Third Round Path Vote
So a first point, I assigned Charting the Future and Surrounded by Talent to the wrong places. Charting the Future is better suited to Ever Present, and Surrounded by Talent should have been placed under The World's Lover. With that said, onwards!

You have two options available:

Ever Present (Minister without Portfolio): Vast resources to use mostly as you see fit, combined with the protections and benefits of a Ministerial office that will allow you finer control over public relations. As a position inside the government proper, this role would maintain your effectively complete security clearance, as well as give you direct access to Cabinet office holders and the President. As such, your Minor Actions would can affect policy more effectively – you set up a meeting with a relevant Minister rather than attend a social dinner with delegates.

Major Actions taken to affect policy would be more constrained, as you'd be a member of the government itself instead of an individual affiliated with it, and there will be general focus requests from the President that you'll want to pay at least some attention to. Where it comes to just about everything else these actions would enjoy a mechanical bonus from running off an allocated funding base of Yes. Personal actions would be mostly unaffected; the only real matter of note would be how a functional Ministerial office around you would largely keep the public at bay.

In general, this option offers the widest ability for Amanda to exert influence within the government, as she'd be able to apply her actions across wide range of subjects. Research support would be less effective be quite a considerable margin when compared to the Research Institute option, but that's to be expected. If you continuously ignore the requests of the President, you will suffer a reduction in your Major Action count.

Examples of available actions:

Major: Acting as an independent source of Action Dice for Ministerial Actions with a similar level of effect as currently, although with far more restricted numbers. Supporting major projects and even establishing your own in preparation for/reaction to matters of import. You would have moderate ability to directly affect Presidential policy and the main thrust of where it's focused.

Minor: Training with the Unisonbound, class level teaching of new Practice techniques, affecting Ministerial policy, supporting Ministerial actions with Hero action type boosts (10 + 5 = 20).

Personal: Tinkering, socialising, most minor legislative influence, personal or one to one training. Public interruptions will be far less likely due to the protections of a Ministerial office.

Setup actions: Suggesting a successor and supporting/preparing them for the role of President. This could include mentoring (only possible if you convince a Minister to run), endorsement of the candidate in the election, and possibly more. Laying groundwork for the position at a legislative level, talking with the Congressional Council, Congress itself and consulting the public on the matter. Other possibilities could exist, and suggestions are always welcome. Not all of these actions would be separate.

---​

The World's Lover (Research Institute): Considerable resources with little in the way of directional restrictions, but the government will reward you for following research priorities (up to a point). You'll have a massive ability to pursue both blue-sky and current study, with access to the material and intellectual resources required to focus on multiple projects with the same efficiency as a Ministry or even higher in some places. The presence of Mary will almost certainly bring Iris along as a general administrator/research assistant for the project. This option will be easier to setup, but more limited in other ways.

You will lack Major Actions, and therefore any real means of affecting major or swift change in legislation and public opinion in most matters. Due to the nature of Research Actions, your ability to pivot and change directions on the fly will also be somewhat reduced; this will translate as a minor malus to swift modifications to established research priorities. With only minor connections as well, your primary means of influence where research can't supply an answer (this is going to be an extensive list) will be through minor actions which will have no bonus to use in this way.

Research Actions will allow you to pursue research in multiple fields of your choice with a speed and accuracy rivalling that of relevant Ministries, but it will be up to them to put what you churn out into practice. This research will run the gamut from the study of Secrets, to general material/biological/etc. science, to Practice techniques, to the archaeological work that's going through the Elder Vault. In certain areas, your ability to move through research will be faster than the Ministries, mainly because you'll be pulling on the collected brainpower of most of Mary's top flight group and they have specialities of their own. Also Mary. Also Iris.

Minor and Personal actions will be mostly unchanged.

This option grants you the most access to talent, but it's a very focused sort of talent. Acquiring Major Actions is possible, but it would take work and there'd be trade-offs. In general, this allows you the most ability to work the research and development side of things, and clever use of Minor Actions will allow you to push practical development in the directions you want. In terms of directly shaping the world, it's a lot more limited than Ever Present, but the tradeoff is that you're not directly accountable to anyone and in the sphere that you've chosen to focus on, your progress will be faster than Ministerial projects on average.

Examples of available actions:

Research Actions: Pick almost any option from the current Science and Practice actions. More ability to 'freestyle' actions, and push the boundaries. These actions will also have a wider scope in some areas; the Elder Vault is a good example here, an action dedicated to it will cover all options currently available with Action Dice, and trigger the associated Personal action. Will progress at similar or faster speeds to current Ministerial projects. Can also be used to support Ministerial projects, with 10 + 10 = 30 type results (to pull from the Hero action example).

Minor Actions: Your means of affecting change in the world and directing the reaction of the government where your discoveries are involved. Lecture hall teaching, Unisonbound training, supporting Ministerial actions with Hero action type boosts (10 + 5 = 20). Creating or studying a single Practiced item. Etc.

Personal Actions: Tinkering, socialising, most minor legislative influence, personal or one to one training. Actions focused on research will receive a slight bonus.

Setup Actions: New actions available within the 'Neverending Journey' action chain to lay the groundwork for a fully funded institute supporting general research beyond what currently exists. Helping Mary convince Iris to come with you, similar consultations as with Ever Present.

What do you choose?

[] Ever Present
[] The World's Lover

There will be a 12-hour moratorium for this vote. Please use this time to ask me questions and discuss the choice in front of you.

Realtalk, it's almost certain that there will be some things people won't find clear. If something isn't, tag or quote me about it and I'll do my best to answer. I've got around 2-4 hours before I head to bed.
 
Both should work for the 2 major pieces of research I would like to focus on (the Elder Vault and the mass rituals).

I would assume the Ever Present one is slightly better because it allows for 2 things to be more easily accomplished. For one, as mentioned before, I want the final tests of the mass rituals to be done by millions of people (eg, an entire city) and a teaching campaign that explains what the mass rituals are and how we wish to see them develop to the many inhabitants of the solar system that will not be directly involved. As these things would be far easier to arrange by the government (a city ceassing production may not be possible to arrange otherwise) amd the teaching campaign could be effectively delegated to government PR and therefore take far less time/energy.

So, unless @Snowfire says those concern are unfounded, I believe Ever Present is the somewhat more effective choice.
 
Hmm. I had originally supported Ever Present out of flavor concerns, but it looks like the action chains that I am most interested in (Powerful Words, Inheritor, and Ties That Bind) are going to fall much more neatly under the Research Institute option.

I am also interested in the Unison Training, but that is listed under both, so I'm okay with either option.



In light of this, I'll be changing to support
[] The World's Lover
once the vote is open, barring any surprises in the interim.
 
Many quick questions, @Snowfire:

Will Mary be retaining her position as Minister of Science? Or will the new President be appointing a new cabinet? Or is this something that we're not going to know until we get there?

How does our access to Vega compare in these two positions?

In each case, how much of our time is going to be obligated to be spent with the Unisonbound?

What detriments would we have as a minister due to our lack of portfolio?

Am I correct in reading that both of the available options have effectively unlimited budgets to the projects that we successfully launch? This suggests that funding isn't really a deciding factor.

When it comes to Amanda's participation in interstellar diplomacy, how much is The World's Lover going to hurt us compared to Ever Present?

Can we get a bit more information about our obligations under Ever Present, or is it seriously just "have to answer to the President sometimes"?

What would our loss of security clearance impact, at a more concrete level?

Would it be too much to ask for a brief bullet-point list of what options from Turn 12 would be easier with which decision?
 
So here's my attempt to persuade people to vote for Ever Present:

These two options are actually a lot more similar than they seemed at first blush. We won't be needing for material resources in either case, and we are free to pursue pretty much whatever research we want in both positions.

The main difference is in the scope of our impact. The World's Lover might give us more talent at our fingertips, but Ever Present will let us DO more with the things we learn.

Ever Present will also let us retain our security clearance. I had said that we won't be needing for material resources, but the security clearance will give us access to specific knowledge and specific artifacts that we would have great difficulty getting our hands on otherwise. This would include the Shiplord debris that we acquired, if that's something we wanted to dig into, and it might also be helpful for working with Project Insight.

So really... I think the most significant tradeoffs boil down as so:
* Ever Present will need to put more effort into recruiting talent.
* The World's Lover won't be allowed to look at classified stuff.
* Ever Present will let us do more things with the stuff we discover.
* Ever Present will require us to spend some actions on stuff we might not want to do.
* The World's Lover has less agility in making decisions even though it has greater freedom to do so.

However, I think the disadvantages can be compensated for:
* The web of connections could be used to seek out people that can do what we need.
* The position of influence means we can provide recommendations so the actions we're obligated to perform align with the actions we wanted to perform anyway.
* If we create the organization for The World's Lover ANYWAY (even though we won't be working there) then we have a think tank that might be willing to work on some projects for us.

In the end... To my eye, it looks like Ever Present is capable of doing everything The World's Lover can do and more, it's just a little less efficient at doing so.

And given the way the dice have been treating us... Are we really worried about efficiency? ;)
 
Hmmm...

With the greater ability to shape the world and still a possibility to pursue research, if less focused, I think I will change my vote to Ever Present, currently.
 
In the end... To my eye, it looks like Ever Present is capable of doing everything The World's Lover can do and more, it's just a little less efficient at doing so.

I highly doubt that knowing @Snowfire. They're the type of QM that makes sure things stay balanced, and as a result none of the choices here are blatantly better than the other. They just have different priorities. Ever Present isn't going to do everything that The World's Lover can do, because Snowfire wouldn't have given us the option otherwise. Your argument's not bad, but this statement irks me. You can't expect good rolls to save us every time and do all the work for us.
 
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I highly doubt that knowing @Snowfire. They're the type of QM that makes sure things stay balanced, and as a result none of the choices here are blatantly better than the other. They just have different priorities. Ever Present isn't going to do everything that The World's Lover can do, because Snowfire wouldn't have given us the option otherwise. Your argument's not bad, but this statement irks me. You can't expect good rolls to save us every time and do all the work for us.
The comment about the rolls was a joke. ^^()

I agree that they're balanced. From a mechanical perspective, they are most certainly balanced. They each have advantages and disadvantages.

But they aren't balanced in opposition to each other. This isn't a tradeoff where you get to pick between STR and INT and that decision is going to impact everything else. Rather, they are very similar options with some divergent details. We're not picking between a fighter and a wizard; we're picking between a wizard and a sorcerer.

Actually, that's... a much better metaphor than I expected. It's not the case that each option aligns with a single class, but the tradeoffs under consideration are parallel:

We're choosing between breadth (wizard, Ever Present) and depth (sorcerer, The World's Lover).
We're choosing between influence (sorcerer, Ever Present) and knowledge (wizard, The World's Lover).
We're choosing between preparation (wizard, The World's Lover) and spontaneity (sorcerer, Ever Present).
We're choosing between more options if you work for it (wizard, Ever Present) and more immediate results on the options you have (sorcerer, The World's Lover).
We're choosing between theoretical (wizard, The World's Lover) and practical (sorcerer, Ever Present).
We're choosing between academic smarts (wizard, The World's Lover) and social smarts (sorcerer, Ever Present).
We're choosing between looking inward (wizard, The World's Lover) and looking outward (sorcerer, Ever Present).

Both classes eventually have access to Wish -- both classes eventually can replicate most of the features of the other class. Similarly, Ever Present and The World's Lover both ultimately have very similar scope of what they can accomplish, and picking one isn't going to rule us out of any specific thing we want to do. But it WILL influence what we can do EASILY and what we would have to stretch to accomplish.

And it is my opinion -- and therefore my aim in persuasion -- that Ever Present will have an easier time stretching beyond its limitations than The World's Lover, even though The World's Lover has the edge as long as we constrain ourselves to stay inside those boundaries.

Moratoriums are for people who don't know what they want.
You do realize that if we get a Ministry position, that means that we're working in the same Cabinet as Mary, right?
 
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Will Mary be retaining her position as Minister of Science? Or will the new President be appointing a new cabinet? Or is this something that we're not going to know until we get there?

You'll have some opportunity to discuss this with her, but you're pretty sure she'd like a break too. Although perhaps a shorter one, who knows. Normally a new President will assign a cabinet from scratch, but they often pull from previous ones if they've been competent. That said, people normally have to apply for the positions, and can turn down requests to take it up.

How does our access to Vega compare in these two positions?

You'd have to talk with her regarding what she wants to do. Ever Present would probably give you more access to her (don't you even start, @TheEyes!) but you'd still have connections to her through the Unisonbound. They can't exactly take that designation away from anyone.

In each case, how much of our time is going to be obligated to be spent with the Unisonbound?

There won't be any obligation to spend actions on it, at least at first, but you'll probably want to pay at least some attention to being the leader of the group even if you can pawn off delegate most of the actual running. Dedicating a Minor action every two or three years would probably be the minimum that Amanda would feel comfortable with.

What detriments would we have as a minister due to our lack of portfolio?

This links into the requirements you'd be working under, in that you'd be a Presidential troubleshooter for matters that the other Ministries couldn't respond to on their own, or general OCPs. Example: when the aliens show up, you will probably be allocated part of a portfolio if you choose this option and you're unlikely to get a much of a choice in the matter. If you take World's Lover, you'll definitely get a choice.

Am I correct in reading that both of the available options have effectively unlimited budgets to the projects that we successfully launch? This suggests that funding isn't really a deciding factor.

Ever Present definitely has access to more direct resources, specifically because your responsibilities are spread out across such a massive area. World's Lover has slightly higher resources specifically related to research, but part of that would be the high average talent involved in the mix. It's different types of 'unlimited', one has a much wider focus.

When it comes to Amanda's participation in interstellar diplomacy, how much is The World's Lover going to hurt us compared to Ever Present?

See the detriments section. It's a bit more complicated than that, but in general.

Can we get a bit more information about our obligations under Ever Present, or is it seriously just "have to answer to the President sometimes"?

See above.

What would our loss of security clearance impact, at a more concrete level?

Results from the Shiplord research station, higher level military research, Project Insight, that sort of thing. You'd be able to work your way into getting access to this stuff again, but it would require some actions.

Would it be too much to ask for a brief bullet-point list of what options from Turn 12 would be easier with which decision?

Urrrrgh. Please don't make me go through all those options :cry:

If we pick The World's Lover, will Mary have to give up her Ministry position?

See answer to your question about her at the top. She's been running a Ministry for as long as you've been running the government. So it's less 'have to' and more 'would have to be tied down to prevent her'


If you actually vote for that, I'm not merging it :p

Players are reality warpers?

It would explain the dice... :cool:

Where is the screaming in horror rating? Although @Baughn had a really nice post aaages back about dice and ritual, so it could just be that Amanda really is this lucky.

And given the way the dice have been treating us... Are we really worried about efficiency? ;)

I WILL HAVE MY VENGEANCE!
 
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@Coda uses Words! It's a critical hit! Words hits for 6d8 Insight damage!

So here's my attempt to persuade people to vote for Ever Present:

These two options are actually a lot more similar than they seemed at first blush. We won't be needing for material resources in either case, and we are free to pursue pretty much whatever research we want in both positions.

The main difference is in the scope of our impact. The World's Lover might give us more talent at our fingertips, but Ever Present will let us DO more with the things we learn.

Ever Present will also let us retain our security clearance. I had said that we won't be needing for material resources, but the security clearance will give us access to specific knowledge and specific artifacts that we would have great difficulty getting our hands on otherwise. This would include the Shiplord debris that we acquired, if that's something we wanted to dig into, and it might also be helpful for working with Project Insight.

So really... I think the most significant tradeoffs boil down as so:
* Ever Present will need to put more effort into recruiting talent.
* The World's Lover won't be allowed to look at classified stuff.
* Ever Present will let us do more things with the stuff we discover.
* Ever Present will require us to spend some actions on stuff we might not want to do.
* The World's Lover has less agility in making decisions even though it has greater freedom to do so.

However, I think the disadvantages can be compensated for:
* The web of connections could be used to seek out people that can do what we need.
* The position of influence means we can provide recommendations so the actions we're obligated to perform align with the actions we wanted to perform anyway.
* If we create the organization for The World's Lover ANYWAY (even though we won't be working there) then we have a think tank that might be willing to work on some projects for us.

In the end... To my eye, it looks like Ever Present is capable of doing everything The World's Lover can do and more, it's just a little less efficient at doing so.

And given the way the dice have been treating us... Are we really worried about efficiency? ;)

The comment about the rolls was a joke. ^^()

I agree that they're balanced. From a mechanical perspective, they are most certainly balanced. They each have advantages and disadvantages.

But they aren't balanced in opposition to each other. This isn't a tradeoff where you get to pick between STR and INT and that decision is going to impact everything else. Rather, they are very similar options with some divergent details. We're not picking between a fighter and a wizard; we're picking between a wizard and a sorcerer.

Actually, that's... a much better metaphor than I expected. It's not the case that each option aligns with a single class, but the tradeoffs under consideration are parallel:

We're choosing between breadth (wizard, Ever Present) and depth (sorcerer, The World's Lover).
We're choosing between influence (sorcerer, Ever Present) and knowledge (wizard, The World's Lover).
We're choosing between preparation (wizard, The World's Lover) and spontaneity (sorcerer, Ever Present).
We're choosing between more options if you work for it (wizard, Ever Present) and more immediate results on the options you have (sorcerer, The World's Lover).
We're choosing between theoretical (wizard, The World's Lover) and practical (sorcerer, Ever Present).
We're choosing between academic smarts (wizard, The World's Lover) and social smarts (sorcerer, Ever Present).
We're choosing between looking inward (wizard, The World's Lover) and looking outward (sorcerer, Ever Present).

Both classes eventually have access to Wish -- both classes eventually can replicate most of the features of the other class. Similarly, Ever Present and The World's Lover both ultimately have very similar scope of what they can accomplish, and picking one isn't going to rule us out of any specific thing we want to do. But it WILL influence what we can do EASILY and what we would have to stretch to accomplish.

And it is my opinion -- and therefore my aim in persuasion -- that Ever Present will have an easier time stretching beyond its limitations than The World's Lover, even though The World's Lover has the edge as long as we don't constrain ourselves to stay inside those boundaries.

These posts, they have good breakdowns in them, even if you disagree with the conclusions.

You do realize that if we get a Ministry position, that means that we're working in the same Cabinet as Mary, right?

Only if she remains in the Cabinet. Which she might not want to do, and would definitely not be getting straight back in halfway through a Presidential term. Of course, that means I probably have to brush off the Hero Unit stats for her...

Edit: 32 Insight damage! Dear me, someone should probably save for that >.>
Snowfire threw 6 8-faced dice. Reason: Insight Damage Total: 32
6 6 8 8 3 3 6 6 3 3 6 6
 
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It's different types of 'unlimited', one has a much wider focus.
This, I think, is the most concrete confirmation of my analysis that I could have ever hoped for.

Urrrrgh. Please don't make me go through all those options :cry:
It's no trouble at all. I think I get the idea without making you do that. (Actually I didn't realize just how long the list was and most of them wouldn't even be relevant.)

Edit: 32 Insight damage! Dear me, someone should probably save for that >.>
Sure as heck won't be me rolling against that! ;)
 
I don't think security clearance will be too much of a problem for the World's Lover option. Amanda is coming into it it with a background check of: 10 years absolute president, 1 term constitutional president, honourable discharge; current leader 223. All the need to know access and materials for her projects - in a government sponsored institute carrying out research for the government - will be hers automatically. Hell, she's still the gateway to the vault and Mary to the tower.

What she won't get is cabinet minutes, administrative documents, current deployments not involving the 223, department budgets, legal positions... The Institute may well be asked for input on diplomacy and education so she'll see stuff related to that.

Amanda trying to anoint a successor so they'll give her a ministerial job is a bit too controlling. Set up actions that actually build something new are more positive. It's also more needed to keep the possibility open - any future president can create and offer a cabinet position to Amanda and if she agrees then it's done but a new research institution will take more time and effort and much of the groundwork will be easiest while Amanda and Mary are in (or fresh out of) their current roles.
 
Amanda trying to anoint a successor so they'll give her a ministerial job is a bit too controlling.
This doesn't feel like an accurate description of what would be happening. I don't see it so much as her anointing a successor as it is passing the torch -- she's not picking her replacement by herself, but she's doing her best to make sure that whoever it is that does come after her is prepared for the job.

Public opinion already wants Amanda to stay in power. She doesn't have to recruit a patsy to get the ministerial position; the government is probably going to bend over backwards to do what they can to keep her enormous wealth of experience and wisdom nearby.

So really, this is less like manipulation and more like trying to find a compromise solution that gives the people what they want while not overwhelming her like the last decade has.

a new research institution will take more time and effort and much of the groundwork will be easiest while Amanda and Mary are in (or fresh out of) their current roles.
This is why I suggested commissioning the research institute even if we pick Ever Present. If Mary wants out of the ministry and wants to take a sabbatical of her own, then she'll likely appreciate having a think tank to come back to when she wants to get her hands dirty again.
 
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