The Practice War [Complete]

spikethehobbit · Mar 21, 2017

MTB said:
[x] Plan: Secrets Unveiled?
[] "I have done nothing but defend my people, but I don't know why we have to fight like this. I want to Understand. Why the tribute slaughter? Why the fleet games?" @Coda - thanks
[] Vega handles the mobile, bridge crew dispatches the bound.

// Explanation: The word before the questions because, even if the SL doesn't answer vocally, after the word is spoken Amanda might still pick up something. @Snowfire - could an unisonbound Insight lend some support through the net?
Yes, that plan risks the lifes of all present on the bridge - not taking down the commander immediately is a risk. Talking to an SL and getting first-hand information in the face of a Potential - might be a one-in-a-lifetime chance.

// Comments? Improvements?

// Going to sleep.

I don't see how making nice with the Shiplord is helpful. We want him to monologue, not Amanda. Even our questions can give away information, and the less talking she does, the more he can talk.
We don't need Lina and the Bunnies here for the interrogation. Once the adds are down, if they have a clear path, they should exit the danger area. Yes, I am assuming outside is safer. I might be wrong.

Skelm · Mar 21, 2017

Snowfire said:
This is far more direct, however, and would involve Amanda directly using her power to force an answer. Given humanity's stance on mind alteration and control that came out of the Second Secret, this would be harder for her than anything else. If she succeeded in doing so, Amanda will suffer from major personal conflict, far worse in fact than if she kills the commander herself. Probably the best chance of getting information, but will be the hardest Word to speak (currently) bar none, and will have significant personal consequences.

*sigh* I admit I don't understand the mindset where mind reading is worse than murder, but okay.

[x] Plan: Secrets Unveiled?

ArdanKhael · Mar 21, 2017

Saying 'Truth' would actually accomplish several things (in addition to the unknown effects). For one, it would distract the Commander from his escape attempts. For another, the reaction would be extremely telling; 'Oh yeah, we so bad!' Kind of response means they know exactly what they are doing while a scream of despair would indicate they they aren't aware. If so, that would give us the opportunity/weapon to make what amounts to a social attack on their society. Sure, some of them may try to destroy us to maintain the status quo, but we'd then have help from other shiplords (best defense against a warfleet is another warfleet, methinks).

If the word gets spread to other shiplords through the comms, it could do a lot for the larger battle too.

Snowfire · Mar 21, 2017

spikethehobbit said:
Yes, I am assuming outside is safer. I might be wrong.

Even if you're right (no comment, sensors are out), Lina will straight up refuse to leave you and Vega alone on the Flag Bridge with a Shiplord commander. And no, you actually can't override her in this sort of situation.

Anyway, it is late, and I think this was the only thing I really needed to address. I'm trying to stay mostly hands off, but that could mean I missed something. Let's have a quick tally for now:

Vote Tally : Original - Sci-Fi - The Practice War | Page 162 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.10.1

[3] 'I pity you... to see only such as small part and misunderstand so completely' Speak 'TRUTH' and send it your memories of what you experienced tapping into the aura (or however you want to describe it) of the Medicament cruiser.
[3] "Desecrator? I saw your ship! I saw what you did to my people! AND YOU CALL ME A DESECRATOR?"
[3] I dare because it is humanity's gift. Like Prometheus before them; the dragons gave us fire. You state that we dare profane a gift. How dare you tell us what we should do with the last gift of those you murdered.
[3] "I have done nothing but defend my people, but I don't know why we have to fight like this. I want to Understand."
[1] Plan: ◈Death Sign — https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/posts/8111747
[1] Plan Gank The Support
[1] they are bound for now escape the bridge and meet up with your reinforcements
[1] Keep an eye on Lina, Vega and the rest. Be prepared to intervene if things go wrong.
-[1] Plan: TheEyes — https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/posts/8117698
[1] "You call me 'desecrator'? After bringing that abomination?"
-[1] Plan: spikethehobbit — https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/posts/8118169
[1] Plan: ◈Threat Management and Intelligence — https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/posts/8116460

Total No. of Voters: 18

So...pity, venting, "I dare" and 'Understand' drawn for the lead. Reposting the relevant analysis for the leaders and one for the new option too.

[] 'I pity you... to see only such as small part and misunderstand so completely' Speak 'TRUTH' and send it your memories of what you experienced tapping into the aura (or however you want to describe it) of the Medicament cruiser.

This one is different to most of the others presented, and could indeed work within Amanda's mindset. It's not using your power to twist, which is extremely good, only trying to show what you saw. Truth would be a hard word to speak, especially in this way, but it's not impossible. Potential reaction is a complete unknown.

[] "Desecrator? I saw your ship! I saw what you did to my people! AND YOU CALL ME A DESECRATOR?"

This is…not so much a line of questioning as Amanda letting herself vent the anger and disgust that caused her to Speak Purify. The Shiplord commander is an easy target, and one that could give her answers, but this method of acquiring them, well. It would probably only work on a human if they were intimidated. Applying that logic to a Shiplord? You have no idea. Amanda would probably feel bad about it later, but not much.

[] "I dare because it is humanity's gift. Like Prometheus's before them; the dragons gave us fire. You state that we dare profane a gift. How dare you tell us what we should do with the last gift of those you murdered."

This actually strikes a good (possibly the best in terms of pure character reading) balance for Amanda's mindset at this point. Powerful words, but they're attacking through defence, and that's what Amanda's most effective and comfortable with.

[] "I have done nothing but defend my people, but I don't know why we have to fight like this. I want to Understand. (Why the tribute slaughter? Why the fleet games?)"

The part in brackets because this has combined two somewhat similar votes, and one includes them. This uses a Word, but focuses it on Amanda, trying to mimic an Insight effect. This would be hard to do, but doesn't run into the same internal conflicts as speaking it at the Shiplord.

Please remember: what you vote for will be passed through Amanda's mind before she says it, and whilst I will hold to your intent, the exact wording might change. But I will make sure I have your intent locked before I pull the trigger and call the vote :smile:

Skelm said:
*sigh* I admit I don't understand the mindset where mind reading is worse than murder, but okay.

Because it wouldn't be mind reading, it would be mind control. This post then becomes extremely relevant. Mind control is far worse than murder, murder just kills you. Mind control can destroy you as a person a million times over, and there's not a thing you can do about it.

D-san · Mar 21, 2017

[X] "I dare because it is humanity's gift. Like Prometheus's before them; the dragons gave us fire. You state that we dare profane a gift. How dare you tell us what we should do with the last gift of those you murdered."

Rihtan · Mar 21, 2017

[X] "I dare because it is humanity's gift. Like Prometheus's before them; the dragons gave us fire. You state that we dare profane a gift. How dare you tell us what we should do with the last gift of those you murdered."

Hazardine · Mar 21, 2017

[X] "I dare because it is humanity's gift. Like Prometheus's before them; the dragons gave us fire. You state that we dare profane a gift. How dare you tell us what we should do with the last gift of those you murdered."

ranmatoushin · Mar 21, 2017

[x] "I dare because it is humanity's gift. Like Prometheus's before them; the dragons gave us fire. You state that we dare profane a gift. How dare you tell us what we should do with the last gift of those you murdered."

Skelm · Mar 21, 2017

Snowfire said:
Because it wouldn't be mind reading, it would be mind control. This post then becomes extremely relevant. Mind control is far worse than murder, murder just kills you. Mind control can destroy you as a person a million times over, and there's not a thing you can do about it.

But we wouldn't be doing that, we'd just be forcing it to tell us things, which is equivalent to mind reading.

Sightsear · Mar 21, 2017

Skelm said:
But we wouldn't be doing that, we'd just be forcing it to tell us things, which is equivalent to mind reading.

Not exactly. Semantics are important here: mind reading implies that we page through it's knowledge like a book, going through it's secrets ourselves without actually altering anything. Forcing it to tell us these things though? That would be like the book were sealed against us, so first we cut off the cover, to read the first page. But that page is stuck to the ones behind it, so we begin to cut apart the sticking points, removing every obstacle, every fragment of resistance, mutilating it until what we have is not a book, but a pile of pages, carefully and meticulously cut away from each other, so that we can try and read whatever happens to be left.

It would not be a pleasant process, when the book is made of flesh and will.

2675 Is semantics the right word? I don't think semantics is the right word...

TheEyes · Mar 21, 2017

[X] "I have done nothing but defend my people, but I don't know why we have to fight like this. I want to Understand. (Why the tribute slaughter? Why the fleet games?)"
-[X] If the Commander refuses to speak, and the Word fails to provide anything new, then step back and prepare to help Lina and the others fight/execute him.

This one reveals the least of our thought process and has the least words coming from Amanda. Most of the others involve Amanda saying too much, taking up too much of the conversation space, even revealing vulnerabilities, which could be a real disaster if this Commander is somehow in communication with the rest of the Fleet.

Baughn · Mar 21, 2017

[X] 'I pity you... to see only such as small part and misunderstand so completely' Speak 'TRUTH' and send it your memories of what you experienced tapping into the aura (or however you want to describe it) of the Medicament cruiser.

This one... I have trouble with the concept that two groups truly cannot understand each other, but I have repeatedly seen them accidentally fail to do so. I don't think this is an accident, but I'd still like to try, and this is the closest to reaching out that we've got. I don't believe it'll change anyone's mind, but even when it fails, the reaction it provokes may be enlightening.

Shard · Mar 21, 2017

[X] "I dare because it is humanity's gift. Like Prometheus's before them; the dragons gave us fire. You state that we dare profane a gift. How dare you tell us what we should do with the last gift of those you murdered."

Ughh, well I'm going with the most IC choice here.

Coda · Mar 21, 2017

I can second Truth. I still think Understand is better, but once again I think that a ranked vote would have been a good idea for something so open-ended.

Chaeronea · Mar 21, 2017

Sightsear said:
Not exactly. Semantics are important here: mind reading implies that we page through it's knowledge like a book, going through it's secrets ourselves without actually altering anything. Forcing it to tell us these things though? That would be like the book were sealed against us, so first we cut off the cover, to read the first page. But that page is stuck to the ones behind it, so we begin to cut apart the sticking points, removing every obstacle, every fragment of resistance, mutilating it until what we have is not a book, but a pile of pages, carefully and meticulously cut away from each other, so that we can try and read whatever happens to be left.

It would not be a pleasant process, when the book is made of flesh and will.

2675 Is semantics the right word? I don't think semantics is the right word...

Someone in an X-Men RPG that I took part in years ago said that mind-reading was like breaking in and rummaging through someone's house to find their information while mind control was like grabbing them and jamming a gun up against their skull while demanding that information.

TheEyes · Mar 22, 2017

Coda said:
I can second Truth. I still think Understand is better, but once again I think that a ranked vote would have been a good idea for something so open-ended.

Have to say I agree. The current bandwagon and the uncontrolled ranting option are far worse: the former because it spends a lot of the 1 round we have until the Commander (probably) breaks free, and reveals more information about us than we stand to gain from it. If you guys don't want to speak a Word, then you may as well go for a taunt like:

[] "Big words from the one who has lost so completely."

or even just

[] Stand aside and let Lina finish the job

if you can't think of a good way to extract information from the thing.

Sightsear · Mar 22, 2017

TheEyes said:
if you can't think of a good way to extract information from the thing.

I can't speak for others, but personally I'm not even going for any information. I just think that Amanda should be in a rant-y sort of mood right now, whether it's sub-optimal or not. Therefore, I vote for the most likely option to let her rant a little.

2676

kitsune9 · Mar 22, 2017

I don't get it, understand could be like looking at chuthalu because of how different the ship lords are. If they do have a hive mind Truth could give away exactly how we see the practice to people that we will be fighting. If you show someone the Truth you shouldn't be surprised if they learn something you don't want them to. Yet their seen as the least risky options.

The band wagon was equal to the other votes until the GM said it was the only option in character, at which point a handful of people switched over from one person votes that couldn't win. Find a way to change your vote so that it's also in character, while having the same effect that you want it to have and they might switch over to you.

I will agree that the vote wastes time that we could be using to kill people but sometimes the most efficient path is not the best one.

I'm still not getting what's so dangerous about telling them we got practice from the dragons. It seems like everyone is saying that telling them is the worst thing ever and I don't understand why. Even if it gets back to their people the dragon's are all dead. I don't see any way they could use the information against us. If you have a reason other then information security is paramount I would love to hear it.

Shard · Mar 22, 2017

I dislike the ranting option. It feels OOC, and it also feels pointless and wasteful. I'd prefer to just let Lina finish the job, honestly. No need to give it the just to conduct psyops on us or whatever.

Coda · Mar 22, 2017

Okay, so you want to rework Understand to something that seems more in character, relative to "I dare"?

All right. Give me a moment.

Coda · Mar 22, 2017

[x] "You say we profane it? I say you dishonor it! This gift is the legacy of the dragons you slew without mercy, honor, or justice, and I wield it to protect my people. If you think your cause is so righteous, then I want to Understand!"

There. That should hopefully provoke a response even if Practice doesn't pan out.

TheEyes · Mar 22, 2017

Sightsear said:
I can't speak for others, but personally I'm not even going for any information. I just think that Amanda should be in a rant-y sort of mood right now, whether it's sub-optimal or not. Therefore, I vote for the most likely option to let her rant a little.

We already did that with Purify. If we keep doing it that means Amanda has an impulse control problem; that's a bad thing for the most powerful human in history to have.

kitsune9 said:
I'm still not getting what's so dangerous about telling them we got practice from the dragons. It seems like everyone is saying that telling them is the worst thing ever and I don't understand why. Even if it gets back to their people the dragon's are all dead. I don't see any way they could use the information against us. If you have a reason other then information security is paramount I would love to hear it.

There are several reasons, each depending on what Practice is, and, just as important, what the Shiplords know about it. The most important reason is that we don't understand where Practice comes from, and in fact only speculate that it's the Dragons (and the humans who worked with them) that gifted it to us. So, if we tell the Commander that we know this speculation for a fact, then one of four things can happen:

We could be wrong, and the Shiplords know we're wrong. This means the Shiplords know that we're children, fumbling in the dark with powers we don't understand but are nonetheless wielding indiscriminately. This could result in a War Fleet blowing up our Sun.
We could be correct, and the Shiplords know we're correct. Well, that means that humans know more about their Second Secret Dragons than they are ever supposed to, and thus violated the ban on the Second Secret. This could result in a War Fleet blowing up our Sun.
The Shiplords don't know if we're right or wrong, and they assume we know what we're talking about because who would spout off half-known speculation like that as if it were gospel? Again, that means that humans know more about their Second Secret Dragons than they are ever supposed to, and thus violated the ban on the Second Secret. This could result in a War Fleet blowing up our Sun.
The Shiplords don't know we're right or wrong, and they assume we're talking out our ass because we're half-sapient monkeys. The Commander ignores our prattling and we get nothing from him.

So, three disastrous outcomes, and one that gives us nothing. Frankly, to my mind the question isn't "What could it hurt?" but "Under what circumstance could you possibly see it not hurt?"

Rask · Mar 22, 2017

I'm not seeing how "Truth" actually helps in this situation. What do we get out of shaking the enemy commander's world view? Not an opening, it's already immobilized. Info? Only if the revelation somehow makes it feel cooperative, which isn't a guarantee at all. Its value system might simply not allow it to care for tribute species individuals.

I'll go with

[X] "I have done nothing but defend my people, but I don't know why we have to fight like this. I want to Understand. (Why the tribute slaughter? Why the fleet games?)"

spikethehobbit · Mar 22, 2017

I honestly cannot believe people are voting to tell the Shiplords anything that can (and will) be used against us.
[X] Coda

kitsune9 · Mar 22, 2017

TheEyes said:
So, three disastrous outcomes, and one that gives us nothing. Frankly, to my mind the question isn't "What could it hurt?" but "Under what circumstance could you possibly see it not hurt?"

I'm not seeing any of those as likely at all. To be honest it sounds like fearmongering. We know for a fact that they have no understanding of practice, both directly from insight and because Kingslayer didn't have any directives involving it. Which cut's off the first two options.

As for blowing up the sun if they believe us, that wouldn't happen because we still wouldn't have broken the secrets. It's something that would have meant that our secret was different before it was sealed not something we did afterword's. Changes that were passed down from a secret are already known to be acceptable and we don't currently have dragons flying around. We clearly haven't worked on the secret since they sealed it away.

Finally races that discover new secrets aren't destroyed rather when they lose the fight the new secret becomes forbidden as well and the Practice where ever it came from definitely counts as a new secret.

Honestly if they were that quick to blow up the sun, the quest would have ended the moment we used Purify and revealed our heresy. One of the ships remaining after the explosion would have left and came back with a war fleet to blow up the sun.

The Practice War [Complete]

Polyglot of Chimera

Asura of Darkness

Healing-type writer

One and Many

Diabetic Statistician

One and Many