Malaquez
[MUFFLED EUROBEAT]
- Location
- Singapore
The Practice War [Complete]
- Thread starter Snowfire
- Start date
- Original Sci-Fi
- Location
- Somewhere out there
Nah, the horse isn't dead, you can keep beating it.
More seriously, it hasn't gone over-the-top yet, you aren't one-note about it, you just bring it up when comedic timing suggests it works.
More seriously, it hasn't gone over-the-top yet, you aren't one-note about it, you just bring it up when comedic timing suggests it works.
Malaquez
[MUFFLED EUROBEAT]
- Location
- Singapore
Cheers. Looks like this joke's getting more mileage.
Phew, good thing too. It's literally the only reason why I can keep up with this thread. All the technical stuff goes way over my head. No offence to you, @Snowfire. It's just a combination of my own lack of knowledge and time.
- Location
- Somewhere out there
Ehehe, that's partially my fault, too. ^^() Turnabout is fair play, I suppose!Cheers. Looks like this joke's getting more mileage.
Phew, good thing too. It's literally the only reason why I can keep up with this thread. All the technical stuff goes way over my head. No offence to you, @Snowfire. It's just a combination of my own lack of knowledge and time.
- Location
- .wa.us
Yeah, I'm pretty partial to Tideman's Ranked Pairs, or Schulze's Beatpath method. For the curious, here's a comparison of several different voting systems based on the criteria it's desirable for such a system to have.
However, note that it is known to be impossible for any system to meet all of the criteria at once - this is known as Arrow's impossibility theorem, after its discoverer, Kenneth Arrow. (Strictly, it only covers voting systems where you rank candidates, but generalizations of that theorem such as Gibbard-Satterthwaite apply universally).
Slightly OT, but have you been following the (relatively) recent G4v stuff? It agrees with GR up to existing measurements, but predicts different polarizations of certain gravitational waves, and avoids needing any nontrivial cosmological constant (or any dark matter) due to the relevant phenomena being explained by a relativistic beaming effect. The hope is that the new advanced LIGO systems will be able to distinguish the relevant polarizations, and falsify either G4v or GR.
EDIT: Paper on detecting such polarizations, as well as a more detailed paper explaining G4v in a bit more depth.
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- Location
- Somewhere out there
Huh. Interesting. I'm not going to jump straight on the G4v bandwagon, but I'll definitely watch it with interest.
Though I may just be continuing this derail, I would no(having been recently thinking about this, actually) that it could be worth using a manipulatable system, if we allow for
As for systems: Schulze is nice, but all the things you lose inevitably by satisfying Condorcet are rather painful. Oh well. It's about as good as a Condorcet method can get, though, so if that's what we want I think it seems valid.
- Location
- Somewhere out there
I WAS going to give a brief response, but you made me go and actually think about it for a while.
I would far rather want to satisfy the Participation condition than the Condorcet condition. Given that Humanity v2.1 should have no problems with achieving high voter turnout, it would be obviously bad to have a system where it would be strategically ideal to abstain.
I believe the Elder First would have preferred a cooperative moderate president over an extreme president, because their goal was to unite humanity together -- they want the president to serve EVERYONE, not just serve the largest group of people. As a result, I think that the Majority condition isn't particularly important. Likewise, Humanity v2.1 is far better at compassion than Humanity v1.2. Therefore, the goal of voting shifts from "elect the candidate that the largest group of people like most" to "elect the candidate that the largest group of people find acceptable". In this light, the Later-no-harm condition is counterproductive if you're trying to elect a roundly acceptable candidate instead of a 49%-hated one.
We also want Humanity v2.1 to be allowed to vote honestly without having to fear tactical voting. This means that the Later-no-help condition is desirable. A system that fails Later-no-help means that voters can dishonestly rank a candidate they would actually be okay with very low so that the candidate they like better will have a better chance of winning. This is contrary to the goal of electing someone with broad acceptability.
Again with the goal of broad acceptability in mind, we want to promote many different candidates to run. We don't want to have two similar candidates who differ on a few points end up losing because the vote is split between them. This means the "independence of irrelevant alternatives" condition and the "cloneproof" condition are valuable.
Of the entries in the table on Wikipedia, three voting methods satisfy this selection of criteria: approval voting, majority judgment, and range voting. These are all very similar systems, but I think majority judgment is the most robust of them for the goals set forth.
Therefore, in my headcanon, voting in Snowfire's world isn't a competition between candidates. Instead, the voters will judge each candidate independently, grading them on how well they would satisfy the voter's values. This will incentivize honest campaigning about the issues instead of polarization.
- Location
- .wa.us
Er, except:
- Majority judgment only satisfies participation if the voter already knows everyone else's vote. Even in the best case, this means only the last voter has a guaranteed regret-free ballot. Schulze does just as well as Majority judgment, here.
- Majority judgment assumes that the grades a candidate gets have a consistent universal meaning across voters; this is equivalent to a reliable system for measuring utility, which is infeasible.
- All of the above systems degrade to approval voting in the presence of tactical voting; it is very frequently the best strategy to grade your acceptable candidates maximally and your unacceptable candidates minimally.
- If the voting populace contains groups with strong opinions, they can further degrade all the way back to plurality
- Approval voting can also fail to elect either the highest-utility candidate or the majority-preferred candidate. From the approval voting article:
This failure mode is pretty much exactly what you wanted to prevent: Picking an extreme candidate becomes more likely in elections with 3+ candidates.
In addition, Schulze's motivations for designing the Beatpath method based on Tideman's Ranked Pairs are very similar to your aims: Ranked Pairs minimizes the number of voters whose preferences are overturned, but Schulze seeks to minimize the magnitude of overturned preference - that is, to elect a compromise candidate rather than allowing the majority to dictate.
EDIT: Aha! Found the reference. From the Ranked Pairs talk page:
EDIT 2: In addition, for anything legislature-like, proportional representation is strongly advisable. For that, Schulze STV is incredibly resilient against tactical voting (bumping up against fundamental limits, in fact), and has the benefit for the voters of using the same kind of ballot as Schulze. (i.e they have less to learn that's different depending on election).
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- Location
- Somewhere out there
Not sure where you're getting this. My reading says that majority judgment only fails participation in the sense that a voter's second-place preference might be weighted more strongly over the voter's first-place preference if the distribution was already skewed, but only if the voter found both candidates acceptable in the first place (if the voter's second place was rated below average, this failure doesn't happen), which means that the voter still gets an acceptable candidate in office -- which means that even in failure, it succeeded.
It's less infeasible than it sounds. The main difference between majority judgment and range voting is that majority judgment uses fewer ratings with explicit, objective definitions. "Preferred" "Acceptable" "Neutral" "Avoid" is sufficient to make it work.
I don't find this to be a flaw: approval voting is on my "acceptable" list, so if we degrade to it in the pathological case then it still works out well enough. Furthermore, in a study of simulated elections, it was shown to have its results swayed by strategic voting the least often out of the methods under comparison.
Well, of course. But I can see how majority judgment can be modified to accommodate proportional representation in a multi-seat election. The ballot doesn't change, so voters proceed as usual. I'm not going to go into the specific details on it just now because I'm pretty sure I'm inventing something new here.
Interlude: Tracing the Dark
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
"Jump complete, Captain" the Marionette who'd been chosen as the Winter Moon's navigator reported from her station. "Beginning chart check, if it all checks out we'll be able to jump as soon as the drives recharge." You watched as the ship's captain nodded, turning to the diminutive Sarthee engineer as they ran through the standard diagnostics on the ship's FTL.
"Minor stress on one of the primary convertors, but we've got backups in place for when it starts to show real stress." They rumbled, wrinkling their snout in satisfaction. "We'll be ready to jump on schedule, and the rest of the flotilla is reporting in."
"Good work," Captain L'kan acknowledged, before turning his attention to you. Isper, as you'd come to know him, had captained almost every class of ship in the Confederacy Navy and in different futures would never have been someone Bertlant could have disappeared for this mission. Fortunately, the brilliance behind that career had never had a chance to show itself, and the Cich'swa had been truly creative in producing an excuse to vanish him. Something to do with a High Speaker's sister, apparently, but the reach of Nilean intelligence was something you'd learnt to keep held in most cases, so you'd not said anything.
"As I told you, Ambassador Merizan, nothing to be afraid of." He smiled in a way that another might have called indulgent, but you'd learnt better over the last months. He might put on a good face, but you'd spent decades of life learning to see past masks, and his worry was quite visible behind the layers of professional certainty. It was only worry, however; unlike the vast majority of spacers, he'd made jumps into interstellar space before. This was your first.
"It would help if everyone wasn't so obvious about wanting to get out of here again." You muttered, and he chuckled pleasantly. Even after so many years, the Nilean Community had never managed to find out why the Shiplords gave their warning about the space between stars. It was simply respected, and no one wanted to find out for themselves if it was there for a reason. Testing the Shiplords tended to end poorly for the race(s) involved.
"They'll get used to it." His voice held a certainty you weren't sure you believed. It must have shown on your face, too, as he gestured at the empty dark on the viewscreen. "There aren't many who can call themselves Navigators, Ambassador. That means something." You nodded, almost against your will. That title was almost universal among the many species the Community had interacted with over the cycles, as an informal recognition for those who jumped into interstellar space and returned from it. "You'll be one too, after all this is over."
"Even so," you shivered against your will as you followed his gaze to the screen, picking out the faint slivers of reflected starlight that were the rest of the tiny flotilla. "It just feels wrong."
"You'll get used it," he repeated. "Trust me." For some reason, you found that you felt a little better as he glanced down at his screen, before looking over at the Sarthee engineer. They'd never given a name that you were aware of, but that was par the course for the Sarthee.
"All ships reporting in, Captain. The Keliat had a minor fault in their secondary field generator, but it's been patched. We'll be ready to jump on schedule." Their focus made it hard to tell if the endless black outside of the Winter Moon's thin hull was getting to them, but again, you'd had a long time to learn their cues. Not many would have seen it, but there was a faint edge to their posture as instincts recognised the unnatural surroundings and pushed them to be ready to fight.
"Have the Kelthas and Lightbringer cycle their drives five seconds behind the rest of the flotilla." L'kan ordered. "I want everyone at our next destination to celebrate becoming a Navigator." A mix of sounds swept the bridge, the many different auditory responses that represented abbreviated amusement.
"Five second delay acknowledged, Captain." Kira called from the Moon's nav station. "Chart check complete, course has been relayed and confirmed. The flotilla is ready to jump."
"Give us a ten count."
"Aye, sir. Ten, nine," your eyes strayed back to the viewscreen, trying to capture the utter stillness around the gleaming minnows that made up the rest of the expeditionary flotilla. All fast ships, the swiftest you had in fact, with only minor armaments. Given what…humanity had apparently done, your best defence was in speed. Maybe stealth, but you hoped you wouldn't have to try that.
"Five, four," the count brought your attention back to the present, "three, two." You gripped the arms of your chair instinctively, even if it was irrational.
"One." Kira's hand hovered over the control for a second.
"Jump." The world surged, and then you were elsewhere, in the light of a blue sun.
The handful of minnows vanished into the dark, followed moments later by the last two of their shoal and the presence that had hovered around the suddenly active space in the vast emptiness between stars stirred. They were so far from their homes, heading even further away from them in pursuit of…was it really hope?
The presence rippled in the Void between, stretching out to track their path, then reaching towards others that shared the endless Space. Could there be that possibility again, after so long. As it waited for the others to respond, it wondered itself. It would have to be one of the younger ones, if they took the chance at all, but maybe.
Ah, there they were, but my some of them looked dusty. It had been so very, very long after all, and by their standards too. But there were things to do now, and as the shoal of sparkling minnows slipped ever onwards, the presence began to speak.
"Minor stress on one of the primary convertors, but we've got backups in place for when it starts to show real stress." They rumbled, wrinkling their snout in satisfaction. "We'll be ready to jump on schedule, and the rest of the flotilla is reporting in."
"Good work," Captain L'kan acknowledged, before turning his attention to you. Isper, as you'd come to know him, had captained almost every class of ship in the Confederacy Navy and in different futures would never have been someone Bertlant could have disappeared for this mission. Fortunately, the brilliance behind that career had never had a chance to show itself, and the Cich'swa had been truly creative in producing an excuse to vanish him. Something to do with a High Speaker's sister, apparently, but the reach of Nilean intelligence was something you'd learnt to keep held in most cases, so you'd not said anything.
"As I told you, Ambassador Merizan, nothing to be afraid of." He smiled in a way that another might have called indulgent, but you'd learnt better over the last months. He might put on a good face, but you'd spent decades of life learning to see past masks, and his worry was quite visible behind the layers of professional certainty. It was only worry, however; unlike the vast majority of spacers, he'd made jumps into interstellar space before. This was your first.
"It would help if everyone wasn't so obvious about wanting to get out of here again." You muttered, and he chuckled pleasantly. Even after so many years, the Nilean Community had never managed to find out why the Shiplords gave their warning about the space between stars. It was simply respected, and no one wanted to find out for themselves if it was there for a reason. Testing the Shiplords tended to end poorly for the race(s) involved.
"They'll get used to it." His voice held a certainty you weren't sure you believed. It must have shown on your face, too, as he gestured at the empty dark on the viewscreen. "There aren't many who can call themselves Navigators, Ambassador. That means something." You nodded, almost against your will. That title was almost universal among the many species the Community had interacted with over the cycles, as an informal recognition for those who jumped into interstellar space and returned from it. "You'll be one too, after all this is over."
"Even so," you shivered against your will as you followed his gaze to the screen, picking out the faint slivers of reflected starlight that were the rest of the tiny flotilla. "It just feels wrong."
"You'll get used it," he repeated. "Trust me." For some reason, you found that you felt a little better as he glanced down at his screen, before looking over at the Sarthee engineer. They'd never given a name that you were aware of, but that was par the course for the Sarthee.
"All ships reporting in, Captain. The Keliat had a minor fault in their secondary field generator, but it's been patched. We'll be ready to jump on schedule." Their focus made it hard to tell if the endless black outside of the Winter Moon's thin hull was getting to them, but again, you'd had a long time to learn their cues. Not many would have seen it, but there was a faint edge to their posture as instincts recognised the unnatural surroundings and pushed them to be ready to fight.
"Have the Kelthas and Lightbringer cycle their drives five seconds behind the rest of the flotilla." L'kan ordered. "I want everyone at our next destination to celebrate becoming a Navigator." A mix of sounds swept the bridge, the many different auditory responses that represented abbreviated amusement.
"Five second delay acknowledged, Captain." Kira called from the Moon's nav station. "Chart check complete, course has been relayed and confirmed. The flotilla is ready to jump."
"Give us a ten count."
"Aye, sir. Ten, nine," your eyes strayed back to the viewscreen, trying to capture the utter stillness around the gleaming minnows that made up the rest of the expeditionary flotilla. All fast ships, the swiftest you had in fact, with only minor armaments. Given what…humanity had apparently done, your best defence was in speed. Maybe stealth, but you hoped you wouldn't have to try that.
"Five, four," the count brought your attention back to the present, "three, two." You gripped the arms of your chair instinctively, even if it was irrational.
"One." Kira's hand hovered over the control for a second.
"Jump." The world surged, and then you were elsewhere, in the light of a blue sun.
***
The handful of minnows vanished into the dark, followed moments later by the last two of their shoal and the presence that had hovered around the suddenly active space in the vast emptiness between stars stirred. They were so far from their homes, heading even further away from them in pursuit of…was it really hope?
The presence rippled in the Void between, stretching out to track their path, then reaching towards others that shared the endless Space. Could there be that possibility again, after so long. As it waited for the others to respond, it wondered itself. It would have to be one of the younger ones, if they took the chance at all, but maybe.
Ah, there they were, but my some of them looked dusty. It had been so very, very long after all, and by their standards too. But there were things to do now, and as the shoal of sparkling minnows slipped ever onwards, the presence began to speak.
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Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
Turn 13 is well underway, should be dropping Saturday or Sunday if everything keeps moving, but this just poured into my brain over the last few hours and I'm not the type to fight with my muse. Hope you like it, but this is one interlude that I won't be answering questions on, for what I'm sure are obvious reasons.
- Location
- madison
and we have confirmation that there are things out in the void between stars. This one seemed to lack malice, but given how rare it seems to be for interstellar races to cross interstellar space I suspect they are not always so gentle. It's odd that those things can find people in the vastness of space, either they can see for light years or second secret drives exit at predictable points.
Or they exist at all points in the Void, either by occupying some sort of hypercompacted higher dimension ("hyperspace") or by being so numerous that everywhere you go, there they are.
Robinton
Probably petting Schrödinger's cat
- Location
- Scientifically proving a miracle
...Telepathic? Or hyperadvanced senses? Or... do these things have the same sort of senses as Project Insight!?!
Literally, or metaphorically? (Domovoi Butler: "Exactly.")
- Location
- Earth Aleph
Couple of things come to mind;
For some reason I really want to research that void chrystal now...
@Snowfire do we have any idea as to how long before they arrive? After all, we have a rough plan for a minimum of 5 years already (2 year president, 2 year bumming about, 1+ year Worlds Lover). Ah well, I suppose any major development will bring about new voting options.
You know, if that ark from the previous interlude escaped into the void, who knows what can be created from random matter floating about with the nanotech they had and that context web. After all,it could have happened millions of years ago.
For some reason I really want to research that void chrystal now...
@Snowfire do we have any idea as to how long before they arrive? After all, we have a rough plan for a minimum of 5 years already (2 year president, 2 year bumming about, 1+ year Worlds Lover). Ah well, I suppose any major development will bring about new voting options.
You know, if that ark from the previous interlude escaped into the void, who knows what can be created from random matter floating about with the nanotech they had and that context web. After all,it could have happened millions of years ago.
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Unfortunately, we're probably going to have to miss a lot of the diplomacy now, because the authority we'd need to negotiate on behalf of the people of Earth is explicitly something we will not have because people voted for Worlds Lover instead. So, unless they get here during the time we're still President, our interactions with the aliens are going to have to be watching everything on the news.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I assume we will at least get an assistant / aide job in these negotiations. Or an offer of one.
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
This is a good assumption, and I believe I mentioned this during the last vote period. You'll be getting involvement options either way, but you'll have different interaction capabilities and criteria from taking World's Lover.
As to when those ships will be arriving? You've got no clue. Insight is still broken, after all.
faintlymanipulativevillainlaughter.wav
That is all.
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The way you made it sound there's something out there to be discovered ...This isn't To Boldly Go
- Location
- Earth Aleph
Well, technically Ambassadors don't have to be employed by the state before they are offered the Job. So considering our amazing diplomacy score we could work on some alien related research and let it be known that we would be open to the offer.
However getting a place on the first contact team will be much more difficult and that especially is a place/time diplomacy would be extremely important.
However getting a place on the first contact team will be much more difficult and that especially is a place/time diplomacy would be extremely important.
Pretty much this.
State has quite a bit of leeway regarding ambassadorialpositions.
They still need things like background checks and certain security clearances, but there are options.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If it's just about Amanda - she's still one of the 223, has the only access to the closed parts of the Elder's vault and was the president that talked with a shiplord. It cannot be about credentials, and if it's about politicking ...