The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

[agumentic]

I'm ambivalent. Thunder Warriors seem fairly useful as an emergency source of inefficiently produced elites, as well as anti-psyker work.

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They might, but I don't think that the eve of the existential threat is a right place to get them.

 

[sabreFather]

[X] Plan Shard T127
Not gonna weigh in on the argument. Seriously, calm down.

 

[Andres]

They might, but I don't think that the eve of the existential threat is a right place to get them.

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On the eve of a war is exactly the time that Thunder Warriors are meant to be made.

 

[Enjou]

People talking down on the Thunder Warriors I see. I guess I should address this.

Here's the most important issue, I think...

Oh, by the way, a minor point I wanted to get out there. A squad of Thunder Warriors will never be as effective as a squad of Astartes at the same level of veterancy and technology when it comes to war. This isn't me dissing Thunderwarriors, transhuman murderblenders that they are, but it's because Space Marines always count as one 'size group' higher than they actually are. One Astartes counts as a squad, one squad counts as the size group above it, etc etc. Thunder Warriors do not have this advantage. I don't believe this matter much in 1v1s, but it's a big bonus when it comes to counting if they're outnumbered or not.

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This is completely irrelevant to Avernus. Avernus is not, will not, and will almost certainly never be producing Astartes for its military. It's been said that we've got tons of supersoldiers already, but we really don't. Avernus has the Last Hunters, but they aren't producible in any kind of mass numbers. So if we want large numbers of supersoldiers for Avernus, the Thunder Warriors are our best best. We've also got a deal with the Nynye to have them help with a couple of supersoldier projects, and improving an existing supersoldier created by the Emperor is going to be a lot easier than building something from scratch.

Further, Astartes will always be limited in number by the number of Chapters we have in the Trust. The updated Codex Astartes we're using has a Chapter size going to around 20,000 Astartes. We do not have such limits with Thunder Warriors.

I think part of our problem here is that we've been working with descriptors that seem to be fairly bland, so I think we might want to ask some comparative questions with regards to our own military.

@Durin
1. Hypothetically, how much more or less effective would a regiment of Thunder Warriors be compared to a freshly promoted Helguard Regiment?
2. The same, but comparing a veteran regiment of Thunder Warriors to a veteran regiment of Helguard?

 

[agumentic]

On the eve of a war is exactly the time that Thunder Warriors are meant to be made.

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Made, maybe, but it's not the time to create a new unit with new SOP. When all of this is made, then they can serve as emergency elite, but it's not developed now, and now is not the time to start the development.

Further, Astartes will always be limited in number by the number of Chapters we have in the Trust. The updated Codex Astartes we're using has a Chapter size going to around 20,000 Astartes. We do not have such limits with Thunder Warriors.

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I don't think Lords of Terra are going to return from their graves and call a crusade on us if we just continue making Astartes from Varangian Guard geneseed, but will assign them to a new chapter for ease of operations.

 

[Enjou]

I don't think Lords of Terra are going to return from their graves and call a crusade on us if we just continue making Astartes from Varangian Guard geneseed, but will assign them to a new chapter for ease of operations.

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While I presume the Trust will make new Chapters, I do not presume it will make new Chapters endlessly. There are limits to how many Astartes Chapters the Trust can and will support.

 

[agumentic]

While I presume the Trust will make new Chapters, I do not presume it will make new Chapters endlessly. There are limits to how many Astartes Chapters the Trust can and will support.

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If we're at a point where we can't afford more Astartes, Thunder Warriors are competing with Astartes for resources, and so it would be better to have less or no TW. I don't think we're reaching that point ever though.

 

[Durin]

People talking down on the Thunder Warriors I see. I guess I should address this.

Here's the most important issue, I think...



This is completely irrelevant to Avernus. Avernus is not, will not, and will almost certainly never be producing Astartes for its military. It's been said that we've got tons of supersoldiers already, but we really don't. Avernus has the Last Hunters, but they aren't producible in any kind of mass numbers. So if we want large numbers of supersoldiers for Avernus, the Thunder Warriors are our best best. We've also got a deal with the Nynye to have them help with a couple of supersoldier projects, and improving an existing supersoldier created by the Emperor is going to be a lot easier than building something from scratch.

Further, Astartes will always be limited in number by the number of Chapters we have in the Trust. The updated Codex Astartes we're using has a Chapter size going to around 20,000 Astartes. We do not have such limits with Thunder Warriors.

I think part of our problem here is that we've been working with descriptors that seem to be fairly bland, so I think we might want to ask some comparative questions with regards to our own military.

@Durin
1. Hypothetically, how much more or less effective would a regiment of Thunder Warriors be compared to a freshly promoted Helguard Regiment?
2. The same, but comparing a veteran regiment of Thunder Warriors to a veteran regiment of Helguard?

Click to shrink...

1. more effective by price
2. less effective by price
I am comparing to same cost of Helguard rather then same number

 

[Doomed Wombat]

I am comparing to same cost of Helguard rather then same number

Click to shrink...

@Durin
1. How much of that cost imbalance is due to the advanced juvnat the Thunder Warriors require?
2. What does Vlad give HWWO's chances of successfully nabbing Nid bits up to the level of Norn queen based on his experience with HWWO?
3. The same as the above, but with support from Ridcully in the effort.

 

[Enjou]

If we're at a point where we can't afford more Astartes, Thunder Warriors are competing with Astartes for resources, and so it would be better to have less or no TW. I don't think we're reaching that point ever though.

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The big limiting factor for Astartes Chapters is worlds for them to call home and rule. We want our Astartes Chapters strongly bound to the Trust, not a bunch of wandering fleet Chapters who will just be able and willing to leave if they don't like how things are going. There are a limited number of prospects for that. At best, we'll have one Chapter per sub-sector, but it will likely end up being less.

And as I've said, for the resources we have on Avernus, we quite simply will not be producing Astartes to begin with. Comparisons are better made to things that we can and will be able to produce, rather than things we will not.

1. more effective by price
2. less effective by price
I am comparing to same cost of Helguard rather then same number

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@Durin - Follow ups...
1. Is the price difference due to maintenance cost differences?
2. If the Thunder Warriors had their issues fixed, how would this change?
2. What about by numbers? (which is what I was asking about to begin with) Just a rough guesstimate of how many times more effective would be fine.

 

[Nurgle]

Interesting watching fear of lost opportunity in life. Ok let's look at what we do. Let's say we miss out on studying 4 creatures. Now if we studying a creature for the psykers power we unlock a telepathica action than Maybe a Admin action. Looking at illusionary pines and that one study for defense we have not done in decades. Still need to implant them. Now sometimes we luck out and get nogs, which turn out to be valuable and a stable of the food industry. The thing is with the thunder warrior is that we can start to figure out the flaws they have in a little over two decades. At worst the Tryanids will not threaten the trust for 3 decades (this being worst case scenario) which means we would have 8 years to start fixing flaws but we do have the Nyne on hand.

 

[Enerael]

Gravitic array programming is great, but it's much more limited. It needs very expensive ships that take a long time to make, and each of those ships can only cover one system at a time, and a whole buttload of data on those systems needs to be gathered too. Melta round impalers, on the other hand, would benefit nearly the entirety of the Imperial Trust and be relatively quick to implement on a large scale.

And quite frankly we don't know what the tyranids will be like. The War in the Void would've changed them and hive ships greatly differ in specialty from each other besides that.

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Melta impaler rounds? Are you aware that Impalers fire rounds the size of a sewing needles or smaller?

They can and will fire larger ones with specialist munition, but melta?

And we don't even use the things! And melta is not great against known Tyranids anyway.

Also a complete waste of Tranths specialities.

 

[Durin]

@Durin
1. How much of that cost imbalance is due to the advanced juvnat the Thunder Warriors require?
2. What does Vlad give HWWO's chances of successfully nabbing Nid bits up to the level of Norn queen based on his experience with HWWO?
3. The same as the above, but with support from Ridcully in the effort.

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1. a decent amount
2. two in three, almost certain to survive though
3. better

The big limiting factor for Astartes Chapters is worlds for them to call home and rule. We want our Astartes Chapters strongly bound to the Trust, not a bunch of wandering fleet Chapters who will just be able and willing to leave if they don't like how things are going. There are a limited number of prospects for that. At best, we'll have one Chapter per sub-sector, but it will likely end up being less.

And as I've said, for the resources we have on Avernus, we quite simply will not be producing Astartes to begin with. Comparisons are better made to things that we can and will be able to produce, rather than things we will not.




@Durin - Follow ups...
1. Is the price difference due to maintenance cost differences?
2. If the Thunder Warriors had their issues fixed, how would this change?
2. What about by numbers? (which is what I was asking about to begin with) Just a rough guesstimate of how many times more effective would be fine.

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1. a decent amount is
2. unknown until you know how the fix works
3. numbers they would be around ten times as effective as otherwise, though you will lose several recruits per Thunder Warrior who survives implantation. Numbers does not matter in any way though, at the number of Thunder Warriors that you can reach you so many people that numbers does not matter

Interesting watching fear of lost opportunity in life. Ok let's look at what we do. Let's say we miss out on studying 4 creatures. Now if we studying a creature for the psykers power we unlock a telepathica action than Maybe a Admin action. Looking at illusionary pines and that one study for defense we have not done in decades. Still need to implant them. Now sometimes we luck out and get nogs, which turn out to be valuable and a stable of the food industry. The thing is with the thunder warrior is that we can start to figure out the flaws they have in a little over two decades. At worst the Tryanids will not threaten the trust for 3 decades (this being worst case scenario) which means we would have 8 years to start fixing flaws but we do have the Nyne on hand.

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and it will take at least 25 years to fix any of the flaws, best case

 

[agumentic]

The big limiting factor for Astartes Chapters is worlds for them to call home and rule. We want our Astartes Chapters strongly bound to the Trust, not a bunch of wandering fleet Chapters who will just be able and willing to leave if they don't like how things are going.

Click to shrink...

[Citation needed]. Why would Astartes that we trained and instilled loyalty in would be all that more likely to leave than our fleet, or Astartes ships we have currently? Giving Fjol IV to Julius and the rest was not a necessity in the first place, and he wandered the galaxy for nine hundred years before coming to us, and thus was much more likely to move. Not to mention that there's a variety of other arrangements, not just fleet Chapters.

 

[DragonParadox]

[X] Enjou

I have no interest in poking more random animals when we are about to get into a three-way fight to the death. This is the time to look into super-soldiers.

 

[Nurgle]

@Durin would fixing the flaws be Biologis action or telepathica with Alkhaestry?

 

[DkArthas]

[X] Enjou

I have no interest in poking more random animals when we are about to get into a three-way fight to the death. This is the time to look into super-soldiers.

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...Shards plan is the one looking into mass producing those super soldiers while Enjou's tries to fix their flaws Which at best will take half a century.

 

[Nurgle]

...Shards plan is the one looking into mass producing those super soldiers while Enjou's tries to fix their flaws.

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Both plans are mass producing them please do not misinform people.

 

[DragonParadox]

...Shards plan is the one looking into mass producing those super soldiers while Enjou's tries to fix their flaws.

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I think it is a good idea to at least know what the flaws are before beginning production too.

 

[DkArthas]

Both plans are mass producing them please do not misinform people.

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*looks back at Enjoy's plan*. I apologize, didn't see the personal attention Section properly.

Adhoc vote count started by DkArthas on Mar 26, 2019 at 8:43 AM, finished with 493 posts and 35 votes.

• ---

  17 people have voted

  [X] Plan Shard T127

  • Shard
  • Angelform
  • SirHades2.0
  • NotteBoy97
  • MonkeyTypewriter
  • random_npc
  • Richiecorus
  • Romans
  • Execute/Dumbo
  • notanautomaton
  • NPC45
  • John Masaki
  • DkArthas
  • Andres
  • inverted_helix
  • Dragon_352
  • sabreFather

  14 people have voted

  [X] Plan Enjou T127

  • Enjou
  • Nurgle
  • huntsman0697
  • Adventwolf
  • Azgrin
  • Red Bovine
  • Ruirk
  • Klaus Wulfenback
  • Riggnarock
  • godofsmallthings
  • Heavenly Body
  • Nianque
  • DragonParadox
  • Artemis1992

  1 people have voted

  [X] Plan Andres T127

  • xXxBlueViperxXx

  1 people have voted

  [X] Plan Enerael T127

  • Enerael

 

[Shard]

@Durin

1. How much does it cost to produce 1 Astartes (as according to VG) as compared to 1 Thunder Warrior?
2. How much older are veteran Helguard as compared to standard Helguard, averaged time?

 

[Enerael]

I am fed up with the available plans.

[X] Plan Enerael T127

Munitorum
SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1: Djinn Skein Gladiatoria: Military

Void Command
SLOT A - Year 4
-Y4: Construct: Skeid Military Transport
-- EXPEDITE YEAR 4
SLOT B - Year 3
-Y3: Shield Capacitors
SLOT C - Year 5
-Y5: Expand Shipyards: Large
-- EXPEDITE YEAR 5

Administratum
SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1: Knight Landhold
SLOT B - Year 2
-Y2: Technological Improvements: (Food)
SLOT C - Year 3
-Y5: Technological Improvements: (Food)

Diplomacy
SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1: Trade Talks (Vanaheim, Build Black Ships)
-Y2: Re-Examine (Governor Bertil of Vanaheim)
-Y3: Ask Areatha: Helping with the Vault Wards?
-Y4: Nynye Trade (Nynye creating a poison specific to the Tyranid Spliter Hive coming?)
-Y5: Ask Vlad (Are there any predators which favor Hive-Minds?)

Arbites
SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1: Expand Psyker Hunters
-- EXPEDITE YEAR 1
SLOT B - Year 1
-Y1-Y5: Greater Psyker Hunting

AdMech
SLOT A - Year 1 (Explorator)
-Y2: Special Issue Impaler
-Y5: Gravitic Array: Programming
SLOT B - Year 3 (Biologis)
-Y3: Complete Examination (Utter Bastard Dragons)
SLOT C - Year 2 (Free)
-Y1: Investigate Battle Automata
-Y5: Technological Improvements: (Advanced Material)
Ministorum
SLOT A - Year 2
-Y2: Expand Witch Hunters
-- EXPEDITE YEAR 2
SLOT B - Year 3
-Y3: On Created Gods
-- DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 3
-Y5: Cleanse World (Moderate)

Astra Telepathica
SLOT A - Year 1 (Ridcully)
-Y1: Greater Divination (Waaagh Urkozz)
-- DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 1
-Y2: Greater Divination (Infitrators in the Dragon's Nest)
-- DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 2
-Y3: Mentoring: Alpha
-Y4: IF EMERGENCY COUNCIL IS OK: Spreading the Word
ELSE: Warp Echo (Human Blood, Adamantium)
-- DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 4
SLOT C - Year 4 (Tamia)
-Y4: Research (Shrine Fairies)
-Y5: Implement (Bridge Rune)
SLOT D - Year 5 (Aria)
-Y5: Ward Vault (Dis)
-- DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 5
SLOT E - Free Divination
-Y?: Greater Divination (Incoming Hive Fleet)

Personal
SLOT A - Year 2
-Y2: Personal Attention: Implement (Psychic Cannon)
SLOT B - Year 2
-Y2: Personal Attention: Nightingale Brigade
SLOT D - Year 1
-Y1: Spend Time With (Syr and Sigmund)
-Y2: Spend Time With (Our Family)
-Y3: Attend Emergency High Council Meeting
-Y4: Spend Time With (Our Grandson)
-Y5: Spend Time With (Our Grandson)


Modified Shard plan, modification is in bold. Edit: At this point it is a Enjoy/Shard hybrid + my own modifications, to marking the differences from Shards plans makes little sense.

Might tweak Diplo actions some, they do not seem entirely optimal.

 

[Artemis1992]

[X] Enjou

 

[Nurgle]

I am fed up with the available plans.

[X] Plan Enerael T127

Munitorum
SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1: Djinn Skein Gladiatoria: Military

Void Command
SLOT A - Year 4
-Y4: Construct: Skeid Military Transport
-- EXPEDITE YEAR 4
SLOT B - Year 3
-Y3: Shield Capacitors
SLOT C - Year 5
-Y5: Expand Shipyards: Large
-- EXPEDITE YEAR 5

Administratum
SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1: Knight Landhold
SLOT B - Year 2
-Y2: Technological Improvements: (Food)
SLOT C - Year 3
-Y5: Technological Improvements: (Food)

Diplomacy
SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1: Trade Talks (Vanaheim, Build Black Ships)
-Y2: Re-Examine (Governor Bertil of Vanaheim)
-Y3: Ask Areatha: Helping with the Vault Wards?
-Y4: Nynye Trade (Nynye creating a poison specific to the Tyranid Spliter Hive coming?)
-Y5: Ask Vlad (Are there any predators which favor Hive-Minds?)

Arbites
SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1: Expand Psyker Hunters
-- EXPEDITE YEAR 1
SLOT B - Year 1
-Y1-Y5: Greater Psyker Hunting

AdMech
SLOT A - Year 1 (Explorator)
-Y2: Special Issue Impaler
-Y5: Gravitic Array: Programming
SLOT B - Year 3 (Biologis)
-Y3: Complete Examination (Utter Bastard Dragons)
SLOT C - Year 2 (Free)
-Y2: Investigate Battle Automata

Ministorum
SLOT A - Year 2
-Y2: Expand Witch Hunters
-- EXPEDITE YEAR 2
SLOT B - Year 3
-Y3: On Created Gods
-- DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 3
-Y5: Cleanse World (Moderate)

Astra Telepathica
SLOT A - Year 1 (Ridcully)
-Y1: Greater Divination (Incoming Hive Fleet)
-- DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 1
-Y2: Greater Divination (Infitrators in the Dragon's Nest)
-- DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 2
-Y3: Mentoring: Alpha
-Y4: IF EMERGENCY COUNCIL IS OK: Spreading the Word
ELSE: Warp Echo (Human Blood, Adamantium)
-- DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 4
SLOT C - Year 4 (Tamia)
-Y4: Research (Shrine Fairies)
-Y5: Implement (Bridge Rune)
SLOT D - Year 5 (Aria)
-Y5: Ward Vault (Dis)
-- DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 5
SLOT E - Free Divination
-Y?: Greater Divination (Waaagh Urkozz)

Personal
SLOT A - Year 2
-Y2: Personal Attention: Implement (Psychic Cannon)
SLOT B - Year 2
-Y2: Personal Attention: Nightingale Brigade
SLOT D - Year 1
-Y1: Spend Time With (Syr and Sigmund)
-Y2: Spend Time With (Our Family)
-Y3: Attend Emergency High Council Meeting
-Y4: Spend Time With (Our Grandson)
-Y5: Spend Time With (Our Grandson)


Modified Shard plan, modifications in bold.

Might tweak Diplo actions some, they do not seem optimal.

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You can not do the Waagh in the free divination slot because it is less than 1000 lightyears other wise looks good.

 

[Durin]

@Durin

1. How much does it cost to produce 1 Astartes (as according to VG) as compared to 1 Thunder Warrior?
2. How much older are veteran Helguard as compared to standard Helguard, averaged time?

Click to shrink...

1. less
2. 102 years, currently your Helguard are recruited in their 80s on average and reach an average of 182 years