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This is a massive distortion of what the people who want to preserve the fleet for what they believe will be more effective and less costly engagements actually think.
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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up
- Thread starter Durin
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- Location
- madison
the issue I have with no bombardment is that depending on where our and their losses land we could find ourselves in a position where we can't stop them from landing another few waves of troops. We need to keep our fleet intact enough to prevent them from landing all 5 waves of troops, and that means we need to avoid taking crippling losses right now. It's compromising our ability to achieve actual objectives for a chance to kill enemy forces that don't need to die right this instant. we have reserves that could tip the scales in our favor, we don't need to make a desperate last stand.
Doomed Wombat
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In this case I'm just ranting, because I'm actually agreeing with those guys hence why I'm voting for the plan.
Immature I know.
Hence why I've changed from voting for no bombardment to the other one.
I still think everyone is really underestimating how much damage we could do if no bombardment wins though while overestimating how much damage we will take especially since Folkvarngar will be involved, support from the ground, the mine field, the defences and exploiting the plan AND support from Ridcully.
+Sarnow isn't dumb/an automaton and while the plan states fight until before catastrophic losses, that shouldn't mean he won't leave if he thinks he can't do any good (for instance whittled away the fleet enough that they only have enough of a screen for the battleships and the Battlebarges (or more optimistically when his instincts tell him the moment has passed)
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I personally don't care about bombardment one way or another. I care about destroying the Abomination fleet and this plan is the one most likely to do so.
This is misleading. Firstly because most of those 'centuries' (actually only about one to one and a half) were spent building our shipyards up. Replacing our losses will go substantially faster, even accounting for the lack of graveyard. Secondly because 'other enemies' are very thin on the ground. This attack is everything that the local chaos has. The local Orks are getting their fleet obliterated by the Trust fleet. Unless the Dragons turn on us or some distant Eldar/Necron force decides to come calling there are no other enemies.
No clue where you got 'probably only taking a small chunk out of their numbers'. With the orbital and planetary defences on top of our tech and divination advantages we have at least parity and possibly an advantage. If we don't fight them then they are just going to take their fleet back out to escort the second wave of transports. But if we fight and come out of it with a superior fleet then they cannot bring in the next wave.
Counter point: If we don't deal meaningful damage to their fleet now while we have the chance then our fleet, even if completely undamaged, will be no more capable of stopping future waves that it was able to stop this one.
- Location
- madison
stopping future waves will be harassment rather than a rolling fleet battle. unless they want to move their entire fleet to the edge of the system, they will need to leave enough forces in orbit to maintain local superiority. If they have the entire fleet break off then we can have our fleet do a flyby to bombard the abomination armies on the surface. that won't work so well if our fleet gets chewed down to a nub.
ok why? we have reserve forces that could sweep them without issue. so why are you willing to bleed now rather than let them be in system until our reserves show up?
Doomed Wombat
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Won't it?
A nub is still a lot of fire power, especially if that nub includes the Folkvarnger.
I'm pretty sure the reserves are just that, reserves.
They're not coming until we call them (at least I can't think of any plans that include them showing up at X time) and if we do it'll likely mean we're in trouble,
[X] Plan Bleeding Fleet
- Location
- The Bayou, Everglades
Sure, that's a thing we should do sooner or later. But why do so right now, without the reserve fleet and therefore with significantly higher casualties? What do we gain from it?
Are you forgetting Demagoye and Turoq?
There's also Toguzak's domain to remember. And with Ridcully distracted by Gutcrumpa and Valinor, he's not had much time to fan the flames. They'll soon be an issue.
Let Valinor commit too much into this invasion, so much that they can't split their attacks. At that point we bring in the reserve fleet, leaving them no way to bring more troops in.
Their sheer numbers. And they only need to take out one set of orbitals before moving on to the next set, so the planetary defences aren't going to get a lot of time to work with, as opposed to if the enemy fleet tried to bombard our extremely fortified cities into submission. And we don't have very many orbitals around Avernus. Dis has the biggest guns and is the only place Durin has indicated that we can hold.
Extremely unlikely, and even if it should go that well, Valinor will simply withdraw from the area our planetary and orbital defences cover while they still have a fleet to escort their army to somewhere our of range of our ground-to-void and orbital guns.
Besides, if we make it impossible for them to land troops, they become desperate and if possible proceed to crash mass conveyors with Angyls into Dis. And plan No Bombardment specifically doesn't protect us against that. We want them to attempt to do this invasion the conventional way, because that's the least threat to us.
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Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
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I'm pretty sure we've had no indication that they're even thinking about us and given that Ridcully was able to divine the intent of Valinor from his rather general scan I don't think either of them are too interested in us ATM one's finishing off their weapon the other's fortifying.
Eh, the Trust fleet can handle that much easier.
Hell the only reason what's his face is a real issue is Da Crumpa (they're still a problem don't get me wrong, but at last count they've only got 15 hulks and none as big as Death's Harbinger. Still a threat, but we should be able to handle it much better)
Mate they're committed now if they were going to split off then I weep for them, Ridcully will see it and the reserve fleet will be waiting there to gank them.
Lot of people have been saying that, but is that even an option?
Just curious, but I don't remember that ever being stated as an option.
Why?
This is only semi rhetorical we do have all the advantages save numbers in this situation.
Where, another continent
"Well done Valinor you've landed on the continent of the eternally warring lizard people, please enjoy the Titan sized lizards, firebreathing dinosaurs and trench foot for the power armour as you slog through the jungle getting eaten alive by tick tack ants."
Or maybe the giant plains where they will be assaulted by flaming fruit bats and massive herds of angry thundabeasts as the grass tries to eat them.
Or maybe the north where the lightning deer are.
(this part is mostly a joke, but if they do try to land somewhere too far from our cities then I'll be impressed if they have an army by the time they reach a city.)
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- Location
- The Bayou, Everglades
Well, most importantly because they'll retreat from any engagement that's going that wrong for them. So it's just never happening, they need that void superiority, and they have it everywhere except maybe over Dis.
Where, another continent
That's what we want.
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Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
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- Dancing on wires!
No they won't.
You seem to keep forgetting their goal here it isn't to raise avernus its to kill Lin and they're willing to sacrifice anything to do that and if they're following the Imperium as closely as they want to be then they're sure as hell not retreating now, even if that would be a smarter move.
I have to admit I don't always get that, our cities are immune to bombardment from them so the guns are never going to stop shooting them as they remain in orbit.
Which means a more target rich environment for the rest of the cities to shoot at oh wonderful.
Though on the subject of Dis I'll just put out a reminder that level 6 defences were stated to be enough to take out a battleship in a barrage (or was that Magmell...It might have been just trade fire with a battleship despite being on the ground)
Regardless we're on level seven now.
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- Location
- The Bayou, Everglades
Yes, and getting their armies on the ground is the surest means of killing him and making sure that he's actually dead. To get their armies on the ground, they need their transports to not be shot to hell, which means maintaining void superiority.
Maybe our cities can only cover a limited area? Really, the area our cities' ground-to-void guns covers should overlap pretty well, in which case Valinor would have to land outside of our colonized areas, or simply endure getting shot at while they enter the atmosphere.
Most likely the transports can simply land really fast compared to fire exchanges between cities and battleships. At that range, even big ships are pretty small targets, and our cities are very well fortified against bombardment. Or the transports and conveyors rely on smaller transport craft for atmosphere entry, which are too small for ground-to-void guns to hit profitably.
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Bombardment of armies has, without exception, been pathetically ineffective in this quest. Whether we have one third or two thirds of our fleet doing a flyby it isn't going to have much impact.
Harrassment will not stop those transports. Particularly as it is our lighter elements that are going to die first in the battle for the orbitals. Our choices will be to let them get through largely undamaged or throw our fleet at them. Much the same as was the case during the first wave.
...clearly people are working on a misconception.
The Reserves ISN'T coming to help US.
Back during the council meeting we decided that Mon Sara couldn't support all the troops we wanted on it so some would be on the planet and some would be in reserve.
Read:
No one is coming to help us. Not for months at least and possibly not for years.
If we want to stop that second wave of transports then we need to come out of this battle with a stronger fleet than our enemies. If that means spending 2/3 of our ships then so be it.
- Location
- The Bayou, Everglades
We could write-in for Sarnow to keep the lighter elements alive. I'd imagine they can keep out of the thick of the fighting, threaten the transports and keep part of the enemy fleet occupied just covering against them.
Aren't.
I don't see any part where it says they can't possibly spare reserve fleet elements for Avernus. Besides, the void battle around Mar Sara seems much more promising than the void battle here, so the fleet elements that we specifically need should be possible for Mar Sara to spare.
But we can just find out.
@Durin
1. Can we call in the reserve fleet from Vanaheim to Avernus at some point?
2. Where are the reserves stationed at?
3. If we can get reserves, how long would it take for them to arrive?
4. How do Valinor deal with our ground-to-void guns and AA when landing their troops?
5. How long do we estimate it takes for Valinor to go back and forth between Avernus and Valinor with their transports and conveyors?
Sorry for asking what the Pear Wombat already asked, but it's important.
6. If we manage to keep the orbitals over Dis, will that stop Valinor from landing their ground forces?
7. Will holding the void space over Dis meaningfully keep them from making Kamikaze attacks on Dis?
8. Are Avernus' orbital defences outside the range of the city guns?
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Doomed Wombat
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- Dancing on wires!
Don't see how they can stop us shooting the transports unless the battleships and battlebarges are literally blocking them with their bodies.
Given the size of Mass Conveyers (12-13KM+ so longer than most battleships) and the number of transports that doesn't seem practical.
They do, it was a specific point made that all our cities in a zone overlap really well to the point that most can support one another.
This effect is worst in the spine and the Isles.
As for getting their troops to the ground.
Well first our AA envelope is pretty large (800KM at its max with weapons that'll take down almost anything in one hit even super huge landers at speeds that are really ****ing hard to dodge if you're not in a drop pod)
Second our airforce is bloody dope, between the milita who are super talented and the actual air force we should be able to at least do incredibly amounts of damage on the way down.
+ unless I'm mistaken they need to land their fighters before they can contest us in the air (figha bombers from the orks can work in space not so the Imperial (abomination) ones unless I'm mistaken)
Regardless our AA envelopes means that I think the only places they can land somewhat effectively are on the borders between zones.
Won't it?
I mean if they have to hold the orbitals that will mean they will split their fleet to escort them.
Fewer ships in orbit fewer ships escorting the transports=much easier time for us to hammer them.
Ok I know I use all caps, but chill...or at least shrink it a little.
You're right, but still...
Because they're three months away as I recall.
The reserve fleet is near Mar Sara remember they're three months from us.
Again our void battle is going super well!
Seriously where is this idea that we're doing badly in this coming from we're doing really freaking well?
Still their void battle is going well too, but until Da Crumpa and Death's Harbringer 2.0 are downed they're not going anywhere me thinks.
He told us 3 months take a week or two for probably being based on Dead Man's rock IIRC.
Not too surprising it is the closet world to the blood dragons and they're a year away.
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- Location
- The Bayou, Everglades
Asking Durin. Seems important.
I thought they were around Vanaheim? Adding to the question, or can you point me to where he says where they are?
Besides, did we get an answer to how long it takes Valinor to shuttle back and forth?
Yeah we're doing well so far. I want to keep it that way. I worry a direct confrontation is going to be more costly than necessary.
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Doomed Wombat
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Yeah...
Sure
The reserves are being kept near Mar Sara, just in case, the reasoning being that we can't keep the whole lot supplied and ya know, they may need reinforcements.
Another reason why we're on our own is well this.
Their standard boy is likely weaker than our standard civilian.
Eh fair enough.
Personally I'm just picking the current plan cause it seems like a decent balance between too much and too little.
Also
@Durin
Sorry, but I need to point this out, you forgot to remove a grand crusier from the abominations totals, as they lost one when they rolled that nat 1, but they still have 38 in the final tally.
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- Location
- The Bayou, Everglades
We rely on orbital and ground support to get such great exchanges. The enemy will simply retreat from a battle that goes that badly for them.
Vicinity could mean a lot of things. Keeping the question.
And the part about Valinor's back-and-forth time is really quite important. I'm sure someone asked that already. Will keep looking.
Doomed Wombat
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Not in terms of subsectors mate.
Subsector Gehenna is 60 light years away from the trust and 30 away from Cobalt, they can't not be in the subsector and still remain strategic reserves, if they needed to be called in and they were in Vanaheim say its very likely the Waaargh would have won and would have left by the time they arrived.
I know it is that's why I asked it
Haven't gotten an answer yet.
And then what, retreat in disgrace?
They're on a clock, they have to finish Lin off before the Trust finishes the waargh and gets over here and the longer they spend unable to land troops the closer that gets.
They can't stay in system we've already proven we can probably kill em by death of 1000 cuts, they could try to draw us out by going to another system, but that's likely to have plenty of defences of its own and again, its not doing the main thing killing Lin, which given what we know of the personality of the general is something he'll focus on damn the casualties.
He could try to land somewhere outside of our zone of orbital defences, but given we're likely to be keeping Lin in Dis or the Azyr isles he'd have to fight all the way through Duat, Eleysium or the Everglades to reach them.
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- Location
- The Bayou, Everglades
Oh, look what I found:
Arrogant, not stupid.
I remembered that as for battle in the void. I really don't think wrecking the abomination fleet here and now is worth it.
But they still have to cover other worlds, at least those around Mar Sara. A week or two less could make a difference, depending on Valinor's shuttle time.
Well, then I'm adding it. Durin can chew me out if he ignored that question for reasons.
Rely on their ground forces to kill Lin. Not like they were going to bombard Dis into submission, at least not without taking terribly damage, and Lin could just take the train to the next Hive, against whose guns a much reduced Crusade fleet simply wouldn't have a chance of winning.
Arrogant, not stupid.
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Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
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- Dancing on wires!
Mate you just said they'd retreat if they had an unfavourable exchange and I assumed you meant before they got their boots on the ground.
Even if we assume its after they land their people that's still terrible for them if they can't retake the orbitals then they can't reinforce those troops and they're screwed.
Between Avernus and our cities we'd grind them down to nothing.
Looks at Waters...yeah I'd say arrogance can lead to debuffs.
So while he isn't strictly idiotic, I'm hardily going to call him a bastion of martial excellence, especially if he's using Imperial tactics.
BTW I just wanna say I want to commemorate the brave sacrifices of the soldier destroyers who have bravely given their lives for the Trust.
- Location
- The Bayou, Everglades
Do they have to destroy all the orbitals to land troops?
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
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- Dancing on wires!
I'd imagine they'd loose an awful lot to the stations if even one was still standing, but its the cities I'd think they'd be more worried about.