Remove ads

There Was A Different Idea: An MCU Producer Quest

Reader mode
Duke William of said:
How was he portrayed in the comics? I have not read a single Marvel comic or watched a single Marvel show or movie, so I have no info on this.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Capital A arrogant and utterly self-absorbed. The Leader of the comics is nowhere near as sympathetic as our version.

Like I think at one point (when he was the Red Leader due to complicated comic book plot stuff) he ate either a Panda or a Red Panda as a way to flex his wealth and power and I just can't see the Leader in this movie doing that.
 
King crimson said:
Capital A arrogant and utterly self-absorbed. The Leader of the comics is nowhere near as sympathetic as our version.

Like I think at one point (when he was the Red Leader due to complicated comic book plot stuff) he ate either a Panda or a Red Panda as a way to flex his wealth and power and I just can't see the Leader in this movie doing that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This is definitely the most profitable portrayal of Leader ever ITTL, so it'd be weird if it wasn't influential.
 
With the relatable versions of Stane and Sterns done, does anyone else think our next villain should be Evil with a capital-E?
 
The Laurent said:
Hmm, it depends on who is next. Creel (or some name like that? Chad?) is pretty much a toad in human form, so there's that?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah, but there's "obnoxious human being" and then there's "cackling mustache-twirler", and I get the sense that the question was more about the second type. Maybe we could play Red Skull or Baron Zemo off that way in Captain America.
 
Kirook said:
Yeah, but there's "obnoxious human being" and then there's "cackling mustache-twirler", and I get the sense that the question was more about the second type. Maybe we could play Red Skull or Baron Zemo off that way in Captain America.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean they're literal Nazis, so that shouldn't be too hard to do.
 
Kirook said:
Yeah, but there's "obnoxious human being" and then there's "cackling mustache-twirler", and I get the sense that the question was more about the second type. Maybe we could play Red Skull or Baron Zemo off that way in Captain America.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Oh yeah, definitely. Red Skull doesn't need a tragic background or a sympathetic rendering of why he's a fucking Nazi. Heck, depending on when we do it we could even poke slight fun at our own tendencies by having a moment where it seems like Red Skull is going to show even the slightest bit of nuance only for him to yank the chain back and be even worse than we thought. :V
 

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWYCS6k1IOA

Whoever our cackling villain is needs to, as I said, sound like they're having a fucking BLAST being evil.

Stane and Sterns are sympathetic, Loki is a complete shithead but still a loving brother, Creed McGee is just a regular asshole, and Hawkeye seems like it has a relatively sympathetic villain as per the first write-up for them.

So yeah, making Red Skull just, like, be having a lot of fun plotting mass murder and racial hate crimes and world domination could be an interesting angle.

...it depends on the plotline we go with. I could imagine some sort of, like.

"Defrosted Cap vs. Defrosted/revived Red Skull" kinda thing, where they're both trapped in a world they no longer fully understand but do ultimately find people willing to fight for what they believe.

In Cap's case, y'know, heroes and etc, and in Red Skull's a lot of assholes and neo-Nazis and whatever as part of his plan to [Whatever.]

Showing them as sorta, like, "The Best of the Greatest Generation" and the Worst, the valor and concern and desire to fight bigotry and hatred that drove some... and the overweening pride and gleeful evil of others.

The Hero and Monster of WWII back for one final battle with each other. Or something.
 
Kirook said:
Also, "cackling mustache-twirler" is literally the Red Skull's entire personality.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean, you're right, but I'd also want to make our next villain fun and entertaining to watch. You know, like a Disney villain, Maleficent or Gaston or Bill Cipher. All three are as despicable and Pure Evil as they come, but all three also have a certain charisma to their villainy that relatable villains just can't match. Relatable villains are great, but they have difficulty having fun with their villainy. I like to call this, "Evil in Style." Sometimes I think Marvel has too many relatable villains. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but they made Malekith relatable in Thor: The Dark World. I know Malekith from the comics. He's cackling, conniving, somewhat hilarious and is powerful enough to turn Eddie Brock Venom into a sword for himself. He's not… what he was in The Dark World.
The Laurent said:
Whoever our cackling villain is needs to, as I said, sound like they're having a fucking BLAST being evil.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah, that's what I was going for.
 
I think making light of WW2 atrocities could be seen as insensitive and tacky. I do not agree with making the "cackling mustache-twirler" Red Skull.
 
Nystical said:
Our "cackling mustache-twirler" can be MODOK in Iron Man 2.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I actually had a thought on how to make MODOK a fun villain—don't change his personality at all, but remove the ridiculous vestigial baby arms and legs and change him so that his face is made of, like, liquid metal or a hologram or something. That way he comes across as bizarre but not silly-looking, so you can use him as a serious villain rather than comic relief like he's so often become in the source material. I think he could definitely deliver on the "evil with style" element if you stripped away the aesthetic elements that keep him from getting there.
 
Last edited:
Nystical said:
I think making light of WW2 atrocities could be seen as insensitive and tacky. I do not agree with making the "cackling mustache-twirler" Red Skull.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I... don't know how that'd be making light of it? The fact that he enjoys doing evil shit isn't because it's enjoyable, it's because he's terrible. He's a monster from one of the darkest periods of human history and he regrets absolutely nothing except that his kind of monster lost last time.

Him having a lot of fun being terrible should of course be contrasted with the fact that everyone else treats him more like something out of a horror movie. Never let the movie share his perspective in how much fun this all is.

There's ways for directors/writers/etc to frame narratives so that you see things from one side or the other.
 
Last edited:
The Laurent said:
I... don't know how that'd be making light of it? The fact that he enjoys doing evil shit isn't because it's enjoyable, it's because he's terrible. He's a monster from one of the darkest periods of human history and he regrets absolutely nothing except that his kind of monster lost last time.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah, but I do think Nystical has a point about the treatment of the Nazis' actions. Making the Red Skull just a complete monster is one thing, but giving him charisma is another—villains who have that are the kind of villains that fans kind of like, and we don't want them to like a Nazi.
 
The Laurent said:
I... don't know how that'd be making light of it? The fact that he enjoys doing evil shit isn't because it's enjoyable, it's because he's terrible. He's a monster from one of the darkest periods of human history and he regrets absolutely nothing except that his kind of monster lost last time.

Him having a lot of fun being terrible should of course be contrasted with the fact that everyone else treats him more like something out of a horror movie. Never let the movie share his perspective in how much fun this all is.

There's ways for directors/writers/etc to frame narratives so that you see things from one side or the other.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Then what's the point of doing a cackling mustache-twirler if you can't properly do one?

1gnit3 said:
I mean, you're right, but I'd also want to make our next villain fun and entertaining to watch. You know, like a Disney villain, Maleficent or Gaston or Bill Cipher. All three are as despicable and Pure Evil as they come, but all three also have a certain charisma to their villainy that relatable villains just can't match. Relatable villains are great, but they have difficulty having fun with their villainy. I like to call this, "Evil in Style." Sometimes I think Marvel has too many relatable villains. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but they made Malekith relatable in Thor: The Dark World. I know Malekith from the comics. He's cackling, conniving, somewhat hilarious and is powerful enough to turn Eddie Brock Venom into a sword for himself. He's not… what he was in The Dark World.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

See this post, these villains are likeable despite their villainy, especially Gaston. We don't get that with Red Skull.
 
Kirook said:
Yeah, but I do think Nystical has a point about the treatment of the Nazis' actions. Making the Red Skull just a complete monster is one thing, but giving him charisma is another—villains who have that are the kind of villains that fans kind of like, and we don't want them to like a Nazi.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Hmm, a fair point. I'd be willing to go other angles.

I do think that the idea of a defrosted Cap and a defrosted/revived somehow/whatever Red Skull battling it out in a world that seems to have left them behind could be interesting. We can do themes about the ability to change and grow, the past and future, etc, etc.

Also the Red Skull could drop plot hooks for a Hydra plotline.
 
Last edited:
Duke William of said:
How was he portrayed in the comics? I have not read a single Marvel comic or watched a single Marvel show or movie, so I have no info on this.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

King crimson said:
Capital A arrogant and utterly self-absorbed. The Leader of the comics is nowhere near as sympathetic as our version.

Like I think at one point (when he was the Red Leader due to complicated comic book plot stuff) he ate either a Panda or a Red Panda as a way to flex his wealth and power and I just can't see the Leader in this movie doing that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

And he got even worse after he discovered religion.
 
Not a script, but a set of potential notes:

--Cap is found on ice. That mostly just works.
--We maybe have a flashback or three to the WWII era when it's important/relevant, but it's not a major element.
--Red Skull is revived by some separate means.
--Captain America has trouble adjusting to the new world: the differences between 1940s and 2000s America are played for comedy, drama, and even relief, etc.
--Red Skull hooks up with a bunch of Neo-nazis, underground criminals/etc and takes them over, viciously plotting his comeback.
--[Some Comic Book Superweapon or Evil Scheme here]
--Using cooperation and maybe something Captain America has learned that Red Skull hasn't about modern technology or culture or society/etc, he defeats Red Skull physically, mentally, morally, etc. The climax is less about "is Captain America super strong" and more about, like, being able to adapt and change to fit a new generation sorta thing.
--Red Skull activates a self-destruct sequence or something like that, hints at "enemies closer than you think" (IE, infiltration of Shield) and goes, "Hail Hydra!"
--Captain America escapes, Red Skull dies, but now he has a lot to think about... but also a lot to fight for.
--Mid Credits: More Avengers hype.
--End Credits: ???
 
Last edited:
I do think that we can have Red Skull be entertaining and still completely and utterly evil and morally reprehensible. Like he's not charismatic per se but he's not dour and depressing either. I imagine we could have a Red Skull who just genuinely enjoys killing and hurting people and he luxuriates in having the opportunity to do so.

Like this is a Red Skull who'll smile as he chokes out his own underlings the moment they give him the excuse to do so. Make him capital E evil and love every moment of it. He's not charismatic per se but he's entertaining due to just how much he enjoys being a bastard.

I'd rather not lean in super hard on the Nazi angle and instead play up the Red Skull as someone who has no higher ideology than hurting people and literally only signed up with the Nazi's because they give him enough give to do what he wants. He doesn't believe in Nazism, Fascism, Authoritarianism or any ism under the sun except his pure unadulterated sadism which guides his every action.

Not make him a Nazi true believer but rather a violent sadistic loon who managed to get into the position he's in due to everyone else above him being evil enough to go "yeah he gets results lets keep him around to use".

Edit: The way I'd categorize Red Skull is "He's a rabid dog in human form and has fully accepted that about himself"
 
Last edited:
I do think there is a use in breaking our theme soon, of sympathetic/understandable villains that we leave to be used later. There is a use in both having an pure villain, and a use in actually fully eliminating one, I know it hurts to remove toys, but I'd rather not become too predictable like the MCU often is. Though that isn't to say our next villain needs to absolutely diabolical and die at the end, but trying to not follow a formula sounds good. I'm quite pro, Red Skull evil villain, though Red Skull is also not an enemy I'd want to die in the first showing. So plenty of dials to turn.
 
ComiTurtle said:
I do think there is a use in breaking our theme soon, of sympathetic/understandable villains that we leave to be used later. There is a use in both having an pure villain, and a use in actually fully eliminating one, I know it hurts to remove toys, but I'd rather not become too predictable like the MCU often is. Though that isn't to say our next villain needs to absolutely diabolical and die at the end, but trying to not follow a formula sounds good. I'm quite pro, Red Skull evil villain, though Red Skull is also not an enemy I'd want to die in the first showing. So plenty of dials to turn.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

If we ever do a WWII era prequel, which could be neat, he could come back in my planned version. Well "planned" as in a few very basic notes.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top