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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%

  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%
  • Total voters
    738
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Shard said:
Avernus Prime Population is about ~28 Billion. Dis Huge Hive Expansion will leave space for about 100 Billion - The threshold won't be reached for a very long time. The rest of of cities (1 Large Hive, 25 Small Hives + 3 Small Hives, 5 Major Cities) add up to 38.5 Billion population capacity. There's room to triple our population there, and if we are judicious in building up (Bigger Hives) as opposed to out (More cities) which is generally more efficient anyway, the maintenance cost will slowly decrease. At the moment, with the partial maintainence clause in the plan, we'll play about 500k EM as opposed to 680k EM per year.

In general, Hive expansions are very cheap options, I've been arguing for them for a very long time now. They're expedited whenever possible for this reason. In specific, only Helguard Shocktrooper, Helguard Trooper and Helguard cost bombs of EM. They have a combined maint cost of somewhere like 1.44 Million EM per year, except that the Trust is subsidizing all of it.

I note that there's enough of a Soul stockpile that it won't overly affect next turn's EM production, at which point we can go into the Trade Turn. Talks of Emergency Trade is crazy, we don't even have enough action to spend the EM on APA if we wanted to.

(Also the improved population growth from Wards will solve the EM maintainence cost by itself. In the hypothetical where we are at our population cap, all else equal, we generate enough souls to pay for Siren maintainence.)
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Okay, that convinces me. I've changed my vote. It may mean fewer shinies now, but it should mean even more shinies later. The funny thing is that despite being able to host triple the population of the rest of Avernus combined, Dis only makes up a tenth of the costs for Basic Wards. It almost makes me wonder why we'd bother with doing all the other cities honestly, although I know that eventually the wide sprall of cities will pay off when we upgrade them into huge hives.
 
jjffjhjf said:
So, just so you can stop blaming people willy-nilly. It was me. I'm the one who asked for the Titan Manufactorum, when we got it. Still think it was worthwhile mind, even with having to do the emergency trade. Though I might not have asked about it if I'd realized at the time that we didn't have the RM for it.
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I don't remember us having to do an emergency trade for the Small Titan Manufactoriums.. the Large Titan Manufacturiums put us into RM debt because Enjou had the mistake of assuming Mag Mell would output enough RM due to being completed mid-turn (It wouldn't start producing RM until next turn). The Grabakr Ordinatus came at the tail end of a Daemonic Incursion and it's +20 was the difference between victory (in spite of the Nids mauling us with 2 Nat 100s) and defeat (everyone dead, goodbye planet).

Actually moving forward our main constraint are Thrones. The EM/AM production facilities produce a gazillion of them.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Ptolemy on Nov 6, 2019 at 8:31 PM, finished with 153 posts and 38 votes.
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Shard said:
I don't remember us having to do an emergency trade for the Small Titan Manufactoriums.. the Large Titan Manufacturiums put us into RM debt because Enjou had the mistake of assuming Mag Mell would output enough RM due to being completed mid-turn (It wouldn't start producing RM until next turn). The Grabakr Ordinatus came at the tail end of a Daemonic Incursion and it's +20 was the difference between victory (in spite of the Nids mauling us with 2 Nat 100s) and defeat (everyone dead, goodbye planet).

Actually moving forward our main constraint are Thrones. The EM/AM production facilities produce a gazillion of them.
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So it was not budgeting error, but a rules mistake? they thought that something would come online when completed not at the start of the next turn. That is something of a vote of confidence in the threads ability to budget, since the one time it had a budgeting issue it was due to a misunderstanding of the mechanics.
 
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[X] Plan Basic (say goodbye to EM)
-[X] Runemaster Training
-[X] Basic Warding
--[X] Remaining Souls into Basic Wards Maintainence (Partially due to lack of Souls)
 
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random_npc said:
So it was not budgeting error, but a ruls mistake? they thought that something would come online when completed not at the start of the next turn. That is something of a vote of confidence in the threads ability to budget, since the one time it had a budgeting issue it was due to a misunderstanding of the mechanics.
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Yeah, there was a short conversation about it just after it happened. There shouldnt be any repeats now that the exact behavior is known. (It probably could have been detected before, but was close enough to notice without explicit effort.)

Post is here The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k)
 
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random_npc said:
So it was not budgeting error, but a ruls mistake? they thought that something would come online when completed not at the start of the next turn. That is something of a vote of confidence in the threads ability to budget, since the one time it had a budgeting issue it was due to a misunderstanding of the mechanics.
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Pretty much. There was also us not anticipating Grabakr's RM cost.

As the maker of the previous winning Trade Turn vote, I'm confident of our ability to increase AM/EM imports. Also our recent Grand Cathedral supplies enough EM to pay for the reduced cost of the Warding (after considering Partial Soul Payment which Durin OK'ed).
 
Piren'e Colass said:
I'll happily vote for the compromise plan, but am heavily in favour of APA for the Helguard so can't back Shard.

The APA is enough of a level up for them to be true super elites, at least when they regain their experience. It will reduce casualties, boosting experience gain, and allow them to contend with super elite armies like those unstoppable Nobs we fought. We are deploying the best human army in the galaxy here, let's not under equip them.

Edit- it will probably also help a lot with rogue psykers.
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Not as much as having Basic Wards compared to Simple Wards. The bonus is bigger than TW, the effects of APA and Basic Wards on psyker casualties are nowhere near the same level.
Malevolo said:
[X] Plan Sustainable
I don't like spending too much.
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There's nearly no way to avoid expenditures. If not the Wards this turn, APA next turn. The Wards, unlike APA, improve population growth and will be self-paying in time due to the same growth it encourages.

This turn 140 Million Avernites dead to Chaos Psykers.
Last turn 225 Million Avernites dead to Chaos Psykers.

If we're going to be spending EM on stuff.. fixing this should be exactly where we spend it on.

Edit: My rudimentary estimate says this is equal to about 10~20% population growth per turn (net) pending psyker rolls. It's great for morale also. Great for improved veterancy. Great for the inevitable Daemonic Incursion (0.5%) and Alpha+ (~1%, increasing) when they inevitably hit.

This is basically one of the best ways to spend EM.
 
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Shard said:
Not as much as having Basic Wards compared to Simple Wards. The bonus is bigger than TW, the effects of APA and Basic Wards on psyker casualties are nowhere near the same level.

There's nearly no way to avoid expenditures. If not the Wards this turn, APA next turn. The Wards, unlike APA, improve population growth and will be self-paying in time due to the same growth it encourages.

This turn 140 Million Avernites dead to Chaos Psykers.
Last turn 225 Million Avernites dead to Chaos Psykers.

If we're going to be spending EM on stuff.. fixing this should be exactly where we spend it on.
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Do you know how many Avernites died in the Eternal War? Because Helgaurd with APA would have a much larger impact on the Eternal War than on the psykers. I mean, 225 million people is like... 0.2 percent of our population? Over the course of 5 years. Its not really that significant.
 
jjffjhjf said:
Do you know how many Avernites died in the Eternal War? Because Helgaurd with APA would have a much larger impact on the Eternal War than on the psykers. I mean, 225 million people is like... 0.2 percent of our population? Over the course of 5 years. Its not really that significant.
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The Population of Avernus Prime is about 28 Billion. 225 Million people is about 0.8% of our population every year.

Population turnover on Avernus is around 4% per year. Being able to reduce that to something like 3.5% per year would have massive impacts on everything. Morale, veterancy, income, population growth; Our Helguard is so lethal in great part because of their experience. Older and more educated Avernites earn more Thrones. Less people dying means better morale.

And most importantly? We can afford this. We have finished a Grand Cathedral which, after considering partial Soul payments, will allow us to actually increase our Net EM income even with the Basic Warding option. It is an option well within our means.
 
Arghh, having initially been opposed to plan Basic, I know find myself having undergone a Damascene conversion, and disappointed to see it being edged out.

While I know it would tank our EM in the short term, we currently have room for our population to triple on Avernus, commensurately boosting our economy, and Basic Wards would have a huge effect on population growth. As a result, it would ultimately lead to a huge economic boom in the long term. Boosting the strength of our super elites, the other proposed use of our EM income, would simply not have that marked an effect on casualties incurred in the "Eternal War", as most of those are ordinary Avernites.
 
jjffjhjf said:
Do you know how many Avernites died in the Eternal War? Because Helgaurd with APA would have a much larger impact on the Eternal War than on the psykers. I mean, 225 million people is like... 0.2 percent of our population? Over the course of 5 years. Its not really that significant.
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Nope. the PM scales the difficulty, so durin does not have to track how military upgrades would affect it. Advanced armor would do nothing but let our elites be even more elite in the next war.
 
[X] Plan Basic (say goodbye to EM)
Population growth and dealing with psykers is far more important than APA. In the long run it will let us buy the APA as well.
Were losing hundreds of millions of people to chaos psykers every turn, and Chaos is about to get a power up. This is just vital.
 
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[X] Plan Basic (say goodbye to EM)
Most of the arguments have already been stated above, so I'm just gonna state I'm all behind better population growth and veterancy.
 
Remember: We can't actually get better at the Eternal War short of impressing Avernus enough it backs off. That isn't happening any time soon. We will be using the EM either now for wards or next turn for APA, which is nice force our next war but we kinda need a break from those.
 
Byzantine said:
Remember: We can't actually get better at the Eternal War short of impressing Avernus enough it backs off. That isn't happening any time soon. We will be using the EM either now for wards or next turn for APA, which is nice force our next war but we kinda need a break from those.
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I would very much like to use it for both. We can afford that, and getting Helguard into APA is going to do wonders to help with their survivability.
 
agumentic said:
I would very much like to use it for both. We can afford that, and getting Helguard into APA is going to do wonders to help with their survivability.
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We can afford both, but if we do its going to take a while to build up our reserves for another big ticket item. That being said, the time skip is coming soon, so holding discipline would likely be a lot easier.
 
Anyway, it pays to remember that as a Planetary Governor, our power will and will forever be derived from our population. Always vote for the population growth/capacity option! It is all but the best option at securing and maximizing Avernus' future power in every respect possible barring truly egregious costs (this is not one of those situations).
 
random_npc said:
We can afford both, but if we do its going to take a while to build up our reserves for another big ticket item. That being said, the time skip is coming soon, so holding discipline would likely be a lot easier.
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Well, that's how it works. You buy a big ticket item, it makes a hole in your budget and you wait a bit before buying next one.
 
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