The Secrets' Crusade
- Thread starter Snowfire
- Start date
- Original Sci-Fi
acegunner
Planeswalker - Nicol Bolas
- Location
- Dominaria
For in-character reasons... What are the chances that splitting up could put some of the party in danger compared to how valuable the information we could get if we continued with the group of ship Lord's to gather as much Intelligence on thier motives as possible?
[X] Return with a small group to the memorial below, and seek out what it is to Remember – Continues to the other side of this place's spiritual relevance. Opens up possibilities to interact with a Shiplord civilian.
I for one think the ability to truly understand ones enemy on a deep level is the key to finding any grounds upon which a galactic wise war could be avoided. We built humanity into something strong and compassionate.
[X] Return with a small group to the memorial below, and seek out what it is to Remember – Continues to the other side of this place's spiritual relevance. Opens up possibilities to interact with a Shiplord civilian.
I for one think the ability to truly understand ones enemy on a deep level is the key to finding any grounds upon which a galactic wise war could be avoided. We built humanity into something strong and compassionate.
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
I'd like to, but I don't believe that's what Amanda should do.
Hence I haven't voted.
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
Doing a quick tally for now. I will say that the post for @Coda above has some measure of truth to it on a meta level, so whilst you will get an idea of how Shiplord civilians interact with the memorial, if you stay here you will also probably not see it directly. Equally, I might decide to write that anyway, so we'll see.
Vote will close in twelve hours.
Vote will close in twelve hours.
- Location
- Somewhere other than where I am.
"Consuming the stars" is an old metaphor for the Dalek view of interspecies diplomacy, which the Shiplords are apparently trying not to emulate. Extinguishing the stars would be the Krikkiter version, but I don't think that is in play here.
[X] Return with a small group to the memorial below, and seek out what it is to Remember – Continues to the other side of this place's spiritual relevance. Opens up possibilities to interact with a Shiplord civilian.
Starman4308
(Unverified Human Being)
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I'm pulling out a rather different interpretation.
That the Zlathbu were paranoid and unwilling to negotiate was a consequence of the Tribute system. The Tribute system was a consequence of ???. Under the assumption that the Tribute system is the best (known) solution to ???, the Zlathbu's paranoia was an acceptable price. Following the destruction of the fourth Tribute fleet, the Shiplords:
1) Went to the bargaining table
2) Were likely willing to concede several things other than "permission to keep the giant nanotech"
3) Permitted the Zlathbu to cross several lines without responding
4) Gave the Zlathbu a second chance after their defeat was clear
5) Modified their procedures to try to avoid a repeat of the Zlathbu incident
6) Established a memorial to their failure to remind their people they are not infallible.
Under the assumption that ??? really does justify all the butchery, and that the Zlathbu's nanoforms were a threat related to ???, I don't see what they could have done better, other than perhaps to keep a closer eye on Tributaries and give them warnings and/or Fleet visits when they're about to cross a line. Sometimes, there simply isn't a way to compromise; the Shiplords were not willing to let the Zlathbu keep their nanoforms, and the Zlathbu were unwilling to give them up.
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The problem with this logic is that it should be obvious. As I said before I'm not going to get into whether or not the logic holds, but anyone who bothered to do their due diligence evaluating the costs and benefits of the Tribute System shouldn't have been surprised that the Zlathbu acted the way they did and how the end state of the Zlathbu-Shiplord interaction was going to play out.
The fact that the Tribute System would inevitably end up rendering a species extinct purely because they either couldn't or wouldn't bring themselves to cooperate with the demands of the Shiplords is baked right into how the Tribute System works. It's what the Tribute System is intended to do - it needs to be a fail-deadly system for tribute species in order to create a fail-safe system for the Shiplords.
The Shiplords making a memorial out of the Zlathbu is a terrible thing not because of anything to do with the Zlathbu but because it indicates that either the Tribute System was literally a half-baked idea when the Shiplords picked it up for mass implementation or that the Shiplords are glorifying the people who decided on genocide without actually having the will to put it into action.
The premise that the Tribute System is the best (known) solution to some mysterious problem cannot coexist with the premise that failing to come to terms with the Zlathbu (and thus killing them) was a bad thing. The glorification of two contradictory axioms like this is an indication of either rank stupidity (why don't we just try out this genocide thing on a lark, what could possibly go wrong?) or rank hypocrisy (what a terrible thing it is that we had to murder these people rather than come to terms, obviously we need to go out and murder more people faster without bothering to try and come to terms).
That is the problem here, you have to go really really far to justify all they have done. And not only going so grimdark would be out of place with the story so far(this isn't 40k at its worst), it also doesn't fit with how the Shiplords have been presented as basically doing routine work. The latest chapter only highlights it, the very way the whole situation with the Zlathbu is described precludes whatever threat those involved are aware of from being that serious.*
Because you see, after all the Shiplords have done it would be utter insanity by the part of anyone to trust them. The Zlathbu very much acted in the way one would expect of people who finally achieved some sort of meaningful resistance to monsters carrying out genocide and worse on a galactic scale. And after managing that feat to return to being naught but victims to the Shiplords' whims? No, better to die than go back because death is better.
And this should be obvious. The fact the Shiplords didn't consider the possibility from the start shows a distinct lack of consideration on how the Tribute system would go, and thus another strike against them actually trying to do their best to handle whatever issue they found.
The only reason we are even willing to entertain the notion of diplomacy is the combination of Practice, Uninvolved and OOC info. Even then it is more that a war would kill a lot of people and so we lean towards deciding letting evil live on is better if we can keep more people alive, while afterwards they would be in no position to do similar or worse.
*Though that still leaves the possibility the actual problem is something kept hidden and what the population at large knows is a lesser issue, misdirection or flat out lie.
- Location
- Somewhere out there
The problem with your logic here is that it assumes that the Tribute system hasn't changed between then and now. I don't think it's safe to assume that the Shiplords approached the Zlathbu in the same way they approached Humanity -- on the contrary, the fact that there IS such a significant memorial, with such a significant emotional underpinning, suggests that the Tribute system as we know it in the current day was in part a RESULT of what happened here.
Or, it means that they recognize that the best (known) solution to a problem may have elements which are bad. Best != perfect.
It's not an assumption to say that the Zlathbu were approached the same way Humanity was.
Literally the very first sentence in the segment about the Zlathbu flat out says that both cases started off the same way.
More broadly, the issue with the 'fine-tuning' idea is that as best we can tell any changes made to the Tribute System in the wake of the Zlathbu run counter to parts of the Zlathbu that are mourned - there is explicit regret that the Shiplords fucked diplomacy up and killed a species they shouldn't have, but the later products of the Tribute System (both ourselves and the Group pf Six) don't display anywhere near the amount of effort towards diplomacy we saw directed towards the Zlathbu.
The Simpsons meme where Homer tells Bart that the lesson to learn from trying your best and failing is to never try is supposed to be a joke, not a serious course of action.
Starman4308
(Unverified Human Being)
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
It's clear that the Shiplords have come to terms with plenty of species which have worked their way free of the Tributary system and established the right to live, albeit with constant Shiplord surveillance. The difference is that those other species just barely eked out victory over a Tribute fleet, whereas the Zlathbu, in a single cycle, utterly smashed the Tribute fleet with a weapon that took War Fleets years to reduce.
With other species, the Shiplords could say "Hey, good job defeating the Tribute fleet! Now, you have two choices: live under our surveillance, or be crushed by our Regular fleets".
With the stunning success of the Zlathbu nanoforms, the Zlathbu saw a third option: rebel. That is the key difference: they thought they had a chance of victory, whereas other species saw Regulars for the first time and thought "shit, they were sandbagging! Yeah, we have no real choice but to accept Shiplord terms. Again."
Because the Zlathbu saw a chance for success, the normal Shiplord reactions were inapplicable; they tried and failed to bring it back around to the standard situation.
What the Shiplords didn't see coming was the Zlathbu going from "normal Tribute species" to "oh god planetary nanoforms" in a single cycle. Faced with an unprecedented jump in a Tribute species's capabilities, their standard diplomacy methods were thrown for a loop. They tried... and failed.
Also, at this point, I'm just assuming that the spaces between stars contain Surprise Slaanesh, and nothing else they've tried has stopped other species from poking Surprise Slaanesh.
This is incorrect.
The Zlathbu took 4 cycles before they managed to defeat the Collectors of a Shiplord Tribute Fleet. It also took three of their generations, which depending on the exact specifics may well mean their trap was the result of work that began before the 3rd Tribute fleet came to the Zlathbu and got what they came for and spanned more than just a single cycle.
Plus while it took the War Fleets years to disrupt the nanoform weapon, that took place after 50 years worth of the Zlathbu continuing to build up and fortify while the Shiplords attempted to convince them not to do so over lagless - if the War Fleet had moved in immediately it would definitely not have taken as long.
So the idea that the Shiplords were thrown by the Zlathbu's military power is unlikely - they had previous experience with stellar enclosures before, and while it was easy to miss -
the implication of the bolded bit is that if the Zlathbu had actually finished their Dyson Sphere/Swarm their nano weapon could have held their stellar exclusion zone against the War Fleet indefinitely provided the Shiplords didn't break out one of their sun-snuffers. Actually, the whole mention of the previous encounter with a stellar collector being a big/notable war kinda makes me think that's that why/when the Shiplords developed their sun-snuffers in the first place, as a way of dealing with a fortress system that had a full Dyson sphere/swarm set up and so couldn't be beaten through attrition the way the Zlathbu were.
/pedantry
Starman4308
(Unverified Human Being)
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- He/Him/His
The one-cycle thing is correct as written. Third visit: everything normal. Fourth visit: WTF.
- Location
- Somewhere out there
Rephrasing it that way makes the sentence mean something completely different.
The way the Shiplords approach a Tributary is a separate concept from the approach the Shiplords take to a Tributary. It's a confusing bit of the English language, I know, and I apologize for the lack of clarity. To clarify, I'll rephrase to avoid the use of the word "approach," and try to use more concrete language.
From a Tributary's perspective, the Shiplords did the same things when they met the Zlathbu as they did when they met Humanity. This is what your statement I quoted means, and you are correct about this.
However, what I said is that, from the Shiplords' perspective, we can't assume that the plans and strategies that Shiplord High Command had in mind during the time that they were dealing with the Zlathbu are the same as the plans and strategies they had in mind in the current time period. There's likely centuries if not millennia between then and now, and I wouldn't expect their views to pass that entire period completely unchanged. Their underlying motivations are probably the same, but we know for a fact that they've tried a whole bunch of different things over the history of the galaxy to try to accomplish those goals, and we know that they're unhappy with that history. We know, because the Shiplord Commander straight up told us this in no uncertain terms.
I think you're misinterpreting the message of the memorial.
The way I read it, the Shiplords mourn the Zlathbu because their failed diplomacy led directly to the need to destroy them before something got out of control. As a result, it would appear that they resolved to take a more aggressive stance in the future -- when they see something that's a problem, taking time to try to negotiate something only gives the rebels more time to escalate, so they think they have to be harsher, more punitive, more direct. Sweep in, destroy the means of production, crush their spirits again, leave stricter Directives, threaten swift destruction for disobedience instead of giving a second chance.
In short: The failure with the Zlathbu made the Shiplords feel they had to be more ruthless, because mercy led to extinction when a firm hand might have killed more individuals but left the species alive.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
You also have to consider the outright genocide at first contact (first tribute fleet arrives) when not matching up to SL standards.
So - do not fight enough (or right), get genocided.
Fight to successful, get genocided.
That must be a unique set of circumstances to make that behavior justifiable.
I wrote a lot longer post on how their 'diplomacy' isn't, but then removed it because it was all besides the point.
My view is that if something like that was true they should just kill all life in the galaxy besides them. The moral choice against such a threat people just won't stop poking is not to inflict horrors on countless beings over and over indefinitely, but simply prevent it from happening entirely. Save specimens of all biomes if possible and hope one day to figure out how to handle it, but until then at least there isn't so many species evolving to be intelligent only to suffer over it.
Thus if justification are to be even on the table the tribute system, down to every single one of its cruelties, must be a fundamental and absolutely required part of keeping whatever threat is at bay. Yet the more we find about things the less that seems plausible, with the tale of the Zlathbu only adding to that trend.
My only conclusion is one of the theories I had before, they seem to be view their failure on the Zlathbu in a way that implies it is better for the Zlathbu themselves to live under the tribute system than to die. This is something I very much disagree with on every level, and that dissonance on starting assumptions makes it unlikely I will manage to figure things out until we are all but given the whole picture.
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Queen Kit
Your Prophet and Portent of Doom
- Location
- New England
I don't usually post, but there's something I noticed that I don't see coming up much. It looks to me like the shiplords fears were maybe not "what this race's nanomass could do to us to defeat us", but rather more along the lines of "what this race's nanomass could do to damage the rest of the universe around them.
After all, they DESTROYED the planets in their system including their own. Which part of this memorial indicates held a biodiversity that is considered precious to the Shiplords. And it appeared to move very quickly. What if the Zlathbu had lost control of this nanomass and it got set free to Devour more planets with nothing to stop it?
(Also shiplords are not a hive mind or infallible. They're just old. They wouldn't be the first society to fuck up and over correct by fucking up another way. And not every Shiplord would have know how the badly the tribute scarred other races as they may not have seen the reactions to it until it was too late to be able to say stop and redirect quickly.)
not sure I'll reply as I'm off to work, but that's something I saw
After all, they DESTROYED the planets in their system including their own. Which part of this memorial indicates held a biodiversity that is considered precious to the Shiplords. And it appeared to move very quickly. What if the Zlathbu had lost control of this nanomass and it got set free to Devour more planets with nothing to stop it?
(Also shiplords are not a hive mind or infallible. They're just old. They wouldn't be the first society to fuck up and over correct by fucking up another way. And not every Shiplord would have know how the badly the tribute scarred other races as they may not have seen the reactions to it until it was too late to be able to say stop and redirect quickly.)
not sure I'll reply as I'm off to work, but that's something I saw
The idea that the Shiplords have taken the story of the Zlathbu and twisted it into a shaggy dog story designed to scare future generations from ever turning away from their plan to attempt to maximize the number of genocides they can carry out isn't any better for my opinion of them.
It's still a codification of that 'never try' joke being taken seriously, and it's still something that has to go before Amanda and co./humanity can actually achieve their goal of attempting a peaceful/diplomatic resolution to their goals.
Starman4308
(Unverified Human Being)
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I can sort of see that perspective. As counterpoints:
1) There is still light, life and culture. The existence of suffering does not mean there is no good out of attempting to preserve something out of a species, even if eventually it winds up being just another member of the Uninvolved. I'm still assuming that otherwise, species tend to poke Surprise Slaanesh and suffer a rather terrible fate, and that warning species about the existence of Surprise Slaanesh hasn't really helped matters.
2) Maybe, one of these days, a species will come up with an idea which breaks the cycle. Just because the Shiplords haven't found a better solution doesn't mean there isn't one, and it's clear from the story that the Shiplords want there to be a better solution. The Stelliferous era is yet young, and the vast bulk of sapient life has yet to come into existence.
It's clear they have tried. Over and over and over. They've done nothing but try, not when it would be vastly simpler to, as strauss points out, just genocide every species as it comes into existence. One can argue they've fallen into a rut, and that they need to try something radically different.
The question is, of course, is your new genius plan something the Shiplords have already tried in the hundreds of millions of years they've been at this. Whatever else, the Tribute fleet plan seems to be reasonably effective at letting some species live for millenia, and in some cases become Uninvolved.
EDIT: It is quite possibly like criticizing (Puella Magi Madoka Magica spoilers) Homura for not trying to warn everybody about how Witches are made and the coming of Walpurgisnacht. She tried both. Two attempts, two failures. At least with the "be mysterious and keep QB away from Madoka" plan, Homura's been able to keep Madoka safe up until Walpurgisnacht, which is progress, right? One can suggest that maybe she just didn't do it right, but the Shiplords? Best guess is that, whatever your idea is, they have standard deviations on how successful that strategy was.
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Asserting that each and every time a Tribute Fleet rolls into town and gets to work with their Standard Operating Procedure on a newly discovered species should count as an attempt to curtail or avoid usage of the Tribute System is complete bunk - it is literally self-contradictory, because using the Tribute System on a new species and not using the Tribute System on that same species are mutually exclusive actions.
Go ahead and cite the point where the Shiplords engaged in diplomacy after their interaction with the Zlathbu, then. Hell, I'll even lower the bar and accept a citation of a point after the Zlathbu (and also not attributable to the Zlathbu) where the Shiplords made another deliberate attempt at changing the Tribute System from what it was - even if it didn't involve diplomacy, communication, or a relative lack of hostile action.
Without any such evidence, the possibility that a new species might come up with a better idea than the Tribute System is not a point in favor of the Tribute System - because the Shiplords aren't taking suggestions. In fact, the entire sequence of events here tells something closer to the opposite story - Humanity has come up with something they think might be better (Practice, which is explicitly not something the Shiplords have access to), and instead of the Shiplords going "Oh thank goodness, something we haven't tried before - let's see if it works out" the actual response seems to be instead to jump straight to their biggest of big sticks and send a War Fleet to kill off said new species with prejudice.
Starman4308
(Unverified Human Being)
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I'm not sure what you're getting at with the first paragraph. They're trying to curtail ???, and the Tribute System is the least bad solution they've found.
On changing the Tribute System: even quite recently, there's the Zlathbu Adjustment.
Now, if the Shiplords went straight from the initiating event to "let's kill 90% of each new species, grind their hopes into dust and keep our boot firmly planted on their heads", then I might agree with you... but we don't know that. We don't know how many strategies the Shiplords employed. All we know is that the Tribute system is older than the Uninvolved, older than the Zlathbu, and that the Shiplords view it as the least bad alternative.
The Shiplords have been around for hundreds of millions of years bare minimum. They could have been experimenting for a hundred million years with thousands upon thousands of species before they said "fuck it, let's try that stupid Tribute System idea" and found "wow, mean species post-Secrets survival time is into millenia with this!".
As to your final point, about the Shiplords not taking suggestions, there's substantial evidence they are, from species they think stand a chance. They have likely seen species after species think "Huh, this thing the Shiplords fear isn't so bad. Let's poke it with an AAARGH MY EYEBALL". Given the further implications that it seems to spill over onto species other than the originating species... the safe thing to do is be a bar. If a species can't beat the Shiplords, they can't beat whatever has the Shiplords so scared.
What I've gotten is "if you think you can do better than us: prove it." That is the bar for "we will now let you muck around with ???"; proving that they are stronger than the Shiplords, who presumably tried and failed to defeat it directly.
EDIT: Do also note the existence of the Neras, who are not being oppressed by the Shiplords:
On changing the Tribute System: even quite recently, there's the Zlathbu Adjustment.
What we don't know for sure is how static the Tribute System has been. There could have been thousands of experiments, and what I've seen suggests that the Tribute system wasn't the original plan: it was "that one plan which got laughed at and ridiculed initially, but after the 19732'nd failure of gentler policies, was given a shot, because it wasn't like anything else was working".
Now, if the Shiplords went straight from the initiating event to "let's kill 90% of each new species, grind their hopes into dust and keep our boot firmly planted on their heads", then I might agree with you... but we don't know that. We don't know how many strategies the Shiplords employed. All we know is that the Tribute system is older than the Uninvolved, older than the Zlathbu, and that the Shiplords view it as the least bad alternative.
The Shiplords have been around for hundreds of millions of years bare minimum. They could have been experimenting for a hundred million years with thousands upon thousands of species before they said "fuck it, let's try that stupid Tribute System idea" and found "wow, mean species post-Secrets survival time is into millenia with this!".
As to your final point, about the Shiplords not taking suggestions, there's substantial evidence they are, from species they think stand a chance. They have likely seen species after species think "Huh, this thing the Shiplords fear isn't so bad. Let's poke it with an AAARGH MY EYEBALL". Given the further implications that it seems to spill over onto species other than the originating species... the safe thing to do is be a bar. If a species can't beat the Shiplords, they can't beat whatever has the Shiplords so scared.
What I've gotten is "if you think you can do better than us: prove it." That is the bar for "we will now let you muck around with ???"; proving that they are stronger than the Shiplords, who presumably tried and failed to defeat it directly.
EDIT: Do also note the existence of the Neras, who are not being oppressed by the Shiplords:
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