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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up
- Thread starter Durin
- Start date
sabreFather
Dr Pepper is the flavour that I savour
- Location
- Land of Bears and Loggers AKA Oregon
[X] Plan Sustainable
Yeah, no. Players will grab the shiny, and then we will have to do yet another fucking Emergency Trade because a Plan Maker will inevitably forget how much resources we actually have. Like how in our previous High Council trade we set it to reduce debt with the promise that we would NOT set up the titan manufactorum and retain resources for the Ordinatus as we had no idea what its cost would be. And then people bitched and clamored to get the Titan Manufactorum set up anyways and then we went in the red because the SHINY is more important than bankrupting ourselves. So, Sustainable it is.
And as a fucking reminder, we just got out of a fucking massive war. There is not going to be as much resources available for Trade this Council meeting because EVERYONE needs to repair fleets and damage to the colonies, and likely an extra stockpile to upgrade the Dragon's Nest to our standards when we merge.
Yeah, no. Players will grab the shiny, and then we will have to do yet another fucking Emergency Trade because a Plan Maker will inevitably forget how much resources we actually have. Like how in our previous High Council trade we set it to reduce debt with the promise that we would NOT set up the titan manufactorum and retain resources for the Ordinatus as we had no idea what its cost would be. And then people bitched and clamored to get the Titan Manufactorum set up anyways and then we went in the red because the SHINY is more important than bankrupting ourselves. So, Sustainable it is.
And as a fucking reminder, we just got out of a fucking massive war. There is not going to be as much resources available for Trade this Council meeting because EVERYONE needs to repair fleets and damage to the colonies, and likely an extra stockpile to upgrade the Dragon's Nest to our standards when we merge.
- Location
- Europe
To be fair, if the mechanicus building started to produce its resources at the year it finished, we wouldn't be in the red this turn. This, combined with the fact it is the first time something like this happened, is why we aren't paying consequences for it.
- Location
- madison
I would hardly call +30 to psyker hunting a shiny. To me at least that implies something that is big and cool and expensive, but not necessarily wise. Reducing attrition rates for our pops and elites to me at least does not sound like that. We could also just not do advanced PA if we do hit budget crunch.
sabreFather
Dr Pepper is the flavour that I savour
- Location
- Land of Bears and Loggers AKA Oregon
I am not talking about this as being the SHINY, but when we next take our actions we will have new options, some of which are far too expensive for us to afford but players will take them anyways, just like what happened with the Titan Manufactorums. Mind, my problem with building those was that the main argument for the previous Council trade was that the only high cost things we would be building was the Ordinatus and the Grand Cathedral(s), and wait until after the NEXT trade to build anything else. Except then players and at least one plan maker ignored that agreement and built the Titan Manufactorum and threw us into the red. If your plan requires us to do an emergency trade then it is a BAD PLAN. IIRC I waffled on that trade because I agreed with both ends, but now I wish the Debt Reduction plan had lost just so that we wouldn't have fucked up our resources like we did.
TL;dr If we do Shards plan then we cannot take any other high cost actions without going in the red or risking debt, and some members of the playerbase and at least one plan maker have proven to take such actions regardless of their consequences because OOH, SHINY! or some other reason (such as being casual voters, no involvement in discussion).
- Location
- madison
I feel that's a general argument against any big expenditures rather than against this specific one, though I do admit that most big tempting shines tend to have to much support to sway the thread against.
- Location
- Middlesbrough
[X] Plan Sustainable
[X] Plan Sustainable
- Location
- Elsewhere
[X] Plan Sustainable
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
[X] Plan Basic (say goodbye to EM)
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
This is a really bad reason to not buy the Wards. It's basically arguing for the other high cost ezpense and sigh-
I mean this is basically a vote for APA. The cool shiny option. The hilariously expensive option. The one which improves a few elites which were recently gutted twice.
I mean seriously. Of ALL the things you could practice fiscal tightening on, the option which dramatically reduces deathrates per turn? Seriously?
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- Location
- UK
@Shard Although I initially argued quite firmly against your plan, I'm now second guessing myself.
In terms of making the case for it, I think it depends on whether our current wave of Hive constructions will leave sufficient room for population growth to boost the economy to the point where further military and civilian projects are affordable. If that is the case, then the reduced attrition from rogue psykers and cultists may be the quickest way to grow our population and economy, and in turn would ultimately allow us to afford even more stuff further down the line.
However, if there is a threshold that we'll reach sooner, then it will mean that our economic and population growth will ultimately be constrained, as we won't be able to afford new building projects. This would, of course, also mean that major military projects would not be affordable either.
Unfortunately, I'm not really sure where to start digging in the threadmarks for this information directly. If someone could quote the relevant figures, that would be very helpful indeed.
In terms of making the case for it, I think it depends on whether our current wave of Hive constructions will leave sufficient room for population growth to boost the economy to the point where further military and civilian projects are affordable. If that is the case, then the reduced attrition from rogue psykers and cultists may be the quickest way to grow our population and economy, and in turn would ultimately allow us to afford even more stuff further down the line.
However, if there is a threshold that we'll reach sooner, then it will mean that our economic and population growth will ultimately be constrained, as we won't be able to afford new building projects. This would, of course, also mean that major military projects would not be affordable either.
Unfortunately, I'm not really sure where to start digging in the threadmarks for this information directly. If someone could quote the relevant figures, that would be very helpful indeed.
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- Location
- UK
Hey guys, sorry to nag, but it would probably be a good idea if you updated your votes to make everything tally nicely, since Shard made a tiny change to the plan, and now your votes are counted separately.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Avernus Prime Population is about ~28 Billion. Dis Huge Hive Expansion will leave space for about 100 Billion - The threshold won't be reached for a very long time. The rest of of cities (1 Large Hive, 25 Small Hives + 3 Small Hives, 5 Major Cities) add up to 38.5 Billion population capacity. There's room to triple our population there, and if we are judicious in building up (Bigger Hives) as opposed to out (More cities) which is generally more efficient anyway, the maintenance cost will slowly decrease. At the moment, with the partial maintainence clause in the plan, we'll play about 500k EM as opposed to 680k EM per year.
In general, Hive expansions are very cheap options, I've been arguing for them for a very long time now. They're expedited whenever possible for this reason. In specific, only Helguard Shocktrooper, Helguard Trooper and Helguard cost bombs of EM. They have a combined maint cost of somewhere like 1.44 Million EM per year, except that the Trust is subsidizing all of it.
I note that there's enough of a Soul stockpile that it won't overly affect next turn's EM production, at which point we can go into the Trade Turn. Talks of Emergency Trade is crazy, we don't even have enough action to spend the EM on APA if we wanted to.
(Also the improved population growth from Wards will solve the EM maintainence cost by itself. In the hypothetical where we are at our population cap, all else equal, we generate enough souls to pay for Siren maintainence.)
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Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
That's crazy. The whole point of the Siren Trade is so the Sirens do the option, pay for it.
Than why do we have actions on the cost? I am waiting to hear back from Durin on that.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
...So we can do it ourselves if we choose not to pay the Sirens. I thought the description made that pretty clear.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
You even have your maths wrong. The maint cost is 1.5 Billion Thrones, the cost for doing it ourselves is 31 Billion.
We have actions on the cost because we might want to do them.. ourselves? There are maintenance costs so we can evaluate the value of 'Ward Maintainence'?
It's actively disingenuous to interpret that we have to pay for the action.
sabreFather
Dr Pepper is the flavour that I savour
- Location
- Land of Bears and Loggers AKA Oregon
What Shard and Byzantine said, Durin gave us a preview of the Actions so that we could review them for the costs.
Obviously we are going to disagree. I don't want us to blow our economic wad on a thing now when we absolutely know the players will harangue you and the other plan makers to start on other high expense projects while ignoring the fact that we can't fucking afford them without needing to do emergency trading. And since the Trust just came off a major war and Avernus is also still rebuilding from the Golden Skies, resources are going to be tight. So as is, I am voting against your plan because I'd rather we not risk bankruptcy because people care more for high expense projects and not about those "little meaningless numbers" we call resources. And no, we will run out of souls to trade before the Council trade after next no matter the trade plan, so we will wind up paying out of pocket no matter what. I'd rather take the option that does not risk bankruptcy if Avernus somehow loses access to trade. We've been lucky that we haven't been hit by any warp storms since we rejoined the Galaxy, and I would rather have enough resources/economic production that we won't need to do more than pause construction or mothball stuff. Slight bit of paranoia right here, mind, but still a valid concern of the setting.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
If we lose access to trade due to warpstorms we are already beyond fucked no matter how we arrange our expenditures and would need to completely revamp our economic system. Like for starters the Trust would not be subsidizing our APA shit and we would probably have to mothball them.
Realistically speaking at that point we would probably have to break out the Men of Stone or go down a tier approximately everywhere.
So, just so you can stop blaming people willy-nilly. It was me. I'm the one who asked for the Titan Manufactorum, when we got it. Still think it was worthwhile mind, even with having to do the emergency trade. Though I might not have asked about it if I'd realized at the time that we didn't have the RM for it.