the spiritual body attained as of the accumulation of sufficient practice as to become a Buddha, capable of expression to Pure Lands and the visions of practitioners.
- Vairocana (大日如来, dai-nichi nyorai): Thought to be the Dharmakāya of the Buddha Gautama. As of Japanese Buddhism, his name is written as 大日如来 (dai-nichi nyorai), and was as of Japanese Shinbutsu-Shuugou posed as the Honji to the Suijaku that is Amaterasu. Incidentally, one of the titles of Amaterasu is written as 大日女尊 (oohiru-me-no-mikoto) — the Goddess of the Great Sun.
- Dakini-Ten (ダキニ天): 天 is pronounced either as "ten" or "kami," but translates in the context of Buddhism as "Deva." Dakini-Ten (荼枳尼天) is in particular a female Deva associated with Kitsune. In EXTRA, Nasu asserts that she may be regarded as a Sambhogakāya to the Dharmakāya that is Vairocana.
- Inari-Myoujin (稲荷明神): The God / Goddess of the harvest, associated with Kitsune. As of Japanese Shinbutsu-Shuugou, posed as the Suijaku to the Honji that is Dakini-Ten.
- Uka-no-Mitama-no-Kami (宇迦之御霊神): A God / Goddess of the harvest; one of the children of Susanoo-no-Mikoto, sometimes regarded in Shinto as syncretic to Inari.
- Genpei Jousuiki (源平盛衰記, "The Record of the Rise and Fall of the Genpei"): An extended version of The Tale of the Heike (平家物語, Heike Monogatari).
- Taira-no-Kiyomori (平清盛): The creator of the first samurai-dominated administrative government in Japan.
- aramitama (荒御魂): Generally, "a divine spirit regressed unto savagery." As of Shinto belief, expressions of a deity can subsequent to ruinous events such as war or disaster regress to a wilder, more primal state — perhaps their original form, which existed precedent to civilization.
- keshou (化生): Semantically, "incarnation." In Buddhism, "upapāduka," or "the spontaneously-born." In Japanese folklore, "that which has transformed" — referring to the transfiguration of an existence to some sort of supernatural being, as in the manner of tsukomogami. Generally synonymous to "youkai."
I don't have the game on hand at the moment, and therefore cannot confirm that this is the exact translation used within the localization, but do note the differences.Wikia said:
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Noooot sure if I'm allowed to link it, but Fate Requiem has just had two more chapters translated.
Galahad's wardrobe:
He's also a dick!
Galahad's wardrobe:
He's also a dick!
fallacies
Puyo Mage
Regarding the assertion that "it's only per a retcon as of CM3 that Shirou can't Project Excalibur, when he literally replicated SAlter's sword when creating 'the strongest sword he knew' in Heaven's Feel" — I would note that we do have the following:
In any case, it's honestly getting tiresome to see over and over the claim that Nasu habitually engages in retcon as to explain how particular characters perform supposedly impossible actions.
Regardless of the picture displayed at the time (which was of SAlter's sword), Shirou's HF projection was never identified by name.
Emiya gave in UBW that he can't project Excalibur itself, but that he can manufacture an approximation of such.
CM3 was published in 2010. It gave outright that Divine Arms cannot be projected. This wasn't a retcon, but an elaboration on the bit from UBW.
Given that Emiya refers to what he can do with Excalibur as a "legitimate replication," despite it explicitly falling short — is it in fact demonstrable that the HF projection was the Excalibur outright, and not merely the sort of thing that Emiya claimed to be capable of creating?
To rephrase for emphasis:
Emiya stated that he can't Project Excalibur in UBW.
HF doesn't explicitly state that Shirou Projected the Excalibur.
6 years later, CM3 clarified that Divine Arms can't be Projected at all via Unlimited Blade Works.
The generally purported "retcon" in CM3 — the confirmation that Shirou can't Project Divine Arms — is in fact consistent to Emiya's statements in UBW.
Ergo, per this clarification that CM3 provided, we can infer that Shirou really wasn't Projecting the Excalibur.
A clarification of unclear canon does not a retcon become. It's only a retcon if there's some established fact of the canon that's explicitly being contradicted by material later released. What's being contradicted in this instance is just an unfounded impression amongst the audience that Shirou was in fact Projecting the Excalibur in HF, which has no explicit basis in the text of the game, regardless of the pic that turned up.
Was the image of SAlter's Excalibur misleading? Yes, indeed. But did it explicitly connote that Shirou Projected the Excalibur? No — or at least, there's no way that we can confirm with certainty that that's what was going on.
Therefore, even a hypothetical retcon that maybe the Excalibur Morgan isn't Divine Arms wouldn't effectively apply, as Shirou can't be confirmed to have even Projected the Excalibur in the first place. Invocation of whether or not Excalibur Morgan is specifically Divine Arms is irrelevant to whether or not Shirou can Project Excalibur, as CM3 simply tells us outright that he can't. Ergo, Nasu "retconned something to explain why somebody can do something they shouldn't be able to do" doesn't here apply.
Further, maybe it's my poor memory, but even as there are indeed a couple of retcons floating about, I don't actually recall a circumstance where the above claim is applicable, with regard to a character performing an action that should be impossible.
In response to something Bludflag said on SB:
The relevant dialogue can be found here.
The parts marked in red below are missing from BL's version.
乱す技 = technique that throws to chaos
It was difficult interpreting what the sentence meant with the す missing.
Also, as far as I can tell, the bit highlighted in green either is probably a typo.
This also contributed to the difficulty of the interpretation.
The correct word is probably 経脈 (keimyaku), which refers to Meridians for the circulation of Qi.
On an unrelated note, TMDict's JP entry on Gradation Air has errors.
The parts marked in red below are missing or incorrect.
まつこと isn't a word.
That said, note that when it states that Shirou is capable only of Projecting things related to armaments, it's sort of already contradicted by the junk he's projected in his shed — unless we presume that said objects still somehow fall within the category of "weapons related to melee" ... ?
Anyways, the above has been posed as evidence that Shirou / Emiya may be outright incapable of Projecting firearms — failing to account for Emiya Alter's K&B guns. By the above, there hypothetically exists a set of objects that may be Projected — restricted to "weapons usable in melee," and excluding "modern weapons." My presumption is here that there exists without this particular set another body of traceable objects within which fall the junk in Shirou's shed?
Unlimited Blade Works - Day 14 - 03 said:
For comparison:
And then we have this bit in CM3:Mirror Moon said:
Complete Material III - Frequently Asked Questions - Page 134 said:
For comparison, the BL translation:
By the way, 機動兵器 (kidou heiki) is a term from Gundam generally translated as Mobile Weapon.Kertys said:
In any case, it's honestly getting tiresome to see over and over the claim that Nasu habitually engages in retcon as to explain how particular characters perform supposedly impossible actions.
Regardless of the picture displayed at the time (which was of SAlter's sword), Shirou's HF projection was never identified by name.
Emiya gave in UBW that he can't project Excalibur itself, but that he can manufacture an approximation of such.
CM3 was published in 2010. It gave outright that Divine Arms cannot be projected. This wasn't a retcon, but an elaboration on the bit from UBW.
Given that Emiya refers to what he can do with Excalibur as a "legitimate replication," despite it explicitly falling short — is it in fact demonstrable that the HF projection was the Excalibur outright, and not merely the sort of thing that Emiya claimed to be capable of creating?
To rephrase for emphasis:
Emiya stated that he can't Project Excalibur in UBW.
HF doesn't explicitly state that Shirou Projected the Excalibur.
6 years later, CM3 clarified that Divine Arms can't be Projected at all via Unlimited Blade Works.
The generally purported "retcon" in CM3 — the confirmation that Shirou can't Project Divine Arms — is in fact consistent to Emiya's statements in UBW.
Ergo, per this clarification that CM3 provided, we can infer that Shirou really wasn't Projecting the Excalibur.
A clarification of unclear canon does not a retcon become. It's only a retcon if there's some established fact of the canon that's explicitly being contradicted by material later released. What's being contradicted in this instance is just an unfounded impression amongst the audience that Shirou was in fact Projecting the Excalibur in HF, which has no explicit basis in the text of the game, regardless of the pic that turned up.
Was the image of SAlter's Excalibur misleading? Yes, indeed. But did it explicitly connote that Shirou Projected the Excalibur? No — or at least, there's no way that we can confirm with certainty that that's what was going on.
Therefore, even a hypothetical retcon that maybe the Excalibur Morgan isn't Divine Arms wouldn't effectively apply, as Shirou can't be confirmed to have even Projected the Excalibur in the first place. Invocation of whether or not Excalibur Morgan is specifically Divine Arms is irrelevant to whether or not Shirou can Project Excalibur, as CM3 simply tells us outright that he can't. Ergo, Nasu "retconned something to explain why somebody can do something they shouldn't be able to do" doesn't here apply.
Further, maybe it's my poor memory, but even as there are indeed a couple of retcons floating about, I don't actually recall a circumstance where the above claim is applicable, with regard to a character performing an action that should be impossible.
In response to something Bludflag said on SB:
The transcription in BL is wrong.Bludflag said:
The relevant dialogue can be found here.
The parts marked in red below are missing from BL's version.
乱技 = chaotic technique ... ?EXTRA said:
乱す技 = technique that throws to chaos
It was difficult interpreting what the sentence meant with the す missing.
Also, as far as I can tell, the bit highlighted in green either is probably a typo.
This also contributed to the difficulty of the interpretation.
The correct word is probably 経脈 (keimyaku), which refers to Meridians for the circulation of Qi.
On an unrelated note, TMDict's JP entry on Gradation Air has errors.
The parts marked in red below are missing or incorrect.
Side Material said:
For comparison:Side Material said:
グラション is like "Gracion" or something.TMDict said:
まつこと isn't a word.
That said, note that when it states that Shirou is capable only of Projecting things related to armaments, it's sort of already contradicted by the junk he's projected in his shed — unless we presume that said objects still somehow fall within the category of "weapons related to melee" ... ?
Anyways, the above has been posed as evidence that Shirou / Emiya may be outright incapable of Projecting firearms — failing to account for Emiya Alter's K&B guns. By the above, there hypothetically exists a set of objects that may be Projected — restricted to "weapons usable in melee," and excluding "modern weapons." My presumption is here that there exists without this particular set another body of traceable objects within which fall the junk in Shirou's shed?
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- Location
- Sydney
To be honest this is an extremely charitable way of reading that and a very narrow sense of the word retcon which is pretty well understood to mean a revelation that something the audience thought was actually something else.
"This Excalibur looking thing shirou projected is actually not Excalibur but just a thing that looks like Excalibur and Archer saying he could project a degraded version of it meant he could project a completely different sword" is almost the archetypical example of a retcon. In that it reveals to the audience that something which appeared to be the case actually didn't happen.
fallacies
Puyo Mage
Was it therefore a retcon that fan-translators and the audience thought that SHEBA was SHIVA, before Salem demonstrated that it was really SHEBA all along?
The audience in general possessing a mistaken impression of something doesn't yield that the creator necessarily contradicts themselves when issuing a clarification.
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No, but that's a mistake on the part of unofficial translators. Nasu put the picture of Excalibur Morgan right there up on the screen. Its a visual novel, why wouldn't a picture of Excalibur Morgan right after Shirou says there's a sword in his hand be confirmation as much as words? I half suspect we will see Shirou with it in about a month when Ufotable animates it. Even from Archer's dialogue, I think its made clear that he can project a psuedo Excalibur at the cost of his own life. Your translation's even more indicative of that in regards to Archer's dialogue.
You can say that may have not been Nasu's intent, but who knows? What we do know is that the text as written claims that, not any holy sword, but that particular sword, is approximatable.
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Seihai-kun
[Unverified Wish Granting Device]
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Eh? I always thought the Excalibur Morgan he did at the end of HF was just a really fucking imperfect copy. He didn't care if it was good enough, didn't care if going over the limits for trying anyway would kill him since he was already dying.
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You are right, and you are right.
Is people assuming things what made people believe he retconned that part...
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What the hell does this have to do with that situation?
There's a picture of Excalibur and Archer says he can project it in degraded form. This is later clarified to be "Shirou projected something else and the visuals were an art failure and Archer I guess meant a completely different weapon entirely even though the entire point of his exchange with Saber is that he's explicitly talking about Excalibur." It's a retcon, it doesn't make it bad or whatever but call it what it is. There's no need to perform mental gymnastics to 'defend' a point that doesn't need to be defended.
Seihai-kun
[Unverified Wish Granting Device]
- Location
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Archer says he can't do something of the same magnitude of Excalibur. CM3 says he can't copy Excalibur. How is this a retcon?
Archer says that an approximation of Excalibur would be doable. HF Shirou projects something that looks like Excalibur Morgan, but we're never told how close to the actual Excalibur he got. For all we know, that projection could be in the same range of the doable approximation that Archer speaks of in UBW.
Frankly, if I could compare the HF feat to anything, it would be the hollow Divine Constructs Miyuverse Shirou projects when hooked to the Grail/Miyu.
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Because that's not the point in contention, the argument isn't "Shirou projected a hollow Excalibur but not a full one" it's "Shirou projected something else entirely and the visuals are a lie." The argument isn't "Archer can project a hollow Excalibur but not a full one" it's "Archer can't project Excalibur at all." The retcon is precisely that we went from "Archer and Shirou can project degraded copies of the Holy Sword" to "Archer and Shirou can't project Excalibur or any other divine weapons at all."