Light is the best choice for a war of attrition, but only if we have enough ambush opportunities to take out the entire fleet with Light, which we don't. If we pick Light, we'll do too little damage by the time they reach us in force, at which point we'll lose A LOT more ships than we otherwise would've. We're a lot stronger in the ambush phase than we are in the main phase so we should play to that advantage as hard as we can.
You've taken that sentence out of context. I said that Svartfelheim is the most suited planet for a naval war of attrition. The reasoning here is that its cities are all high defense and underground which severely limits what naval superiority can give the orks.
Your argument is that we get a +to our rolls (I guess?) so we should go all in on those rolls.
All evidence previously has suggested that naval phases can be spread over a lot of time even after the ambushes are completed.
You seem to think it will be Ambush -> Ambush -> Line of battle. And that whoever wins the final battle takes all.
However literally the only time we've ever seen it play out like that was that one Tyranid fleet that rolled so badly it never got to land.
I'm thinking it will be Ambush -> Ambush -> Harass while Orcs are coming into the gravity well. -> Harass while the Orcs are landing. -> Harass while the Orcs are bombarding./ Bait them into chasing us around the system. -> Repeat the previous set as many times as wanted. -> Line of battle.
There is a reason I'm suggesting this for Svartfelheim rather than Vanaheim.
You've taken that sentence out of context. I said that Svartfelheim is the most suited planet for a naval war of attrition. The reasoning here is that its cities are all high defense and underground which severely limits what naval superiority can give the orks.
Your argument is that we get a +to our rolls (I guess?) so we should go all in on those rolls.
All evidence previously has suggested that naval phases can be spread over a lot of time even after the ambushes are completed.
You seem to think it will be Ambush -> Ambush -> Line of battle. And that whoever wins the final battle takes all.
However literally the only time we've ever seen it play out like that was that one Tyranid fleet that rolled so badly it never got to land.
I'm thinking it will be Ambush -> Ambush -> Harass while Orcs are coming into the gravity well. -> Harass while the Orcs are landing. -> Harass while the Orcs are bombarding./ Bait them into chasing us around the system. -> Repeat the previous set as many times as wanted. -> Line of battle.
There is a reason I'm suggesting this for Svartfelheim rather than Vanaheim.
These unremarkable-looking weapons consist of a simple hollow barrel with a rectangular stock, revealing no sign of their true age or origin. They are assumed to be of human origin, if only because the weapon conforms to standard human physiology.
Pretty much this^^ Your reaonsing isn't thinking up the big picture and thinking long term. It's also not taking into account that we may get unexpectedly attacked(again) right after we suffered fatigue. Look at another way, just because you have the best soldier available for combat doesn't mean that it's not an idiotic idea to constantly send them into heavy combat until they are heavily fatigued leading to their perfomance to suffer making them worse at their jobs instead of letting your other soldiers fight.
Except in this case we can't pull all of our people off of Avernus because they are heavily fatigued should we get invaded right afterwards leading to our people to fight with bad debuffs because people weren't thinking of the big picture and thinking ahead.
From a practical stand point it just seems like it would make sense to avoid sending wars to any planet that has just suffered fatigue to avoid build up. Avernus included. I mean it seems people are suffering from protaganist syndrome in which players always think they are the only ones that can handle things all the time. Because if we weren't playing Avernus think more people would be against the idea of constantly sending every single invasion to the same exact planet which would lead to heavy fatigue and them actually being worse at their job long term and leaving them far more vulnerable.
Like seriously, it seems like it would make way more sense to just after this talk to the council into investing into more defenses for some of the other core worlds so that we can send invaders like Waaagh's to at least two other places in rotations to avoid war fatigue. Examples being improving Void defensens for our space marines homeworld and making sure that Vanaheim gets rid of it's vulnerabilities with their space infrastructure because seriously what the hell? It's been hundreds of years and even Avernites were smart enough to remove their void vulnerabilities.
the issue is that with shipyards the size of Vanaheim it is basically impossible to stop them from being a vulnerability. the best you can do is protect them with massive of defences and minefields which is what they have done. Avernus protected their by moving them away from Avernus, which is the main target for attacks but Vanaheim could not do the same as the shipyards are likely to be the main target
Adhoc vote count started by Durin on Apr 27, 2018 at 3:44 AM, finished with 199 posts and 15 votes.
[X] Plan Three Options
-[X] In all the below options, use maximum ambushes. Admiral Sarnow is the best at this, and when combined with Divination and the enemy's stupidity this option is better than it normally would be.
-[X] Option 1: Void War, Vanaheim
--[X] Use Vanaheim's superior defences along with the Trust's various fleets to defeat the enemy in the void. Will keep the war on the shorter end most likely, provided victory is attained. Ork fleet will be mainly commanded by the stupid warboss, allowing the Trust to maximize its advantage in command, and allows liberal use of diviners. Fleet casualties will likely be highest with this option.
-[X] Option 2: Ground War, Svartalfheim
--[X] Svartalfheim possesses a large number of cities with heavy fortifications, and the stupid Warboss could be tempted to split his forces inefficiently, though lesser warbands will likely be beter commanded. Enemy fleet will have to be dealt with gradually, with little damage being done due to weaker orbital defences. Ground casualties will be highest with this option.
-[X] Option 3: Middle Ground, Avernus
--[X] Decent orbital defenses coupled with strong ground defenses and militia splits the difference between the above options. Smaller number of cities than Svartalfheim, but more hives. Wildlife may be helpful, and could present opportunities to divert Ork forces into foolish moves. Planet may react if the Orks are perceived as a threat, though that can't be guaranteed nor should it be made the case intentionally. Fleet and ground casualties split.
I know what's in them, but you are hardily denying my point. More advanced things in 40K tend towards things that come from higher sci fi, hell even GW seems to agree just look at the stuff they're throwing out for the Primaris marines and if that's not enough look at any vehicle that is stated to be dark age advanced like the Fellblade.
And yes compared to the Imperium that is shiny and sleet, and evident ally you agreed it worked, you were the one that came up with this
I'd say it works pretty well, looking cool, not too SC, 40K in there too (the back pack power source for example) but absolutely no Imperium to be found.
@Durin
1. I recall you saying that ship yards are very tough in what range are we looking at?
The Fourth Emergency High Council Meeting Part Three: Plans
-[X] In all the below options, use maximum ambushes. Admiral Sarnow is the best at this, and when combined with Divination and the enemy's stupidity this option is better than it normally would be.
-[X] Option 1: Void War, Vanaheim
--[X] Use Vanaheim's superior defences along with the Trust's various fleets to defeat the enemy in the void. Will keep the war on the shorter end most likely, provided victory is attained. Ork fleet will be mainly commanded by the stupid warboss, allowing the Trust to maximize its advantage in command, and allows liberal use of diviners. Fleet casualties will likely be highest with this option.
-[X] Option 2: Ground War, Svartalfheim
--[X] Svartalfheim possesses a large number of cities with heavy fortifications, and the stupid Warboss could be tempted to split his forces inefficiently, though lesser warbands will likely be beter commanded. Enemy fleet will have to be dealt with gradually, with little damage being done due to weaker orbital defences. Ground casualties will be highest with this option.
-[X] Option 3: Middle Ground, Avernus
--[X] Decent orbital defenses coupled with strong ground defenses and militia splits the difference between the above options. Smaller number of cities than Svartalfheim, but more hives. Wildlife may be helpful, and could present opportunities to divert Ork forces into foolish moves. Planet may react if the Orks are perceived as a threat, though that can't be guaranteed nor should it be made the case intentionally. Fleet and ground casualties split.
You put forward three plans, each of which relied on heavy ambushes to inflict major damage to the Orks before they reached the system. Admiral Freyr put forward an alternate to your second plan.
Your first plan is to defeat them in the void, using the combined strength of the Imperial Trust's fleets and the orbital defences of Vanaheim as well as your massive command advantages to crush their fleets. This plan will result in major damage to your fleet, creating an extended period of vulnerability for the Trust and a major expense. It will also risk damage to the shipyards of Vanaheim which will be needed to rebuild your fleet. On the upside by taking out the Orks in space you reduce the benefit that they gain from the Waaagh field, make the best use of your command superiority and prevent them from causing major damage with their hordes of ground forces.
Voting For: Governor-General Aelfric of Midgard, First Artisan Granalf of Svartalfheim, Champion Surt of Muspelheim
Your second plan is to direct the Orks to Svartalfheim, where the cities will be able to withstand a sustained siege while your fleet slowly grinds down the Orks fleet. This will force you to face the Orks on the ground, however the extensive fortifications of the Svartalfar cities will allow you to mitigate the damage your ground forces suffer. This option will take longer and cost the lives of many of your soldiers but will allow your fleet to suffer less casualties then any other option.
Voting For: Lord-Marshal Sigurd of Asgard,
Admiral Freyr put forward a modification to this plan that uses light ambushes of the Ork fleet rather then heavy ambushes. He tells you that while the lighter ambushes will result in more Orks reaching Svartalfheim they will result in less overall damage done to the Imperial Trust's fleets.
Voting For: Admiral Freyr, Inquisitor Varquez , Fabricator-General Scott
Your third plan is to pure the Orks to Avernus, where the orbital defences will allow your fleets to make a limited stand and the shipyards at Deiphobe will be able to conduct repairs, and resupply their munitions if needed. Once the Orks land they will be facing one of the best defended worlds in the Imperial Trust, and one where they can suffer major losses to the wildlife if they make a mistake. With this plan casualties will be split between the fleets and the ground forces, with some additional damage being inflicted on the cities of Avernus.
Voting For: Bertil Mikaelsson of Vanaheim, King Zaren of Alfheim, Chapter Master Julius
Abstaining: Governor Ulric of Nilfheim (undecided), Governor Garp of Jotunheim (will follow your lead)
You will have to decide which plan to vote for an any arguments to try and sway others to follow your lead.
Admiral Freyr put forward a modification to this plan that uses light ambushes of the Ork fleet rather then heavy ambushes. He tells you that while the lighter ambushes will result in more Orks reaching Svartalfheim they will result in less overall damage done to the Imperial Trust's fleets.
I remain in favour of this. We need to preserve our fleet more than we need to limit casualties and Avernus is looking a bit battered. That the head of the Trust military thinks it wise is a persuasive argument.
Have to wonder if Bertil is voting as he is because he genuinely thinks it is for the best or because he wants to see Avernus hit by yet another invasion.
Let's not risk the Trust's Shipyards or it's main AM/EM production. Avernus is the ideal planet to be invaded, we even just finished a project to reduce costs from invadion.
It's even the environment with the highest amounts of ways one can fuckup and lose an army to Sun Beetles, for example.
Having said that, didn't our fight in Mar Sara suggest that hitting Orks with ambushes as being not the best idea? If only I wasn't so busy the past few days..
Remember any planet they make fall on an Orkoid ecosystem will be formed, which will be there forever essentially. Vanaheim and the Svarts (iirc) don't have this problem and I'm hesitant to ask it of them.
Remember any planet they make fall on an Orkoid ecosystem will be formed, which will be there forever essentially. Vanaheim and the Svarts (iirc) don't have this problem and I'm hesitant to ask it of them.
Why would Fredrick be any more soft on other citizens of the Trust than his own citizens? If we can condemn tens of thousands of Avernites to horrific deaths daily how can we hold other lives in greater esteem without betraying their sacrifice?
Why would Fredrick be any more soft on other citizens of the trust than his own citizens? If we can condemn tens of thousands of Avernites to horrific deaths daily how can we hold other lives in greater esteem without betraying their sacrifice?
Id just rather them not have to devote any resources to Orkoid control when we already have an ecosystem established.
I'm not going to speculate on Frederick's reasoning. That said I simply believe Avernus is the best option of the three long term for the Trust. Why? Avernites have shown me time and time again they're just simply the best at holding their world against all comers. I simply believe we will do it better than them.
On a less Avernus wank note I'd rather endanger us again over the Trust's shipyards or the Svart's industry. That said if were shaping up to be taking hits this often we need to get greater subsidies from the Trust.
Vanaheim is completely out for me. The vulnerability from fleet losses, the potential of damage to the shipyard (which would exacerbate the fleet loss issues), and the presence of the Well of Urd make it all too risky for me.
I'm actually a fair bit conflicted regarding Svartalfheim versus Avernus. This warboss will make the worst decisions possible. On Avernus, that means "try and blow up the planet". Avernus will react negatively and destroy the entire Waaagh, which while beneficial in the short-term is very much not ideal. We want the warboss to live. If the warboss goes to Svartalfheim, destroying the planet would be a pretty decent idea, so the warboss will in all likelihood not do it.
On ork ecosystems, it may be possible to destroy an ork ecosystem on Svartalfheim. They have the technology for it and we can even lend them our diviners to help locate feral orks ASAP. It's not like Avernus where our reach is very limited because of the wildlife.
On ork ecosystems, it may be possible to destroy an ork ecosystem on Svartalfheim. They have the technology for it and we can even lend them our diviners to help locate feral orks ASAP. It's not like Avernus where our reach is very limited because of the wildlife.
Pre awakening I'd have agreed with you, but now unless we're willing to go full tomb world on Svartalfheim I don't think we can get rid of an ork infestation and keep using the world.
Pre awakening I'd have agreed with you, but now unless we're willing to go full tomb world on Svartalfheim I don't think we can get rid of an ork infestation and keep using the world.
1. If an ork ecosystem is established on Svartalfheim, would their technology allow them to locate and destroy feral orks quickly enough to destroy the ecosystem?
2. If their tech is insufficient, would assistance by some of our diviners be enough?
