It isn't a major revelation or anything, but as Kyugan recently released a fic that makes use of it as a title, I thought that it might be worthwhile to mention as trivia that Kiritsugu's Noble Phantasm, "Chronos Rose / Gather Ye Rosebuds While Ye May" (which, by the way, is mistranslated in the Wikia) is actually named after the first line of a poem titled "To the Virgins, To Make Much of Time" by the 17th century poet, Robert Herrick.

As the title straightforwardly indicates, the poem is specifically addressed to virgins, and beseeches them to find a partner and get married while they're still young and good-looking. Therefore, the word "rosebud" was likely intended to bear the obvious connotations ... ?

Kiritsugu's sneaking up behind opponents, and "gathering their rosebuds" ...
 
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Randomly, even though there's a Reddit version somewhere:
6th Singularity - 23 - 4 - Part A (JP / EN) said:
ホームズHolmes

獅子王が持つ聖槍。
The Holy Lance borne by the King of Lions.
これがなんであるかは……
As to why it is that such a thing exists ...
ベディヴィエール卿。
Sir Bedivere.
貴方はどこまで知っているのです?
To what extent are you familiar with it?

ベディヴィエールBedivere

詳しくは知りません。
I know not of the specifics.
王は聖剣の他に幾つかの宝を持っていました。
Aside the Holy Sword, the King bears a number of treasures.
聖槍ロンゴミニアドもその一つ。
The Holy Lance Rhongomyniad is but one amongst them, likewise;
円卓の騎士でもその詳細は聞かされていないのです。
but even the Knights of the Round are not privy to details.
ただ、マーリンはあれを「最果ての塔」と言っていました。
Merlin, however, once referred to it as 「the Tower of the End」 --
ブリテン島より遙か西の海にそびえる光の柱。
a pillar of light that arises of the Western Seas, far distant from the Isle of Britain.
水平線の彼方、世界の果てに立つ塔だと。
At the far shore beyond the horizon, he spoke, it is the tower that stands at the edge of the World.

三蔵Sanzou

塔?
A tower?
でも槍なんでしょう?
But isn't it a lance?
そりゃあどっちも長細いけど……どっちなの?
Well, I suppose both of them are long and thin ... but, which is it?

ベディヴィエールBedivere

いえ、これが私にもよくは……
Er, I'm likewise unable to make heads or tails of it ...
ホームズ殿?
Mister Holmes?


ホームズHolmes

「聖槍は二つある」のです、ミス・三蔵。
「The Holy Lance is as two」, Miss Sanzou.
一つはこの世界を貫いている巨大な塔。
One would be as the great Tower that permeates this World itself --
これは聖槍の在り方がカタチになったもの。
becoming as the form by which the Lance's manner of existence is expressed.
「聖槍は健在なり」と我々に示したものです。
It is that which declares to us that 「the Holy Lance endures」.
実際に塔としてあるようですが、人間には辿り着けない。
And though indeed it does exist as a tower, it appears, Man cannot upon it arrive;
なにしろ『世界の果て』にあるものだ。
for, indeed, it stands extant at 『the End of the World』;
果てには永遠に辿り着けない。
and the End can forever not be reached.
塔は世界の果てにそびえながら、
And because the Tower emerges as of the End of the World,
人界のすべてを見通し、見守っている。
it unto exhaustion apprehends the whole of the Human Realm -- standing vigilant.

俵藤太Tawara Touta

ふむ、霊験あらたかな見晴らしの塔という事か。
Fumu. A fabulous tower of miracles, is it?

ホームズHolmes

そしてもう一つは獅子王が持つ槍。
The other of the two would be the Lance borne by the King of Lions.
これはその塔が地上に落とした影のようなもの。
This would be akin to the shadow cast by the Tower upon the surface of the earth.
塔の能力、「権能」(けんのう)をそのまま使える個人兵装、という事らしい。
It could perhaps be called as the capabilities of the Tower -- the 「Authority」 of such -- wielded as is in the capacity of a personal armament.

マシュMashu

塔が本体で槍は子機、という事でしょうか……?
In other words, the Tower is the primary existence, and the Lance is a Terminal ... ?

ホームズHolmes

実にいい喩(たと)えだ、ミス・キリエライト。
A fitting comparison indeed, Miss Kyrielight.
塔は世界の果てに在り続けるものであり、
The Tower is that which stands in perpetuity at the End of the World,
槍は塔の管理者が持ち続ける武器である。
and the Lance is the weapon borne in perpetuity by the Tower's Administrator.
問題は『塔』がなぜ星に刺さっているか、という点だ。
The issue to take note of, however, is why it is that the 『Tower』 pierces the Planet.
我々の世界……人間の世界はこの惑星の表層に貼られた一枚の「敷物」(テクスチャー)にすぎない、という考えがある。
Our World ... the World of Man is to this planetary body nothing but a layer of 「Fabric」 / 「Texture」 affixed to its surface -- or so gives a certain theory.
その惑星において覇権を握った知的生命体の認識……
The apprehensions (認識, ninshiki, "awareness / comprehension / perception") of the intelligent species that holds primacy upon this planet ...
あえて言うなら物理法則か。
or what could perhaps be called the Laws of Physics?
この物理法則によって成り立つ敷物が我々の世界だ。
This World of ours is but the Texture established of these Laws.
これが剥がれないように惑星に縫い付けているもの。
As to that which sutures this to the surface of the planet, that it cannot come unaffixed --
それが『最果ての塔』と呼ばれる現象らしい。
such would appear to be the phenomenon called as 『the Tower of the End』.
この『塔』は何もブリテンに限った話ではない。
This 『Tower』 is not a matter strictly confined to Britain.
世界に点在し、何本もあるものだ。
Scattered across the World, any number of such exist.
そのうち一本が獅子王の持つ聖槍なのだろうね。
Of these, one is perhaps the Holy Lance wielded by the King of Lions.
Or, for easier reading:
6th Singularity - 23 - 4 - Part A (EN) said:
Holmes

The Holy Lance borne by the King of Lions.
As to why it is that such a thing exists ...
Sir Bedivere.
To what extent are you familiar with it?

Bedivere

I know not of the specifics.
Aside the Holy Sword, the King bears a number of treasures.
The Holy Lance Rhongomyniad is but one amongst them, likewise;
but even the Knights of the Round are not privy to details.
Merlin, however, once referred to it as 「the Tower of the End」 --
a pillar of light that arises of the Western Seas, far distant from the Isle of Britain.
At the far shore beyond the horizon, he spoke, it is the tower that stands at the edge of the World.

Sanzou

A tower?
But isn't it a lance?
Well, I suppose both of them are long and thin ... but, which is it?

Bedivere

Er, I'm likewise unable to make heads or tails of it ...
Mister Holmes?


Holmes

「The Holy Lance is as two」, Miss Sanzou.
One would be as the great Tower that permeates this World itself --
becoming as the form by which the Lance's manner of existence is expressed.
It is that which declares to us that 「the Holy Lance endures」.
And though indeed it does exist as a tower, it appears, Man cannot upon it arrive;
for, indeed, it stands extant at 『the End of the World』;
and the End can forever not be reached.
And because the Tower emerges as of the End of the World,
it unto exhaustion apprehends the whole of the Human Realm -- standing vigilant.

Tawara Touta

Fumu. A fabulous tower of miracles, is it?

Holmes

The other of the two would be the Lance borne by the King of Lions.
This would be akin to the shadow cast by the Tower upon the surface of the earth.
It could perhaps be called as the capabilities of the Tower -- the 「Authority」 of such -- wielded as is in the capacity of a personal armament.

Mashu

In other words, the Tower is the primary existence, and the Lance is a Terminal ... ?

Holmes

A fitting comparison indeed, Miss Kyrielight.
The Tower is that which stands in perpetuity at the End of the World,
and the Lance is the weapon borne in perpetuity by the Tower's Administrator.
The issue to take note of, however, is why it is that the 『Tower』 pierces the Planet.
Our World ... the World of Man is to this planetary body nothing but a layer of 「Fabric」 / 「Texture」 affixed to its surface -- or so gives a certain theory.
The apprehensions of the intelligent species that holds primacy upon this planet ...
or what could perhaps be called the Laws of Physics?
This World of ours is but the Texture established of these Laws.
As to that which sutures this to the surface of the planet, that it cannot come unaffixed --
such would appear to be the phenomenon called as 『the Tower of the End』.
This 『Tower』 is not a matter strictly confined to Britain.
Scattered across the World, any number of such exist.
Of these, one is perhaps the Holy Lance wielded by the King of Lions.
 
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I mean Rin is Ishtar's vessel

Ishtar is a princess,got jailed by Eresh and get along with animals (a tad too much if Gil has anything too say)

So yeah Sumerian Disney Time!
 
So the english dub of HEavens Feel last night. Was good, but not as perfect as the original Japanese in my opinion. I will say this that Kyle McCarley blew it out of the park for me as Shinji. Same with Cristina Vee as Sakura.

Which makes me wonder, have we seen Japanese VAs compliment english ones? Like I remember one time I heard Jun Fukuyama complimenting the hell out of JYB for his performance as Lelouch in Code Geass, saying he did a better job than he did.
 
On Charlemagne and Karl and the difference between them

What I said is from the last route. And yes Charlemagne is not a dream of Karl, he is a fantasy story being added to the real Karl's record on the throne, creating the confusion between them. Basically it works like this:
- Karl the Great is real. He united Europe and so on, he also met Altera when he was younger.
- Charlemagne is a fictional character base on young Karl.
- In the throne of heroes, the records Karl is merged with fantasy stories about him aka Charles.
- Because of this fusion, Charles has some experience of Karl, the experience of young Karl meeting Altera and saw the eye. Because of this fusion, Karl also has some adventure stuffs originated from Charles stories, which he claimed to be a dream.

Fate/Extella Story and Lore (free range spoilers) - Page 147
 
So I finally got around to watching Fate Apocrypha.

Basically throughout the whole series I was under the impression that Shirou Kotomine was the bad guy. I mean he drugged his allies and stole their servants, he constantly talks about his desire to 'save humanity' while never explaining just what that entails (I assumed it would be something suitably creepy) and just generally acts really sketchy.

Then right at the end we finally see him make his wish. It's not a magic lobotomy to enforce happiness, or some bizarre and eostoric wish that doesn't make any sense. He just wishes for everyone to be immortal. Which honestly sounds like a pretty nice and benign wish.
Getting old? fixed.
Sick? Fixed.
Injured? No problem.

It to looks like he simply wants to save people from their human frailties. Sound like a good thing even before you take into account the murderous vampires, crazy demons and the fact the Earth itself wants to kill everyone and so having an edge is very much a good thing.

Then Sieg turns up and kills Shirou and then make a wish to turn himself into an immortal dragon (and steal humanities immortality, the greedy bastard) and proceeds to enjoy his immortality with his girlfriend Jean (who's also immortal) and they go off to have adventures together.

Is there something weird with the translation or did it turn out that Sieg and Jean are actually the surprise bad guys who take humanities immortality while enjoying their own? Hell Sieg literally turns into Fafnir, a symbol of being a greedy bastard.


Now I get that they do it because apparently if humans get immortality they'll become boring or something (not that this is really explained and doesn't make much sense, I'd expect people to become more adventurous if they could so stupid shit without consequences) but to instead replace it with a wish for keeping the status quo for the world but getting all the benefits themselves. It just makes them look like assholes.
 
So I finally got around to watching Fate Apocrypha.

Basically throughout the whole series I was under the impression that Shirou Kotomine was the bad guy. I mean he drugged his allies and stole their servants, he constantly talks about his desire to 'save humanity' while never explaining just what that entails (I assumed it would be something suitably creepy) and just generally acts really sketchy.

Then right at the end we finally see him make his wish. It's not a magic lobotomy to enforce happiness, or some bizarre and eostoric wish that doesn't make any sense. He just wishes for everyone to be immortal. Which honestly sounds like a pretty nice and benign wish.
Getting old? fixed.
Sick? Fixed.
Injured? No problem.

It to looks like he simply wants to save people from their human frailties. Sound like a good thing even before you take into account the murderous vampires, crazy demons and the fact the Earth itself wants to kill everyone and so having an edge is very much a good thing.

Then Sieg turns up and kills Shirou and then make a wish to turn himself into an immortal dragon (and steal humanities immortality, the greedy bastard) and proceeds to enjoy his immortality with his girlfriend Jean (who's also immortal) and they go off to have adventures together.

Is there something weird with the translation or did it turn out that Sieg and Jean are actually the surprise bad guys who take humanities immortality while enjoying their own? Hell Sieg literally turns into Fafnir, a symbol of being a greedy bastard.


Now I get that they do it because apparently if humans get immortality they'll become boring or something (not that this is really explained and doesn't make much sense, I'd expect people to become more adventurous if they could so stupid shit without consequences) but to instead replace it with a wish for keeping the status quo for the world but getting all the benefits themselves. It just makes them look like assholes.
Immortal/super happy humanity = no progress = timeline cut= everyone dies anyway
 
So I finally got around to watching Fate Apocrypha.

Basically throughout the whole series I was under the impression that Shirou Kotomine was the bad guy. I mean he drugged his allies and stole their servants, he constantly talks about his desire to 'save humanity' while never explaining just what that entails (I assumed it would be something suitably creepy) and just generally acts really sketchy.

Then right at the end we finally see him make his wish. It's not a magic lobotomy to enforce happiness, or some bizarre and eostoric wish that doesn't make any sense. He just wishes for everyone to be immortal. Which honestly sounds like a pretty nice and benign wish.
Getting old? fixed.
Sick? Fixed.
Injured? No problem.

It to looks like he simply wants to save people from their human frailties. Sound like a good thing even before you take into account the murderous vampires, crazy demons and the fact the Earth itself wants to kill everyone and so having an edge is very much a good thing.

Then Sieg turns up and kills Shirou and then make a wish to turn himself into an immortal dragon (and steal humanities immortality, the greedy bastard) and proceeds to enjoy his immortality with his girlfriend Jean (who's also immortal) and they go off to have adventures together.

Is there something weird with the translation or did it turn out that Sieg and Jean are actually the surprise bad guys who take humanities immortality while enjoying their own? Hell Sieg literally turns into Fafnir, a symbol of being a greedy bastard.


Now I get that they do it because apparently if humans get immortality they'll become boring or something (not that this is really explained and doesn't make much sense, I'd expect people to become more adventurous if they could so stupid shit without consequences) but to instead replace it with a wish for keeping the status quo for the world but getting all the benefits themselves. It just makes them look like assholes.

Immortal/super happy humanity = no progress = timeline cut= everyone dies anyway
IIRC it's mentioned that the humans would have all basically become spirits, rather than actual normal, physical people with immortality. That was the reason for the stagnation, AFAIK.


And Joan is dead, so it's not like she's enjoying immortality. Sieg is, sure, but Joan of Arc had to die to even show up and meet Sieg in the first place.
 
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IIRC it's mentioned that the humans would have all basically become spirits, rather than actual normal, physical people with immortality. That was the reason for the stagnation, AFAIK.


And Joan is dead, so it's not like she's enjoying immortality. Sieg is, sure, but Joan of Arc had to die to even show up and meet Sieg in the first place.

Is it really "dead" when you get to hang out at the opposite end of the world or in the throne instead of being tossed into the great spiritual recycling machine with everyone else?
 
So I finally got around to watching Fate Apocrypha.

Basically throughout the whole series I was under the impression that Shirou Kotomine was the bad guy. I mean he drugged his allies and stole their servants, he constantly talks about his desire to 'save humanity' while never explaining just what that entails (I assumed it would be something suitably creepy) and just generally acts really sketchy.

Then right at the end we finally see him make his wish. It's not a magic lobotomy to enforce happiness, or some bizarre and eostoric wish that doesn't make any sense. He just wishes for everyone to be immortal. Which honestly sounds like a pretty nice and benign wish.
Getting old? fixed.
Sick? Fixed.
Injured? No problem.

It to looks like he simply wants to save people from their human frailties. Sound like a good thing even before you take into account the murderous vampires, crazy demons and the fact the Earth itself wants to kill everyone and so having an edge is very much a good thing.

Then Sieg turns up and kills Shirou and then make a wish to turn himself into an immortal dragon (and steal humanities immortality, the greedy bastard) and proceeds to enjoy his immortality with his girlfriend Jean (who's also immortal) and they go off to have adventures together.

Is there something weird with the translation or did it turn out that Sieg and Jean are actually the surprise bad guys who take humanities immortality while enjoying their own? Hell Sieg literally turns into Fafnir, a symbol of being a greedy bastard.


Now I get that they do it because apparently if humans get immortality they'll become boring or something (not that this is really explained and doesn't make much sense, I'd expect people to become more adventurous if they could so stupid shit without consequences) but to instead replace it with a wish for keeping the status quo for the world but getting all the benefits themselves. It just makes them look like assholes.
I remember Justeaze having some line or another about how the form Amakusa was trying to uplift humanity into was like, one Good End possibility but the act of uplifting humanity into that state all at once was going to fuck up the transition and leave them in shock and cause them to stagnate as a species. Like slicing open a coccoon to let the butterfly out too early so it's really just half a caterpillar and some mush.

Equally, the reason Sieg makes a wish at all is because the Greater Grail is still enacting Amakusa's wish and he needs to use up its energies to make it safe. Seeing his lack of Dead Count Seals beginning to turn him into a dragon (and probably Amakusa's wish tbh) is what gave him the idea to waste the wish on accelerating it + making sure it worked properly and then stealing the Grail so nobody else could use it to try and fuck up humanity again and also because he is a massive massive scalie

Also just on a personal note I don't get these people that come out of the woodwork criticising fiction for not giving humanity immortality because imo immortality sounds fucking awful and I have no problem believing Justeaze when she says it'd spell doom for the human race even without the whole "and now you are goast" part.
 
Immortal/super happy humanity = no progress = timeline cut= everyone dies anyway
So basically due to bizarre nasu-verse metaphysics if humans are immortal they can't progress (because reasons) and also the multi-verse is out to get you so if you fail your performance review you get erased from reality.

That's pretty grim-dark. At least if I'm understanding this right.

IIRC it's mentioned that the humans would have all basically become spirits, rather than actual normal, physical people with immortality. That was the reason for the stagnation, AFAIK.


And Joan is dead, so it's not like she's enjoying immortality. Sieg is, sure, but Joan of Arc had to die to even show up and meet Sieg in the first place.
I'm pretty sure the whole point of the third magic is that you get a materialized (thus physical) soul which is immortal and probably has vaguely defined magic powers. It's why it's so desirable and awesome. If you were stuck as a spirit that couldn't do anything I agree that would be super lame and Shirou's a bad guy for wanting that lameness to happen.

Admittedly it's been a while since I looked into the heaven's feel so I could be wrong.

Also since we clearly see Joan hanging out with Sieg and declaring her love and stuff (so her memories and personality and body and everything are completely in tact) she's pretty obviously not dead. At least not in anyway I'd define dead.

Edit:

Basically it's a matter of thematics. Sieg wishes himself immortal and get away with it with no consequences, he's not trapped in the form of a dragon, he's not separated form his girlfriend, he seems to get away with it. So if it's fine for Sieg why isn't it fine for Joe the accountant?
 
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So basically due to bizarre nasu-verse metaphysics if humans are immortal they can't progress (because reasons) and also the multi-verse is out to get you so if you fail your performance review you get erased from reality.

That's pretty grim-dark. At least if I'm understanding this right.


I'm pretty sure the whole point of the third magic is that you get a materialized (thus physical) soul which is immortal and probably has vaguely defined magic powers. It's why it's so desirable and awesome. If you were stuck as a spirit that couldn't do anything I agree that would be super lame and Shirou's a bad guy for wanting that lameness to happen.

Admittedly it's been a while since I looked into the heaven's feel so I could be wrong.

Also since we clearly see Joan hanging out with Sieg and declaring her love and stuff (so her memories and personality and body and everything are completely in tact) she's pretty obviously not dead. At least not in anyway I'd define dead.
Basically as I understand it, you can't cheat your way to it. So people naturally developing towards 'immortality' is fine, but just wishing for it is bad.
 
So basically due to bizarre nasu-verse metaphysics if humans are immortal they can't progress (because reasons) and also the multi-verse is out to get you so if you fail your performance review you get erased from reality.

That's pretty grim-dark. At least if I'm understanding this right.
Not immortality alone, there are immortals in Nasu that clearly progress in their beliefs and values and such, but stagnation in specific causes that time line to be pruned because the thing that does it is trying to engineer successful human time lines.

I'm pretty sure the whole point of the third magic is that you get a materialized (thus physical) soul which is immortal and probably has vaguely defined magic powers. It's why it's so desirable and awesome. If you were stuck as a spirit that couldn't do anything I agree that would be super lame and Shirou's a bad guy for wanting that lameness to happen.

Admittedly it's been a while since I looked into the heaven's feel so I could be wrong.

Also since we clearly see Joan hanging out with Sieg and declaring her love and stuff (so her memories and personality and body and everything are completely in tact) she's pretty obviously not dead. At least not in anyway I'd define dead.
Basically as I understand it, you can't cheat your way to it. So people naturally developing towards 'immortality' is fine, but just wishing for it is bad.

Joan is dead, because she died in the 100 years war. However, the Throne collects all memories from life, and from temporary incarnations during summonings as a Servant. Thus she clearly at one point leaves the throne and finds Sieg. She is dead, the Throne just decided that she was important enough in history to pull her spiritual essence out of the cycle of reincarnation for use as a possible weapon to defend humanity (IIRC that last point about why the Throne collects things).

Shirou Amakusa specifically says that humans will lose survival instincts, and then no longer have bodies. On top of that, Shirou's entire plan rests on the belief that humans can't really be good on their own, it's basically him forcibly stripping away everyone of their physical bodies, meaning future generations cease to exist. Joan's point was that his "salvation" for humans is basically causing an end to all strivings from people and setting them at a specific population for eternity. That's kind of monstrous when you think about it, like would you want to be yanked out of your body one day and lose all elements of what some dude considers "survival instincts" from your personality?

Shirou's plan takes agency from every human in existence, violates their body and very being, and forces them to live in a way he considers perfect. It's wrong because it's basically mental and physical violation on a global level.

EDIT: And then Joan points out that if people become ok with the all powerful Japanese bishonen in the sky telling them what is correct, they'll never strive for anything unless said all powerful bishonen Japanese dude in the sky tells them to. And that kind of makes a mockery of all the people who have worked to make the world a better place.

Shirou also says he will remove all pain. That alone radically alters humanity to something unrecognizable.


EDIT2: I forgot Gilles redemption and God (possibly Alaya) just coming in and fixing things.

EDIT the last: Yeah, Justeaze Einzbern/the Grail straight up says that if Shirou's wish happens, humanity will stagnate because there will be nothing to achieve or any drive to explore, since they will have everything right at their fingertips
 
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