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The Practice War [Complete]

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kitsune9 said:
I'm not seeing any of those as likely at all. To be honest it sounds like fearmongering. We know for a fact that they have no understanding of practice, both directly from insight and because Kingslayer didn't have any directives involving it. Which cut's off the first two options.

As for blowing up the sun if they believe us, that wouldn't happen because we still wouldn't have broken the secrets. It's something that would have meant that our secret was different before it was sealed not something we did afterword's. Changes that were passed down from a secret are already known to be acceptable and we don't currently have dragons flying around. We clearly haven't worked on the secret since they sealed it away.

Finally races that discover new secrets aren't destroyed rather when they lose the fight the new secret becomes forbidden as well and the Practice where ever it came from definitely counts as a new secret.

Honestly if they were that quick to blow up the sun, the quest would have ended the moment we used Purify and revealed our heresy. One of the ships remaining after the explosion would have left and came back with a war fleet to blow up the sun.
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Practice is our ace-in-the-hole. Telling the Shiplords anything about it, and the TRUTH option tells them everything we know about it, is high treason in time of war. I would shoot Amanda myself to prevent it.
 
Eh, I don't really see the harm in revealing the origin of Practice. It's certainly not any more dangerous than the revelation that Practice is, in fact, a thing for us. I imagined that they cottoned on to that detail about 2 seconds after the Mendicant disappeared in a ball of Purification.

Besides which, we were planning on killing them all anyway, and there being awfully obliging by making a suicidal berserker run right at our fleet. That is (one of) the reason(s) that we decided to have this throw down over Mars, after all.

2679
 
Sightsear said:
Eh, I don't really see the harm in revealing the origin of Practice. It's certainly not any more dangerous than the revelation that Practice is, in fact, a thing for us. I imagined that they cottoned on to that detail about 2 seconds after the Mendicant disappeared in a ball of Purification.

Besides which, we were planning on killing them all anyway, and there being awfully obliging by making a suicidal berserker run right at our fleet. That is (one of) the reason(s) that we decided to have this throw down over Mars, after all.

2679
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The Shiplords know something is up, but not what. Telling them how we got it gives them the opportunity to try to recreate it, and telling them how it works gives them an opportunity to counter it. Neither is acceptable in any way, shape, or form. Either is grounds to execute Amanda on the spot.
Everything Amanda says or does is being transmitted to the fleet command. There is risk of it being sent back to Shiplord HQ.
 
[X] 'I pity you... to see only such as small part and misunderstand so completely' Speak 'TRUTH' and send it your memories of what you experienced tapping into the aura (or however you want to describe it) of the Medicament cruiser.

Don't think I've voted yet, oops. Picking this as I wanna see how the Shiplord reacts, and how well our QM can craft alien mindset.
 
Mizu said:
[X] 'I pity you... to see only such as small part and misunderstand so completely' Speak 'TRUTH' and send it your memories of what you experienced tapping into the aura (or however you want to describe it) of the Medicament cruiser.

Don't think I've voted yet, oops. Picking this as I wanna see how the Shiplord reacts, and how well our QM can craft alien mindset.
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That's it. I've had it. I honestly cannot believe people are voting for this. This is easily and by far the worst thing Amanda can do. Good night, everybody. Spike out.
 
[X] "I have done nothing but defend my people, but I don't know why we have to fight like this. I want to Understand. (Why the tribute slaughter? Why the fleet games?)"
-[X] If the Commander refuses to speak, and the Word fails to provide anything new, then step back and prepare to help Lina and the others fight/execute him.

Look how much we're poring over one throwaway sentence from them, all of you who want to give them such insane volumes of data to work with are absurd. Those people are literally worse than ten Hitlerstalins. Their social credit with us is five minutes of strained laughter, and that's being very charitable.

We will not end this war here. We are not trying to end this war here. We are trying to gain information so we can use it as a weapon against the people who abducted a decent fraction of the population and then put them in a blender.

Yes yes, "ten million is a statistic." Okay, imagine those people turned Lina and the bridge crew into meat slurry. Then multiply that by a cool hundred million.

They get nothing from us.
 
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Come to think of it, wouldn't "we got Practice from the Dragons" have been on our public datanet? The one that was briefly cracked into by the Shiplords? @Snowfire is that assumption valid, or is that an actual secret? I just don't think it's a very dangerous datapoint, honestly, but I might be wrong?
 
kitsune9 said:
I'm not seeing any of those as likely at all. To be honest it sounds like fearmongering. We know for a fact that they have no understanding of practice, both directly from insight and because Kingslayer didn't have any directives involving it. Which cut's off the first two options.
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No, we've know they can't use Practice, they definitely know of it and telling them more can only help them. More generally, giving an intelligent adversary information is a presumptively bad idea. What would be the benefit?
Sightsear said:
Eh, I don't really see the harm in revealing the origin of Practice.
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Telling them where we got it from lets them know where to start looking.

[X] "I have done nothing but defend my people, but I don't know why we have to fight like this. I want to Understand.
 
Sightsear said:
Come to think of it, wouldn't "we got Practice from the Dragons" have been on our public datanet? The one that was briefly cracked into by the Shiplords? @Snowfire is that assumption valid, or is that an actual secret? I just don't think it's a very dangerous datapoint, honestly, but I might be wrong?
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Hell, it probably is; we can presume that the Shiplords have our entire Internet zipped into those Tombstone files, accurate to about five years ago. That doesn't even really matter. What matters is that we're telling the Shiplords that we believe it. We are oh-so-certain that the Dragons are the origin of Practice, not necessarily because of any evidence, but because Potentials started showing up after the Week of Sorrows. Because the Dragons died, and then we had Practice, we assume that it's a last gift from them, that they must have somehow awakened that gift in humanity.

But here's the thing: we might be wrong.

We don't actually know that the Dragons are the source of Practice; we just know that it happened after they died, and sort of assumed that they gave it to us as a final gift. But it might not come from them; it could have come from anywhere, really. A cosmic coincidence, a random confluence of events.

Hell, given that the Shiplords just spouted off: "How dare you profane that gift and persist!" I'm thinking that it's very possible that they are responsible for Practice awakening in humans. Maybe that's what the Tribute is for in the first place: some sort of sacrificial ritual, or species-wide trigger event, that is meant to elevate the Tributed species up to Uninvolved status. And humanity, basket cases that we are, got stuck halfway, with just enough power to become dangerous, but not enough to Ascend to Uninvolved status.

We just don't know, is my point. My point is that the datapoint that we want to protect isn't: "Dragons are the origin of Practice", as the Shiplords have no doubt seen that statement all over in their Tombstone Internet Archive; what we want to protect is the datapoint: "Very influential people, people who are supposed to know what's going on, believe that Dragons are the origin of Practice enough to spout it off to anyone who listens." There are a whole host of reasons why saying that could be a very bad, very stupid thing, but the worst is that it's revealing our willful ignorance to the enemy, our species' propensity for making foolish assumptions and then running with them as if they're established fact, and that's a very bad thing, strategically speaking, to reveal to an enemy.
 
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[X] "I have done nothing but defend my people, but I don't know why we have to fight like this. I want to Understand. (Why the tribute slaughter? Why the fleet games?)"
 
[X] "I dare because it is humanity's gift. Like Prometheus's before them; the dragons gave us fire. You state that we dare profane a gift. How dare you tell us what we should do with the last gift of those you murdered."
 
Ok, folks?

I appreciate this debate, I really do, it shows that you're involved and that you're passionate about the quest and there's no greater gift a QM could be given. But at the same time, some of you need to calm down. Something that I've been trying to do this entire quest is reward you for keeping to character, even when it's sub-optimal, or at the very least not punish. Opinions on character aside however, there are few things that I'm pretty sure I've stated before are not the case coming into this debate.
  • There is no communications link to Shiplord 'Fleet Command' or what have you. Lagless communications cannot punch a signal through interstellar space without purpose built and large installations to do so. I have said this before, but it seems to merit being said again. There are no Shiplords thousands of lightyears away watching or puppeting the ships you're fighting. It's just the Tribute Fleet and their crews.
  • Your scan-sat network around the heliopause would have detected the separation of a courier from the Shiplord fleet. It has not. Therefore, no such courier or observer exists. Aliens, what can you do.
On the nature of Practice, however, I will quote the OP here.

Snowfire said:
And though certain things remain unclear, much is known.

Within you, like every Potential, lies a fragment of the power that our guardians cast into the Void in the hopes that it would find us. A shard of energy that allows us to see in all things a shadow of the limitless potential they hold and to bring it forth with time and Practice. That is the name of the gift you were given, what fragmented records of old void research called reality physics. But you, like all your fellow Potentials, are limited. For not even the well of power that the dragons of your world unlocked with their sacrifice is enough to give you the truly limitless power they sought to grant humanity. The imprint in your soul is not full, yet even half empty it can work miracles. It simply needs the proper focus.
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I am not saying that that's all there is to it, but this is known in as much as humanity knows anything about Practice.

So, take a breath, and have a fresh vote tally. For reference, I am merging @MTB's Secret's Unveiled plan with the verbal responses similar to it, as the orders currently present in the rest of the plan are what Lina and co. would be doing anyway.

Vote Tally : Original - Sci-Fi - The Practice War | Page 162 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.10.1

[9] I dare because it is humanity's gift. Like Prometheus before them; the dragons gave us fire. You state that we dare profane a gift. How dare you tell us what we should do with the last gift of those you murdered.
[6] Plan: Secrets Unveiled?
-[6] Plan: MTB — https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/posts/8119032
[5] 'I pity you... to see only such as small part and misunderstand so completely' Speak 'TRUTH' and send it your memories of what you experienced tapping into the aura (or however you want to describe it) of the Medicament cruiser.
[3] "Desecrator? I saw your ship! I saw what you did to my people! AND YOU CALL ME A DESECRATOR?"
[2] "You say we profane it? I say you dishonor it! This gift is the legacy of the dragons you slew without mercy, honor, or justice, and I wield it to protect my people. If you think your cause is so righteous, then I want to Understand!"
[1] Plan: ◈Death Sign — https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/posts/8111747
[1] Plan Gank The Support
[1] they are bound for now escape the bridge and meet up with your reinforcements
[1] Plan: ◈Threat Management and Intelligence — https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/posts/8116460

Total No. of Voters: 29

I will say that @Coda's integration of the currently winning option is a good one if you wish to add Speaking a Word to Amanda's response.

Adding onto that, I am aware that making this a ranked vote may have been more open, but I actually have a reason for not doing so this time.
 
I will point out that Secrets Unveiled incorporates my previous variant, so they could be merged, so it could be argued that the vote is currently 9 to 8.
 
spikethehobbit said:
The Shiplords know something is up, but not what. Telling them how we got it gives them the opportunity to try to recreate it, and telling them how it works gives them an opportunity to counter it.
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They physically can't, the dragons are dead, they can not be recreated. Even if they go, hey these people said they got their ability's from dragons, we know how to make dragons let's try it. It does not help them counter or recreate it because our dragons will not be there dragons. It only tells them that we believe it, and the death of the dragons followed by practice makes it a reasonable belief for a person to have. Finally if they try to recreate them, we already know that their normal methods are not compatible with practice. I suppose they could try to create and raise a bunch of dragons just to kill them and see what happens, but I really don't think that would work well for them even if they copy the dragons exactly and they won't because they use a different method.

Sightsear said:
Come to think of it, wouldn't "we got Practice from the Dragons" have been on our public datanet? The one that was briefly cracked into by the Shiplords? is that assumption valid, or is that an actual secret? I just don't think it's a very dangerous datapoint, honestly, but I might be wrong?
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It was however, people's hope was to have destroyed everything that had access to our data net before they arrived.

TheEyes said:
But here's the thing: we might be wrong.
"Very influential people, people who are supposed to know what's going on, believe that Dragons are the origin of Practice enough to spout it off to anyone who listens."
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OK I'm really not following, I understand why you believe that politicians should never be willing to tell people what they believe. It's good policy that helps them get elected. However this isn't our individual belief our something that a voter believes, it's something our entire world believes. I understand that for practical and ethical reasons this is not something that we can test but we believe this for a reason. Our entire world believes this for a reason. If we're wrong it's simply a people acknowledging the sacrifice of an ally by crediting them, when an ability that they had manifested in us after they died. If you don't remember.

The guardians we had made, great dragons which swam the void and could shape it in ways we had never been able to replicate,

Every single human alive believes that the dragons gave us practice because it makes sense for them to believe it. but the Directives had become our way to remember the magnificent beings that had given everything to protect us. Beings who in sacrifice had given to us the chance to chart our own future. A bare chance, perhaps, but a chance nonetheless. If the Shiplords think we are rash idiots for believing it, let them. Thinking that someone is an idiot isn't enough for them to summon a war fleet. Look deeper into the Void at your peril is the only one of the directives that isn't a command for a reason.

Hell I can't see why making the enemy think your an idiot is bad. For one being underestimated is a good thing.
quotes were from the first post.

Edit: ninja'd what was Coda's interpretation for adding a wish
 
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So basically;

1) we can tell the Shiplord anything and it won't get back to their command.
2) whatever we do should result in maximal trustworthy information gain (ie. We can't trust what he'll say)
3) He/she got really low defences against practice
4) when distracted is less likely to break the 'Stop' command

Yeah, I think I stay with my 'Truth' option as that is both in character and fullfills the above nicely.

[X] Truth
 
Coda said:
I will point out that Secrets Unveiled incorporates my previous variant, so they could be merged, so it could be argued that the vote is currently 9 to 8.
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Your previous variant has been integrated, if I'm not mistaken. Your latest one quite heavily modifies its wording, however, so I'm not willing to combine those. They're too different.
 
Coda said:
This one:
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I guess I have no real problem adding that other then it messing with the tally, and the vague horror of trying to understand something man was not meant to see. I didn't really have a word planned so adding it isn't a problem, would just adding it a line lower work or do I need to do something else.

will add X on confirmation

[] I dare because it is humanity's gift. Like Prometheus before them; the dragons gave us fire. You state that we dare profane a gift. How dare you tell us what we should do with the last gift of those you murdered.
[] "You say we profane it? I say you dishonor it! This gift is the legacy of the dragons you slew without mercy, honor, or justice, and I wield it to protect my people. If you think your cause is so righteous, then I want to Understand!"
 
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What benefit do we gain from Truth? We send info to the SL, who will be absolutely sure it's true. All right. Now what? Is it supposed to see the error of its ways?
 
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kitsune9 said:
I guess I have no real problem adding that other then it messing with the tally, and the vague horror of trying to understand something man was not meant to see. I didn't really have a word planned so adding it isn't a problem, would just adding it a line lower work or do I need to do something else.
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Whatever the last [X] you post is the one that counts. All other [X]'s you posted before it are overridden.

I'm going to switch to Secrets Unveiled myself if this doesn't gain enough traction, because I value speaking a word over the catharsis of righteous anger.
 
Actually... @Snowfire, would this be a meaningful way of structuring the option?

[] Speak Understand
- [] "I have done nothing but defend my people, but I don't know why we have to fight like this. I want to Understand. Why the tribute slaughter? Why the fleet games?" (Plan: Secrets Unveiled)
- [] "You say we profane it? I say you dishonor it! This gift is the legacy of the dragons you slew without mercy, honor, or justice, and I wield it to protect my people. If you think your cause is so righteous, then I want to Understand!"
 
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