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Type Moon General

The Imperator said:
Not immortality alone, there are immortals in Nasu that clearly progress in their beliefs and values and such, but stagnation in specific causes that time line to be pruned because the thing that does it is trying to engineer successful human time lines.




Joan is dead, because she died in the 100 years war. However, the Throne collects all memories from life, and from temporary incarnations during summonings as a Servant. Thus she clearly at one point leaves the throne and finds Sieg. She is dead, the Throne just decided that she was important enough in history to pull her spiritual essence out of the cycle of reincarnation for use as a possible weapon to defend humanity (IIRC that last point about why the Throne collects things).

Shirou Amakusa specifically says that humans will lose survival instincts, and then no longer have bodies. On top of that, Shirou's entire plan rests on the belief that humans can't really be good on their own, it's basically him forcibly stripping away everyone of their physical bodies, meaning future generations cease to exist. Joan's point was that his "salvation" for humans is basically causing an end to all strivings from people and setting them at a specific population for eternity. That's kind of monstrous when you think about it, like would you want to be yanked out of your body one day and lose all elements of what some dude considers "survival instincts" from your personality?

Shirou's plan takes agency from every human in existence, violates their body and very being, and forces them to live in a way he considers perfect. It's wrong because it's basically mental and physical violation on a global level.

EDIT: And then Joan points out that if people become ok with the all powerful Japanese bishonen in the sky telling them what is correct, they'll never strive for anything unless said all powerful bishonen Japanese dude in the sky tells them to. And that kind of makes a mockery of all the people who have worked to make the world a better place.

Shirou also says he will remove all pain. That alone radically alters humanity to something unrecognizable.


EDIT2: I forgot Gilles redemption and God (possibly Alaya) just coming in and fixing things.
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So I went back and watched it again...

I missed the line where he says everyone's gonna lose their bodies and exist as just mental existences. Yeah that changes things, although I still think the whole thing about no pain and other crap is just hyperbole (can he remove the pain of missing your body? or the pain of that one time you meant to say one thing but said a mother? I think not)

Which is kind of a shame because otherwise my arguments might have gone somewhere.

In the end I admit Sieg was right to prevent humanity becoming a bunch of ghosts and cunning to get immortality and a girlfriend out of it.

As for Joan dying, while Joan the human died ages ago that's not all that relevant since Sieg's girlfiend is Joan the magic ghost thing who later turns up to go on a date after he becomes a dragon. If you're having adventures with you dragon boyfriend you ain't dead.
 
WorldSlayer said:
So I went back and watched it again...

I missed the line where he says everyone's gonna lose their bodies and exist as just mental existences. Yeah that changes things, although I still think the whole thing about no pain and other crap is just hyperbole (can he remove the pain of missing your body? or the pain of that one time you meant to say one thing but said a mother? I think not)

Which is kind of a shame because otherwise my arguments might have gone somewhere.

In the end I admit Sieg was right to prevent humanity becoming a bunch of ghosts and cunning to get immortality and a girlfriend out of it.

As for Joan dying, while Joan the human died ages ago that's not all that relevant since Sieg's girlfiend is Joan the magic ghost thing who later turns up to go on a date after he becomes a dragon. If you're having adventures with you dragon boyfriend you ain't dead.
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I mean, you can be dead in a setting where there is an afterlife. Which is where Joan is from :p
 
WorldSlayer said:
I missed the line where he says everyone's gonna lose their bodies and exist as just mental existences. Yeah that changes things, although I still think the whole thing about no pain and other crap is just hyperbole (can he remove the pain of missing your body? or the pain of that one time you meant to say one thing but said a mother? I think not)
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It actually doesn't matter whether or not they're ghosts.

Goetia's plan in Grand Order would've created an undying utopia wherein humans still bear flesh, but are immortal nevertheless -- explicitly absent of pain and suffering. The counterargument against it was that in such a world, there could be no growth or advance; no mistakes that could be costly enough to incentivize improvement in any way; no putting behind of a status quo in favor of a better future. Humanity would be carrying the whole of their past into the future, and simply be alright with it, because they would never come to feel that the status quo is at all problematic.

Fundamentally, that's a situation that is entirely static.
 
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More info on the Charlemagne and Karl situation
No they also have the Vlad thing going on. Charles's aspects are basically treated as a dream to Karl remember? Under normal circumstances the one you summon whenever you try to get Charles will be "the other one" aka Karl, and that Karl has aspects of Charles as "a dream" like the Karl here. Charles told Hakuno that he is grateful for the servant debut battle, which Hakuno questioned. Because he/she thought that there's no way a heroic spirit with that famous name has never been summoned in a HGW in any parallel worlds. Charles replied that the one summoned will be Karl. So my guess is that becuz Karl the Great's historical fact is too...great, you will roll him like 99,9999999% of the time when you try to summon Charles, even if you specify "I WANT TO SUMMON THE FICTIONAL GUDAFACE CHARLES NOT MR KARL PLZ WHY U ALWAYS GIVE ME OLD MAN GRAIL!!!" or something like that.

According to Charles, the reason why they are separate here is because Karl was already summoned to do the assimilation shenanigans, so the fictional part of Karl - Charles - was summoned to fix the conflicts, so maybe it's the Moon's rule that you can only have 1 copy of a servant summoned in a parallel world at a time, which goes along with the whole "when Archie and Liz slide to another parallel world, the ones in that world will be merged with the new arrivals". That's why he said that this is an exception, a limited summoning circumstance and that he must go away when all done, that's why you see the ending CGs of both the first 2 endings with him bidding farewell, and that's why his saint graph is identical to Karl and Jeanne mistaken him for actual Karl. However he said he believes in Moon Cell tech, and that if something happens again he might be summoned again so when that time comes please take care of him again. In the 3rd route we get into Altera's mindset as she decided to save Karl and Charles like they tried to help her. So in this route the ending CG is Karl dying while sitting on his throne under sunset, after his fight till the end (first 2 routes you only fight his gundam then he dies, in this route you destroy half of his gundam he henshin more, then the 2nd half destroyed he came out and face you 1v1). Then afterwards Altera explained the whole saint graph data registering stuffs to be able to resummon both of them. She said that both are Karl and both are powerful servants who will be very useful in the war against Velber in the future, so let's summon them now. Basically this story is like EoR to FGO, you can skip it entirely and next time you'll see Charles and Karl showing up as 2 different servants with a tag "normally they cannot be summoned like this cuz they are the same Heroic Spirit with Karl being too great it dwarfs poor Charles, but due to certain incident it is now possible".
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Fate/Extella Story and Lore (free range spoilers) - Page 150

The Flying city
Actually Charles and Hakuno only said that the tales of Charles told in Song of Roland, Orlando Furioso = fictional. I don't remember seeing any line (yet) that said the paladins themselves are fictional.

The flying city is literally a huge city floating in the sky, like what you saw in artworks. The scale is seemingly alot bigger than the hanging gardens. It has various defense artillery and the gundam is part of it. Charles compared it to the Rome and Heiankyou territory. It has various power plants, one of them used Gil's saint graph as battery. There also some sort of factories that will mass produce copies of Hakuno's servants (like FGO Apo collab ones, which makes alot of sense considering Higashide is writing) and shadow servants from the blue particles (data).
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Fate/Extella Story and Lore (free range spoilers) - Page 149

Karl's 3 NP's
Karl's NP names: Joyeuse, Carolus Patricius (the flying Holy City), Carolus Patricius Auctoritas (gundam), Carolus Patricius Dimitte (assimilation virus).
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Fate/Extella Story and Lore (free range spoilers) - Page 148
 
Marie Mats



MoC Translation of Charles' Skills

Holy Knight Emperor
A title skill bestowed to the one who leads the holy knights (paladins) known as Twelve Peers. It provides a tremendous Charisma, improved attacks against the demonic, improved defences against Divinity, aptitude for weapons of the holy attribute and others. Also, this skills makes possible to invoke the Noble Phantasm, Joyeuse Ordre.

Prana Burst (Light)
A subspecies of Prana Burst that is allowed only to saints・holy maidens・holy knights. It is endowed with advantage towards the evil aligned.

Travel on Noble Path(1)
A self-admonition type skill that displays its effects by having the user stick to the attitude of wanting to be a king. It contributes to the improvement of a portion of his parameters, but he ends up weakening upon taking a conduct that violates that noble path(1). In Charlemagne's case, this means that he "gets weakened when doing something lame" and that "some sort of gauge rises when doing things that he finds cool".

(1) can also be translated as "kingship", "just rule" or [ur=[URL="http://www.dictionary.com/browse/royal-road]royal"]| Define at Dictionary.com[/URL] road[/url]
 
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Random Extella bits

Both Lancelot and Darius shows up in 1 stage, being sent by Karl cuz they got virus-ed. After we defeated them Karl decided to send Li and after Li was defeated he sent Scathach.

Liz was with Archimedes the whole time, both are solo servants. She friendly with him and seems to think of him as one of the potential idol producers, and whenever Archie hears her calling out to him he dies a little more inside lmfao. They were staying at Tamamo's old base Heiankyou.
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Fate/Extella Story and Lore (free range spoilers) - Page 156


Joyeuse entry


It does not appear in history books and chronicles, a fame sword mentioned in various chanson de geste. It appeared in "Song of Roland" where it is a peerless sword. Its colors changes 30 times a day. In addition, it is said that the head of the holy lance Longinus is stored inside its pommel as an artifact. The name means "merry, joy" in French.
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Fate/Extella Story and Lore (free range spoilers) - Page 157



How Charles smooth talked to Nero into letting him take a stroll with Hakuno, Charles' reacting to Astolfo's choice of clothing, Arjuna and Karma's conversation, and etc.Hmm, wait...the flashback CGs had Astolfo already cross-dressing when Charles was alive. I guess that's just an inconsistency btw the story and the illustration

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Artoria criticized Charles for his laid back behavior, and even outright branded him as 'another troublesome king' on par with Gil and Iskandar...She also berated Charles for crafting a pun out of his country's name somethingsomething not befitting a king. Has this somehow become her underlined character trait? Come on, Artoria...
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Fate/Extella Story and Lore (free range spoilers) - Page 155




Well, the dialogue happened in a skit so I suppose that it's not meant to be taken seriously.......? Still got me a light sigh though.
Artoria eventually concluded that she should coach Charles in an 'intensive' 72-hours training, to which Charles quickly asked Hakuno to run away with him.

Here's the screenshot. Perhaps my quick summary came off a little stronger than what's actually being said;
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Fate/Extella Story and Lore (free range spoilers) - Page 156



After watching Karl's My Room Lines again, there's another nod to IRL Karl in which he wants to wear a more relaxing, common clothes in My Room. Even so far questioning why would he still need to maintain King's dignity here.

I quite like these reference
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Fate/Extella Story and Lore (free range spoilers) - Page 156


So beyond being chuuni and awesome, does Charles exhibit any traits of Karl and likewise?


His My Room Lines has him goes all protagonist, KAKKOII, and zero nod to historical Karl. Hm, he's cheery like Astolfo I suppose.

Really wouldn't recognize him as Charlemagne if he doesn't name himself tbh.

He might be different in the story, but I haven't read it so can't really say.
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Fate/Extella Story and Lore (free range spoilers) - Page 156
 
Karl's Stats, skills and NP
Str: B. MGI: C
End: A+ LCK: A+
Agi: C. NP: A+
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His first 3 skills (MR EX, True Name Discerment C, God's Resolution A) are all Ruler class skills so you don't have to find descriptions but maybe his has some extra lines.
His other skills are: Charisma B, Great Emperor Privilege A+ (variation of imperial priv???), Liturgical Reform A, Holy King A.

- Joyeuse description: 1st NP. The NP shares between Karl and Charlemagne, but Karl cannot showcase its tru value due to him living in reality. (It's basically a reverse of Charle's descriptions)

- Carolus Patricius description: 2nd NP. Automatic enlarging gigantic stronghold. This includes the armor that covers Karl's digital frame and the territory of the Mobile Holy City. Originally Patricius is the title given to the guardians of Rome and Italy.

- Carolus Patricius Auctoritas: 3rd NP, Carolus Patricius's trump card. Turn the gigantic stronghold into attack form, sweeping all enemies at once.

- Carolus Patricius Dimitte: 4th NP. Also known as Last Judgment (Ultimu Propater). By obtaining power from the Alien Key (Monolith), it is possible to assimilate not only Servants but all digital bodies in SE.RA.PH. However in this case about 60% can be fully assimilated, while the remaining 40% cannot maintain their senses.
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Fate/Extella Story and Lore (free range spoilers) - Page 170

Minor Astolfo stuff
Besides, it is implied that up till meeting with monolith, Karl's life was pretty much the same as Charles. That was the turning point of his life, and Karl mentioned that the Astoflo he knows is not a boy-girl.
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So Karl is pretty pissed his loyal retainers are modified as a guy running around naked and a cross-dresser. Not like he have a problem with people doing it, but have problems with spreading of rumors of his retainers.
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Charles was also surprised by Astolfo's current choice of clothing ("Daddy's feeling so shameful that he's gonna cry!"). Later he admitted that the most shocking of all was that Astolfo actually looked good in that skirt lol. A small point to note though, Astolfo said that there's a reason why (as an HS) he appeared to dress like this. I can't remember if Apocrypha LN already touched on this subject other than Astolfo saying he loved wearing skirts coz it felt breezy...
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Fate/Extella Story and Lore (free range spoilers) - Page 168

Explanation for Karls skills and NP's
Okay, from Iceblade:

1st skill is roughly name Emperor's Privilege an innate skill Karl has. It is just another name for Imperial Privilege.

2nd skill is Ceremonial Reformation which increases the quality and abilities of groups and lands under him. Skill was gained from his work in unifying and reforming Europe, leading the cultural and Economical development of the land.

3rd skill is roughly translate as Holy King, giving him advantage against those with demon traits and divinity whom are not gained from being a saint.

NP 1 is Joyeuse which only Charles can release its true power. Since Charles can deal with Karna's NP without dying, it should be a very powerful NP.

NP 2 is Karl's Mobile Castle which is very durable since it requires big guns like Arjuna's NP and Tear Drop Photon Ray to destroy the cannons mounted on the fortress. Nero admits that Rome has no such thing and Charles compared it to Semi's Hanging Gardens. Karl's castle is stronger than Charles and can provide mana for other servants.

NP 3 is Karl's Giant Mecha who can fight top servants (route 3 has Karna, Arjuna, Altera and Gawain dealing with it ) alone. The servants are drained to the point of no longer able to fight after defeating the mecha.

NP 4 is the ultimate brainwashing which Karl claims can bring salvation while Altera claims it will destroy human foundations. Even servants will be turned after long exposure.
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Fate/Extella Story and Lore (free range spoilers) - Page 172
 
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So, preliminary information on the Imperial City Grail War:
  • The setting is referred to by da Vinci as "something resembling a Singularity," which Guda got trapped within during a standard rayshift. Ergo, Chaldea Headquarters is still intact, and therefore the story takes place in December 2017 or earlier, prior to the Lostbelt Prologue.

  • The world within the "Singularity" comprises only of the Imperial City of Tokyo, and no other outlying regions. The date is Imperial Calendar 2605, June.

  • Inhabitants of the Imperial City, regardless of whether they're human or Servant, are incapable of exiting the City under their own power.

  • A man referred to as Brigadier / Major General Amami is in charge of a military intelligence bureau apparently dedicated to monitoring the progress of the War. However, he has some sort of personal connection with Nobunaga.

  • Within the context of the "Singularity," the Grail War is an event that regularly repeats. The current repetition count is unknown, but the official designation includes only a single kanji to represent the number. Ergo, this would likely place the count under 11, or a power of 10.

  • Unlike standard Grail Wars, there are no Masters in play; and a preliminary round is implemented wherein more than seven Servants battle to claim the seven standard Class Seats. Once a Seat is properly claimed, the claimant is "recognized" by the Grail as one of the seven official participants in the War, and granted with a territory referred to as a Redline -- along with support from the Grail. Nobunaga, the claimant of the Class Seat of Archer, was granted the power to summon Nobus; and the power to have a fully charged NP every turn.

  • Sakamoto Ryouma is a Rider within the War. He gives that the boundaries of Redlines are to some extent inviolate; but that due to the circumstances of his class, he's able to flaunt the boundaries to a degree.

  • Ryouma's "assistant" is named O-Ryo, and is implied to be a dragon.

  • The beginning of the plot is a jokey "Epilogue" which takes place in Chaldea, wherein it's given that Okita Alter emerged of a showdown between Okita (standard) and Nobunaga. In the backstory, Nobunaga apparently killed the entire surviving cast of Gudaguda Meiji Revolution -- including Guda -- during some sort of Grail War wherein Nobunaga hoped to use the Grail to overwrite the History of Man with the History of Nobu. However, it's hard to say how seriously this should be taken.

  • When Okita Alter shows up, she's level 1. Meanwhile, Nobu is using Camelot-style gimmicks (the blessings of the Grail).
 
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Oh yeah Okita Alter is a countet guardian if her bond ce is anything to go by

Why does humanity's desire of survival keeps gyaruing its guardians?
 
fallacies said:
A man referred to as Brigadier / Major General Amami is in charge of a military intelligence bureau apparently dedicated to monitoring the progress of the War. However, he apparently has some sort of personal connection with Nobunaga.
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I presume you know this, but I've seen several theories that
he's Akechi Mitsuhide.
 
Lostbelt 1 chapter 16 summary.



Chapter 17 too.



EDIT: And chapter 18 too, the summary process has surged back to life.

 
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Okada Izou, as of around Chapter 5:
  • He's one of the Assassins involved in the Imperial City Grail War, though it hasn't been given that he's in fact the claimant to the Seat of the Assassin.

  • According to him, Assassins of the Imperial City are granted the ability to correctly discern the location of opponents.

  • He has a gripe against Sakamoto Ryouma, as Sakamoto's actions in life apparently led to his execution. However, when Sakamoto allows Izou to strike him down without defending himself, Izou refrains from committing to a lethal slash -- delivering instead only a shallow cut. Sakamoto comments that Izou never intended to actually kill him, despite professing otherwise, and generally acting like a lunatic. That is, if Izou wanted to kill him, he'd be dead. Izou is basically a male tsundere.

  • After some talk, Izou "reluctantly" agrees for the time being to assist Sakamoto in his plan to end the Grail War, and to save the citizens of the Imperial City. Specifically, Sakamoto himself professes to have no designs upon the Grail; and Izou's primary reason for involvement is apparently defeat Okita (Standard) -- possibly the recognized claimant to the Seat of the Saber. Ergo, there is no conflict purpose-wise at this point, unless Izou actually has a wish for the Grail that he hasn't voiced.

  • Agreeing to split up forces, Izou acts as Guda's bodyguard in an endeavor to defeat the claimant to the Seat of the Lancer. During idle conversation, it's revealed that he's childhood friends with Sakamoto, having grown up in the same town.

  • The Seat of the Lancer was defeated by Li Shuwen prior to Guda and Izou's arrival. Izou challenges Li Shuwen to a one on one match, but is defeated to his own surprise. He's confused, because he was renowned as a genius of the blade; and it's inconceivable to him that he'd be so easily bested. Angered, he accuses Li of cheating by the use of the Blessings of the Grail as the new claimant to the Seat of the Lancer -- but this isn't the case.

    Calmly, Li replies that in terms of natural talent, it's perhaps the case that Izou exceeds him -- but there's more to martial arts than talent granted of birth. Li himself only came to comprehend this later in life. He correctly guesses that Izou was in fact cut down in the prime of his youth, before he could learn of this.

  • After Li Shuwen is defeated, he states to Izou before he dies that the distance between his spear and Izou's sword is as thin as a mere sheet of paper -- but that that divide is nothing to be scoffed at. He encourages Izou to exceed his own limits.

  • Apparently shaken that Li would offer such words, Izou announces to Guda that their temporary contract is concluded as of Lancer's defeat, and moodily takes his leave.
As clarification to my previous post, the "Epilogue" Prologue is as of present time seemingly disconnected from the rest of the story, given that it happens at Chaldea at some unspecified point in time, and involves Okita transforming into Okita Alter after she witnesses Guda's death by Nobu's hand in some exaggeratedly dramatic Grail War showdown.

Comparatively, the storyline proper involves Guda turning up in Tokyo during a rayshift, and encountering Okita Alter immediately after arrival. Sometime later, normal Okita appears as a separate Servant.
 
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