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The Secrets' Crusade

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Baughn said:
Your pancake bap was well deserved. The truth is that nobody feels any need to ship them -- they're obviously together, with everything that implies. The betting ring is only for how long it'll take until they realize. Iris has them down for "two years".
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Two years? They've been in an on-again, off-again old-people marriage for half a century without noticing; I'm thinking more along the lines of maybe they'll share a kiss right after the signing of the treaty that ends the Shiplord War. :V

Snowfire said:
Mary isn't sure she'll actually be able to help beyond conjecture at this stage, mostly. Sorry for making this complicated, Amanda assaulted me for making it a vote. And I'm not exactly kidding about that.
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I suspect it's more about the role that Mary will be playing here. Does she come in at the beginning as emotional support for Amanda, or is she called in later by Adriana as an analyst, to see if some of the claims made by the Uninvolved line up with the latest theories about soul science?
 
[x] MTB

Agreed, if that write-in is approved. Otherwise:

[pending] [Mary] Yes
[pending] [Begin] A New Shape
 
Snowfire said:
Mary isn't sure she'll actually be able to help beyond conjecture at this stage, mostly. Sorry for making this complicated, Amanda assaulted me for making it a vote. And I'm not exactly kidding about that.
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Well what does Amanda want to do, then?

Also, vote:

[X] [Mary] Yes
[X] [Begin] Write-in: Start at the beginning - 'I need to tell you as it happened, so we can discuss afterwards what it means from different point of view. That being said - last night, I had a dream that wasn't. What it actually was was ...'. After telling the tale, highlight the pertinent points, and let our president decide where to start.
 
MTB said:
[X] [Begin] Write-in: Start at the beginning - 'I need to tell you as it happened, so we can discuss afterwards what it means from different point of view. That being said - last night, I had a dream that wasn't. What it actually was was ...'. After telling the tale, highlight the pertinent points, and let our president decide where to start.
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Ah, right, good point there @Coda.

This write-in is very much approved.
 
[X] [Begin] Write-in: Start at the beginning - 'I need to tell you as it happened, so we can discuss afterwards what it means from different point of view. That being said - last night, I had a dream that wasn't. What it actually was was ...'. After telling the tale, highlight the pertinent points, and let our president decide where to start.


Yeah. Just describing what happened is probably the best approach here, the one that's least "Goddess Amanda decides how her followers will think about things" and the most "this is what I experienced, insofar as I can share it, now you are in a position to come to conclusions."
 
[X] [Mary] Yes
[X] [Begin] Write-in: Start at the beginning - 'I need to tell you as it happened, so we can discuss afterwards what it means from different point of view. That being said - last night, I had a dream that wasn't. What it actually was was ...'. After telling the tale, highlight the pertinent points, and let our president decide where to start.
 
Snowfire said:
:o You're alive!
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Hey, I resemble that remark.

Baughn said:
Your pancake bap was well deserved. The truth is that nobody feels any need to ship them -- they're obviously together, with everything that implies. The betting ring is only for how long it'll take until they realize. Iris has them down for "two years".
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Considering the level of obliviousness displayed, I'm betting that Iris simply doesn't know that they aren't official yet and that she will be mildly disturbed when she finds out. These are her parents, this is what she grew up with, no-one she knows has spoken of it in her lifetime, and she has never had any reason to suspect otherwise. That she has never seen a wedding album isn't unusual because how many kids are interested in seeing that? The only question is if Lina or Vision is the one running the pool.

TheEyes said:
Although that in itself is an oddity, because the reason I'm suggesting a "space first" doctrine for human military development is because we just don't have time to invest in everything, and space is pretty much a prerequisite for everything that follows. The Shiplords have had millions of years, and the benefit of an entire galaxy's worth of resources, to throw into their development arm; why are they still in striking distance of human tech at all, especially in a field where Humanity is investing less time and resources, like ground infantry?
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From their interlude it seems that the Shiplords aren't challenged very often so they haven't had a reason to invest heavily in R&D for a very long time. The Tribute fleets are also meant to be beaten so overbuilding them would be counter-productive, and that mentality may influence the other branches. Their last message indicates that deep down they want to be beaten but recognize that it needs to be by someone powerful enough to replace them as guardians. Combine all of that with diminishing returns and they seem to have hit a plateau.

Snowfire said:
Regular fleet drones are highly dangerous to Practice-tech equipped soldiers. To put this another way, the disposable chaff that the Shiplords deploy in massive numbers are a direct danger to your best. Shiplords can fight Unisonbound.
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Admittedly a very high plateau, but it sounds like humans are the biggest threat they've faced within living memory of the Uninvolved. Which really makes me wonder, what is it that they are so afraid of? In before you say 'spoilers'.
 
[X] [Mary] Yes
[X] [Begin] Write-in: Start at the beginning - 'I need to tell you as it happened, so we can discuss afterwards what it means from different point of view. That being said - last night, I had a dream that wasn't. What it actually was was ...'. After telling the tale, highlight the pertinent points, and let our president decide where to start.
 
[X] [Mary] No
[X] [Begin] Write-in: Start at the beginning - 'I need to tell you as it happened, so we can discuss afterwards what it means from different point of view. That being said - last night, I had a dream that wasn't. What it actually was was ...'. After telling the tale, highlight the pertinent points, and let our president decide where to start.

Alright changing my vote, but I still think think Mary should be in on this from the start. It's just that Amanada shouldn't be the one to invite her there.

Also:
Snowfire said:
What is who afraid of? The answer is almost certainly spoilers, yes, but I'm not sure if you mean the Shiplords or the Uninvolved.
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o_O :wtf: Is this another English grammar thing? Because I read that as Shiplords. How are you reading it as both Shiplords and Uninvolved?
 
[X] [Begin] Write-in: Start at the beginning - 'I need to tell you as it happened, so we can discuss afterwards what it means from different point of view. That being said - last night, I had a dream that wasn't. What it actually was was ...'. After telling the tale, highlight the pertinent points, and let our president decide where to start.

Dmol8 said:
o_O :wtf: Is this another English grammar thing? Because I read that as Shiplords. How are you reading it as both Shiplords and Uninvolved?
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Yup. Strictly speaking, nonspecific terms like they/that refer to the immediately preceding noun - the issue is that spike used they to refer to Shiplords, then used Uninvolved as a noun, and then tried to use they to refer back to the Shiplords again when grammatically it would refer to the Uninvolved.
 
[X] [Mary] Yes
[X] [Begin] Write-in: Start at the beginning - 'I need to tell you as it happened, so we can discuss afterwards what it means from different point of view. That being said - last night, I had a dream that wasn't. What it actually was was ...'. After telling the tale, highlight the pertinent points, and let our president decide where to start.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I mean, it can't be spoilers in the latter case, you just told us who the Uninvolved are afraid of.

To wit, the Shiplords.
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Yes, of course. That is absolutely a thing I have told you :V

And in terms of what the Shiplords may be afraid of, well...there's at least one reason out there that syncs with the existence of the directives and that no one has yet mentioned. I'll confirm if anyone gets it right.
 
Well, there are two big directives- don't travel between the stars heavily ('do not linger' being the softened version) and don't use the Second Secret in general.

The most logical speculations regarding the First Secret are that the Shiplords are afraid of younger races having dealings with something that lives and can be active in the void between the stars. The known possibilities (the Neras and the Uninvolved) have already been covered by many speculations; it'd have to be some third, unknown thing out there. Or an entirely different class of thing that can be done with the First Secret.

The big thing you can do with the Second Secret is create life, including machine life. You don't need it to become Uninvolved, given how many galactic races have done that while living under Shiplord restrictions, though. And the reason to so tightly ban the Second Secret, even when the Shiplords have specific anti-2nd weaponry that they use extensively on Tribute Fleet ships, must be a doozie. So the most obvious explanations are:

1) Desire to prevent races from doing what humans did, and using the Second Secret to create species that could then 'sublime' themselves in a way that grants the creators Practice power (or have the creators do it the other way round).

2) Desire to prevent races from creating AI apocalypses or otherwise making Second Secret life (think Tyranids) that was inherently too powerful to contain due to... something.

3) Desire to prevent excessive seeding of Second-modified colonists that would make it too hard to track down and control all members of any given race, but that wouldn't really explain it.

I don't think any of this is that new, so I doubt that's it, though.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Well, there are two big directives- don't travel between the stars heavily ('do not linger' being the softened version) and don't use the Second Secret in general.

The most logical speculations regarding the First Secret are that the Shiplords are afraid of younger races having dealings with something that lives and can be active in the void between the stars. The known possibilities (the Neras and the Uninvolved) have already been covered by many speculations; it'd have to be some third, unknown thing out there. Or an entirely different class of thing that can be done with the First Secret.

The big thing you can do with the Second Secret is create life, including machine life. You don't need it to become Uninvolved, given how many galactic races have done that while living under Shiplord restrictions, though. And the reason to so tightly ban the Second Secret, even when the Shiplords have specific anti-2nd weaponry that they use extensively on Tribute Fleet ships, must be a doozie. So the most obvious explanations are:

1) Desire to prevent races from doing what humans did, and using the Second Secret to create species that could then 'sublime' themselves in a way that grants the creators Practice power (or have the creators do it the other way round).

2) Desire to prevent races from creating AI apocalypses or otherwise making Second Secret life (think Tyranids) that was inherently too powerful to contain due to... something.

3) Desire to prevent excessive seeding of Second-modified colonists that would make it too hard to track down and control all members of any given race, but that wouldn't really explain it.

I don't think any of this is that new, so I doubt that's it, though.
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I am going to give you exactly one hint. You're focusing too much on specific over general.
 
Snowfire said:
I am going to give you exactly one hint. You're focusing too much on specific over general.
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I remember some things about Second-Secret-based computing/networks being something that was destroyed by the Shiplords... Seems like it might be useful for infrastructure and general development/expansion. Sounds like the First and Second are just too useful for other races to build up and expand beyond what the Shiplords want.
 
[X] [Mary] Yes
[X] [Begin] Write-in: Start at the beginning - 'I need to tell you as it happened, so we can discuss afterwards what it means from different point of view. That being said - last night, I had a dream that wasn't. What it actually was was ...'. After telling the tale, highlight the pertinent points, and let our president decide where to start.

Decided to change my vote. With such a complicated matter, it would be easier to begin from the... uh, beginning.
 
Simon_Jester said:
1) Desire to prevent races from doing what humans did, and using the Second Secret to create species that could then 'sublime' themselves in a way that grants the creators Practice power (or have the creators do it the other way round).
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I don't really think it's a case of them being worried about a new race being used to bootstrap something like Practice into the original species (it's kind of a weird edge case), but more that the 2nd Secret can give some fairly strong controls over the mentality of the new species. The Shiplords maintain control over the Uninvolved by effectively using a MAD-like scenario, but if a new race is engineered not to fear nonexistence (or to just to slavishly fulfill the desires of their creators) than the 2nd Secret could be used to manufacture something like disposable/suicide bomber Uninvolved troops.

It's horribly unethical of course, but barring something we don't know about the 2nd Secret or how becoming Uninvolved works it's still a thing that could be done (and thus needs to be worried about for security).
 
Snowfire said:
I am going to give you exactly one hint. You're focusing too much on specific over general.
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Rain fell upon Oshanta. And the Shiplords swore that this would be the last time. Or to put it the plain way there is a problem with the Secrets in that when they are unrestricted most Races will do things with them when they discover how to do them instead of when they discover how to do them without causing the equivalent of a nuclear meltdown with the specific Secret.

This also explains why species that can't kill at least one Shiplord ship during the first encounter are executed since the Shiplords are probably using that as a measuring stick for whether the race can ever even live trough encountering whatever remains of the bad old days in the void between the stars.

As for why Shiplord outright kill any Hive Mind that is clear at this point since a Hive Mind is basically already an Uninvolved with multiple physical bodies in this existence. In other words a threat to the current order with it's very existence.

Hey can we find a Hive Mind to talk to with Project Insight?
 
Dmol8 said:
Rain fell upon Oshanta. And the Shiplords swore that this would be the last time. Or to put it the plain way there is a problem with the Secrets in that when they are unrestricted most Races will do things with them when they discover how to do them instead of when they discover how to do them without causing the equivalent of a nuclear meltdown with the specific Secret.

This also explains why species that can't kill at least one Shiplord ship during the first encounter are executed since the Shiplords are probably using that as a measuring stick for whether the race can ever even live trough encountering whatever remains of the bad old days in the void between the stars.
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These are indeed things that a race as old as the Shiplords could feel towards the Secrets and younger races using them if they're as potent as you've implied. If they are is another matter.

Dmol8 said:
As for why Shiplord outright kill any Hive Mind that is clear at this point since a Hive Mind is basically already an Uninvolved with multiple physical bodies in this existence. In other words a threat to the current order with it's very existence.

Hey can we find a Hive Mind to talk to with Project Insight?
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I don't think I've ever said that Shiplords outright kill any hive mind that they come across, but PW is a big thread and my memory isn't perfect. Insight could certainly look into finding one, though the Group of Six isn't aware of any.
 
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Snowfire said:
I don't think I've ever said that Shiplords outright kill any hive mind that they come across, but PW is a big thread and my memory isn't perfect. Insight could certainly look into finding one, though the Group of Six isn't aware of any.
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One of the Group of Six told Amanda that Shiplords kill any Hive Mind they encounter during Second Contact. I can find the chapter if you'd like.
 
Snowfire said:
I was just happily surprised. It's been a while since we've had posts from you :)

What is who afraid of? The answer is almost certainly spoilers, yes, but I'm not sure if you mean the Shiplords or the Uninvolved.
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It has been a while. Too long, really.

The Shiplords. Everything I see about them says that something Really Bad™ happened long ago and they are not only willing to die to prevent it from happening again, but to inflict horrors on innocents that they seem to want to help. Their claim of being 'friends' combined with the statement that looking to their origins prevented a war says that there is something powerful motivating them. Either they are trying to protect the younger races from an external threat, from each other, or somehow from themselves. The only other possibility that comes to mind is if they are actively trying to push other races towards ascension, but that may just be the best solution they've come up with to whatever other problem they are trying to solve.

So the possibilities I see are this:
1) There is something hostile lurking in the void. If it was simply a military threat then the Shiplords have had plenty of time to build up, so it isn't something they can effectively fight directly. Do Not Linger and minimum FTL standards support this.
2) Left unsupervised the galaxy tends towards continuous warfare. Weaker races tend to get overrun easily and stronger ones tend to overwhelm their neighbours. Wiping out both extremes tends to keep things balanced, limiting the total carnage, and continual poking encourages those that remain to focus on defence instead of attacking their neighbours.
3) Naive use of certain secrets can easily get out of control, resulting in galaxy-wide threats. The restrictions on bio-modification and AI research fit this pattern.
4) The Shiplords regard ascension as a noble thing, but are unable to do it themselves. Whether this is due to actual inability or an unwillingness to leave anyone behind remains to be seen, but they are trying to help and encourage others to do it. Also the end goal, is it nihilism (end of suffering) or do they believe that there is a higher existence that is preferable (everybody (but them) goes to heaven)? Or just a general failure on their part to understand what the Uninvolved really are, mistaking them for a better state of being?

So 1) would be Space Cthulhu, 2) and 3) Mass Effect, and 4) a less cynical Uplift Wars.

The fun part is that none of these are exclusive with any of the others.
 
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