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Type Moon General

On a side note, with regards to Tesla... I've never really found him all that annoying?

I mean, he's kind of a fun character. I've always liked the Mad Scientist archetype. And sure, he didn't really invent "control of electricity", or even come close - but he's just so much more fun a character to give that credit to than, Iunno, Galvani or Maxwell, who were fairly stuffy academic types compared to Mr. Apocalypse Machine.

Could he have used a bit more historical footnootes? Sure. Laser pigeons would've been great. But making Tesla a Servant is just a really fun choice, and I don't have a problem with it.

And then once you give him electricity... that bit is just plain deserved. Lightning has always been the domain of the highest of gods; lightning is the weapon of Zeus, it's identified with holiness in Japanese culture, it's the spark of genius in the Kabbalah. If you grant that "Tesla invented electricity", then of course electricity is a bullshit EX-ranked Anti-Divine Noble Phantasm. Bringing lightning down to science and magecraft is absolutely something worthy of that rank.

So I mean. Sure, it's not historically accurate. But it's so much more fun this way than summoning, I dunno. "The Unknown Physicist," a nameless collection of academics.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
But it's so much more fun this way than summoning, I dunno. "The Unknown Physicist," a nameless collection of academics.
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Alternatively:

-Make a sheet that does collect all these academics
-Throw in some Mad Scientist Wraith stuff, though maybe not to the annoying degree
-Throw Frankenstein into the mix. If you're crediting this Servant with bringing Lightning down to mankinds control, then having a reference to A Modern Prometheus is kinda fitting.

If only there was a brave and handsome skeleton who has had a sheet that's exactly like this hanging around for months now...
 
linkhyrule5 said:
On a side note, with regards to Tesla... I've never really found him all that annoying?

I mean, he's kind of a fun character. I've always liked the Mad Scientist archetype. And sure, he didn't really invent "control of electricity", or even come close - but he's just so much more fun a character to give that credit to than, Iunno, Galvani or Maxwell, who were fairly stuffy academic types compared to Mr. Apocalypse Machine.

Could he have used a bit more historical footnootes? Sure. Laser pigeons would've been great. But making Tesla a Servant is just a really fun choice, and I don't have a problem with it.

And then once you give him electricity... that bit is just plain deserved. Lightning has always been the domain of the highest of gods; lightning is the weapon of Zeus, it's identified with holiness in Japanese culture, it's the spark of genius in the Kabbalah. If you grant that "Tesla invented electricity", then of course electricity is a bullshit EX-ranked Anti-Divine Noble Phantasm. Bringing lightning down to science and magecraft is absolutely something worthy of that rank.

So I mean. Sure, it's not historically accurate. But it's so much more fun this way than summoning, I dunno. "The Unknown Physicist," a nameless collection of academics.
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I feel like at this point people are just less willing to tolerate wank that comes from Sakurai. I know I'm a hell of a lot less tolerant with her than I am with, say, Nasu or Narita.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
Yeah, fair enough. Heavens know I know the feeling with, say, the Exalted authors. >.>
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It also doesn't help that I think Sakurai has a noted fondness for Tesla and has done a VN with him before GO, so it's also annoying that rather than wanking him because it's (arguably, if you consider him the sole creator/discoverer/guy who made it possible to use electricity as GO seems to) deserved, he's wanked because Sakurai likes him.
 
Always the hard questions …

I colored the relevant bit (and the Solomon stuff, can't forget about him).
fallacies said:
b) True Demons / Incarnated Demons

Higher-order entities referred to as "True Demons" (真性悪魔), whose existences aren't necessarily generated of or dependent upon humanity's wishes / curses for survival; who likely predated human civilization. They may or may not be beings that originated of higher-order realities or other universes. Also referred to as Incarnated / Enfleshed Demons (受肉した魔), though their relationship with victims of Demonic possession isn't explicated upon; they themselves are known to be capable of possessing living organisms.​

Much like generic Demons, they arise of / are based within the 6th Imaginary Aspect. Fuyuki Wiki and Tsukihime Lab give that as their entire existence functions so as to draw in distortions, "they do not possess the quasi-nervous Circuits that human magi require" (魔術師が持つような後付の擬似神経である魔術回路を持たない), and they're capable of "realizing thaumaturgy of a higher order than humans" (人間より高度な魔術を行使する事が可能). It's said that True Demons are capable of growing to the extent of concealing their spiritual presence entirely during the act of possession (Lab: 真性の悪魔は極力霊障を抑えて育ちきるまで巧妙にその事実を隠蔽する); this is possibly the same claim as that regarding the capacity of "higher-order Demons" to suppress the biological alteration of possession hosts.

It seems that Sesshōin Kiara may have become an entity of this type after undergoing Demonic Incarnation (魔人化, Majin-ka, lit. 'transforming into a demonic human') in Extra CCC. Also, the Seventy-Two Demon Gods (魔神, Majin, lit. 'magic / demon god') summoned by Solomon in Grand Order may be of this variety as well.

The terminological distinction between generic Demons and True Demons is an invention of the Church; according to Fuyuki Wiki, the Thaumaturgical Association doesn't differentiate between the two varieties, and essentially treats them as the same thing.

What's notable is that Gaia explicitly ignores the existence of Curses and Demons, permitting them to persist unadulterated / without imposition of attrition against either their existence itself or their use of phenomenon interference; without aggressively enforcing a cancellation beyond the natural dictates of entropy. That is to say, unlike Dead Apostles, Demons don't require constant procurement and expenditure of prana to survive (though they appear to subsist on the consumption of wishes / desires), and they're capable of independently realizing phenomena without incurring a prana cost or the use of external resources.

Also, whereas Alaya restricts Phantasmal beings from freely entering the Domain of Man, it largely doesn't interfere with the activities of Demons—possibly because they arise of something that humans are by inherent nature connected with (the 6th Imaginary Aspect). However, in the circumstance that Demonic existences threaten the survival of humanity / the Common Sense as a whole, the Counter Force may be deployed to intervene (this accounts for some portion of the allies the protagonists of Grand Order encounter in their missions).

For purposes of reference, this is the entry regarding "Demonic Incarnation" in the JP Wiki:
魔人化

自らの業によって人間ではなくなってしまい、結果的に悪魔のカテゴリーに含まれること。悪魔、魔人化と銘打ってはいるが、この認識宇宙における「人」ではなくなった結果、異なる文明圏や異なる惑星に住まう高次元生命体と変わらない在り方を持つ。もしくは二十世紀に流行した、とある創作神話における邪神の在り方に近い。​

Demonic Incarnation (魔人化, Majin-ka)

By way of one's own acts (業, gō, lit. 'sins; worldly preoccupations / fixations / absorptions; karma'), a loss of humanity, and a resulting subsumption to the category of demonkind. Though the process is referred to by the name of "Demonic Incarnation," one who is no longer recognized as a [human] per the context of the Observed Universe (認識宇宙, ninshiki-uchū, lit. 'the universe derived of observation / perception') becomes in essence indistinguishable from a higher-dimensional lifeform (高次元生命体) of an alien civilization or a different planet; approximating the existence of a cosmic horror (邪神, jashin, lit. 'evil god') from a certain fictitious Mythos popular in the 20th century.​
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Sauce.
 
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So, generally not Beast level, no. Beasts, so far, are quite capable of ending human civilization, and it took 72 pillars, Solomon's body, and a plan to gather power from all of human history to reach Beast.
 
Speaking of Beasts, I had a lying-in-bed-thinking-about-random-things thought recently: Beasts have a deeper connection to Grands than has been revealed so far.

Consider Merlin's choco scene. He says that he and Fou are "from the same origin" IIRC. Furthermore, we know Goetia was born from Solomon. My theory is that for every Grand, there's a specific Beast - or for every Beast, there's a specific Grand, I dunno how the causal link goes.

This could explain how King Hassan forced a concept of death on Tiamat: she's "his" Beast/he's "her" Grand. He didn't have to give up his Grand title to be able to force it onto Tiamat; the act of giving it up was what forced it onto her. This would explain why he calls himself Ziusudra: Tiamat is a goddess of the ocean, and Ziusudra's story is basically that of Noah, ie. surviving a flood.

Similarly (one of ) the reason(s) Fou didn't become Primate Murder is because Merlin is his Grand. But Merlin's not a Grand yet, so Fou couldn't become a Beast yet either.
 
NMR-3 said:
Speaking of Beasts, I had a lying-in-bed-thinking-about-random-things thought recently: Beasts have a deeper connection to Grands than has been revealed so far.

Consider Merlin's choco scene. He says that he and Fou are "from the same origin" IIRC. Furthermore, we know Goetia was born from Solomon. My theory is that for every Grand, there's a specific Beast - or for every Beast, there's a specific Grand, I dunno how the causal link goes.

This could explain how King Hassan forced a concept of death on Tiamat: she's "his" Beast/he's "her" Grand. He didn't have to give up his Grand title to be able to force it onto Tiamat; the act of giving it up was what forced it onto her. This would explain why he calls himself Ziusudra: Tiamat is a goddess of the ocean, and Ziusudra's story is basically that of Noah, ie. surviving a flood.

Similarly (one of ) the reason(s) Fou didn't become Primate Murder is because Merlin is his Grand. But Merlin's not a Grand yet, so Fou couldn't become a Beast yet either.
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Ah, you're the one who posted this on fgog a few days back.
 
NMR-3 said:
But Merlin's not a Grand yet, so Fou couldn't become a Beast yet either.
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Interesting theory, but Goetia was created after Solomon's normal death, and Solomon hadn't even been summoned when the demons possessed his corpse, much less summoned as a Grand. That kinda seems to disprove the whole "a Grand must exist for a Beast to be created" thing.
 
I remember it being

Solomon creates Goetia as the foundation of Magecraft
They cannot comprehend humanity or calculate their value
They curse/question Solomon why someone as capable as him is allowing humanity to suffer
Solomon does not answer because 'God told him too' isn't a good answer
Goetia start to hate Solomon and 'pity' mankind like one pities a dying animal
Solomon dies
Goetia possess his body and starts the plans. (Magi Pillar Lineages- Collecting energy and so on)
 
Squirtodyle said:
Interesting theory, but Goetia was created after Solomon's normal death, and Solomon hadn't even been summoned when the demons possessed his corpse, much less summoned as a Grand. That kinda seems to disprove the whole "a Grand must exist for a Beast to be created" thing.
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Mhm. Rereading this translation of Goetia's first appearance, he says a Grand Servant is a Heroic Spirit chosen by the Root, which doesn't really give two shits about time.

But then again that fucks with (a) the theory that Fou didn't murder primates because Merlin wasn't Grand yet and (b) we can't really take him at his word considering he's a lying liar who lies.
 
NMR-3 said:
Mhm. Rereading this translation of Goetia's first appearance, he says a Grand Servant is a Heroic Spirit chosen by the Root, which doesn't really give two shits about time.

But then again that fucks with (a) the theory that Fou didn't murder primates because Merlin wasn't Grand yet and (b) we can't really take him at his word considering he's a lying liar who lies.
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Yeah. Like I said, it's an interesting theory which could have more weight if it's confirmed that there are multiple candidates for Beast like there are for Grand, but so far I couldn't really agree with it.
 
NMR-3 said:
Mhm. Rereading this translation of Goetia's first appearance, he says a Grand Servant is a Heroic Spirit chosen by the Root, which doesn't really give two shits about time.

But then again that fucks with (a) the theory that Fou didn't murder primates because Merlin wasn't Grand yet and (b) we can't really take him at his word considering he's a lying liar who lies.
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@ Dr. Roman
グランドのクラス、だって……!?
You said Grand Class ... !?
根源に選ばれた英霊とでも言うつもりか……!?
You're even trying to say (言うつもり, iu-tsumori, lit. "intend to say") that you're a Heroic Spirit chosen by the Root (根源) ... !?
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It's Roman saying this, rather than Goetia saying it himself.
On the other hand, who knows if Roman's right about this?
 
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