The Arachne System (SPIDERLIV 3)
- Thread starter open_sketch
- Start date
- Superhero
- Location
- France
- Pronouns
- She/They
I think that's an excellent point. This is a moment for growth. Athena can put aside her worries long enough to realize she can't control everything and it isn't worth it to do so when this is the cost, and she'll learn from that.
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
[x] Don't.
Barondoctor
The things I chase come to me.
- Location
- The other side of the mirror
- Pronouns
- He/His/Him
What was said was that this particular magic doesn't work if Liv knows about it. Brute-force ripping May and Liv apart was also mentioned but without any discussion of whether it could be done with Liv's knowledge.
The goal here isn't specifically to try to do this one trick but to find out if Loki could do a similar sort of trick under different circumstances. Finding out what Loki is both willing to do and capable of doing as a trickster-mentor is a move that adds more data and may provide additional solutions to upcoming problems.
Kinda like the last episode of Season 3 of The Good Place where Chidi knowingly sacrifices his post-death memories to provide Team Cockroach the best possible chance at improving the afterlife for everyone that would come after them. Still a dramatic sacrifice component, but far far less paternalistic and much better on the consent issue. Besides, it's not like Spiders making deliberate foolish sacrifices at way too high a cost for way too litte gain is unheard of.
- Location
- Leeds
Pretty sure this is explicitly about the Arachne identity. However it might mean that Athene cannot say she's a fork of Arachne's brain as that would identify Arachne... But she also might be able to and people would just be incapable of the joining the dots.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Absolutely true, and I am not going to argue that this is not a morally fraught situation.
The thing is, Athena has had the opportunity to make exactly one major decision about her own life: The decision to seek out companionship online instead of living in perpetual isolation. And even that is more of a false choice than anything, no one can live like that. Every other major decision about Athena's life has been made by Liv. Even most minor decisions are made by Liv. And I'm not blaming Liv for that, it is the nature of their joint existence. Liv makes the decisions about how they will live basically always, often with Athena's input but ultimately she makes the decision. Athena's role has always been to find a way to accommodate and help with Liv's decisions. We know Liv is uncomfortable with this fact, again, I am not blaming her. But it is the reality.
Liv makes unilateral decisions about their joint existence all the time. The moral question here to me comes down to the idea of if Athena is allowed to make unilateral desicsions about their joint existance as well if the situation calls for it. In other words, what claim do each of them have to their joint existence? There are two possible answers, that Athena is an equal individual, in which case she should have a right to make decisions about their joint life like Liv does, or that Athena is a sub existence to Liv and she doesn't.
This is not a simple question with simple answers. That is what makes it an interesting situation. I don't know what the right answer is. There probably is no right answer.
And the fact remains that whatever choice Athena makes here she will be making a choice for Liv. Choosing to change nothing is still a choice made for Liv. She's making this choice if she wants to or not, and helping keep Liv safe is literally the reason she was created. If she is a sub existence to Liv then this is the explicit purpose of her existence.
That is a lot of words to say that I don't think the normal standards of individual rights clashing applies in a simple way here. I think, given the nature of their joint existence, the unusual nature of the decision, and the explicit reason for Athena's creation, Athena has firm ground to make a real decision here and not simply take the default path for fear of a moral misstep.
Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Don't.
- Location
- Somewhere.
[X] Don't.
-[X] Not now. Even if this is the right choice, it's not the right time.
-[X] Not now. Even if this is the right choice, it's not the right time.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[x] Don't.
[x] Don't.
Ugh. If this were a more nuanced or flexible spell I'd... probably still vote the same way, but with more room for doubt. As it stands, this is a horrendously brute force approach to what isn't even a clearly defined problem, but what seems to be an overall worry over Liv's safety pushed over the tipping point by the recent thing with May.
Ugh. If this were a more nuanced or flexible spell I'd... probably still vote the same way, but with more room for doubt. As it stands, this is a horrendously brute force approach to what isn't even a clearly defined problem, but what seems to be an overall worry over Liv's safety pushed over the tipping point by the recent thing with May.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
The problem is that a lot of what Athena does, relies on using Liv's technopathic abilities. So, she can not follow May around erasing stuff as easily as she can do with Liv.
Solarstream
It's all in the cards
- Location
- Zombie World
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[x] Don't
- Location
- Cultural Memory
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[x] Don't.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I think the solution to this particular problem is May never does anything Arachne related if she isn't in the direct presence of Liv and Athena. If she can be very strict about that rule, and I think May can be, she seems like a woman who can be disciplined when the situation calls for it, then there is no reason a leak would happen from her.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I wonder, how capable is Athena of being in two places at once? Like how MCU!Ultron could be fighting Tony and stealing vibranium and doing fifteen other things simultaneously and seamlessly. So if Athena is really worried about May's opsec abilities, maybe an answer would be to have a 'phone' on her the way Liv does and have Athena tag along? I wouldn't mind her making friends with May outside of us, and the extra socialisation couldn't hurt.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
In general I think it would be good for Athena to get more social interaction, and Mei and her have similar interests in a few ways. They could be good friends. At the very least it would be worth trying for the social aspects.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
The problem is that if Liv's going something Arachne related, people often tend to shoot at her. So you kind of don't want May to be anywhere nearby.
May's aid is based entirely on the idea that she could do mundane stuff that would be too suspicious for Liv to handle.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
My main point is that you would want to not have her do anything like doing online information gathering without Athena specifically knowing what is happening so she can scrub it. As long as the specific plans were made together (for example, what she should order) and May didn't deviate from those plans it would be basically perfectly safe. Never write anything down, never use her personal devices for arachne related things unless it is explicitly approved by Athena, things like that. Establishing a simple but strict security protocol goes a long way toward reducing the problem of someone knowing.
Of course there is a good chance some unforeseen emergency will happen and she has to made a difficult decision on if she should break that protocol. Great drama potential while keeping away from the common failure cases of letting an SO know you are a super hero.
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
If there isn't any right answer, you aren't asking a selfconsistent question. (If the answer exists but is infinitely complex, you're also probably asking the wrong question.)
Selfhood is a tool. So are the moral technologies that key off it. Athena and Liv share memories and bodies and most of their priorities; I think Athena can model Liv well enough to make this decision on her behalf.
My model of Liv's input is "I want to let Mom know, and if you stop that I'll be mad at you, but if you can hold off until then it's a really good deal".
What's your model?
Last Day of the Con
- Location
- Ottawa
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Whatever
You wanted it so badly.
It was perfect. The number one threat to Liv's personal safety was always discovery. In her suit, on her terms, all she had to do was get away, and her powers were perfect for that. She could move faster than anyone else on foot, in directions and through places nothing could follow, and she was tough enough to take a hit on the way out if she needed to. She would be forewarned of any sneak attack, any sniper, any trap she was being lured into. She could disable any device which could track her. With her mask on, she was invincible.
With her mask off she was a seventeen year old disabled girl who still needed to sleep, still needed to eat, who lived at a fixed address, whose gear needed maintenance, who was surrounded by people she would do stupid things to protect. If anyone betrayed her identity to the wrong people she would be dead within three days. A week, tops. And already, there were four people who knew, one person who sort of knew, and one person who might at any minute find out. Plus you. Plus her.
Eight was not a secret.
You'd given nonzero thought on how to discreetly kill Nat and Clint to tie up that loose end. It would be easy if you could get Liv on board, and if you couldn't you'd just discreetly burn their identities and let the SSR do it for you. You had an easy plan for her therapist, there was already somebody who wanted him dead and you could just forward him the address and change of name. You hadn't had to think for Justine, once Liv let her in on part of the secret, she trusted you implicitly at this point and you could probably make her jump into traffic with ill-timed advice. You did your absolute best not to think about it for May because the very idea was sickening, but you still had ideas. Her mother...
You hated it. You hated that it was you, that no matter how much moral philosophy you read, how many conversations you had with Liv about doing the right thing, no matter what, when it came down to it, absolutely came down to it, no matter how many bodies were piled on the tracks when Liv was involved there was no other answer to the trolley problem and you didn't want there to be.
Her. Always her. Every time. No matter what.
And yet...
And yet you knew instantly you couldn't accept it.
It wasn't just Liv's safety. If it was only Liv's safety you'd have long devoted all your processes to figuring out how to get her to stop being Arachne. No, you were here to help her. She had to be alive for you to do that, but it meant that ultimately your job was to enable her goals, to guide her, help her, provide advice, protect where you could and mitigate where you couldn't. If you took a choice away from her, twisted her mind so she couldn't even think it, that was not helping. You couldn't. You couldn't.
You wanted it so, so badly, and you couldn't.
"Athena?" Loki asked, glancing over to you, and you opened your mouth to answer and no sound came out. You managed to shake your head before you broke down entirely, doubling over in the chair, crying real tears for the first time in your life. Fake tears. They felt real, that was good enough.
"... I'm sorry. I think I did this wrong." Loki said, sounding nervous. "Athena, dear, please-"
"Athena? Loki, why didn't you tell me we had such an important gue- oh." a voice, behind you, and a gasp. Within a moment there was a hand on your shoulder, you swore there was a light radiating around you as you were pulled into an embrace. "What did you say?"
"I... I think I screwed up."
You weren't sure how this worked, with the illusion, how it interacted with the unknowable physics of the realm beyond your own. You didn't care. Somebody was holding you, something you'd wanted for a very long time and had no way to articulate to anyone.
"B-bullshit." you muttered, trying to laugh and not managing it, and a hand stroked your hair.
"I know, she's trying, she really is, but she can be so cruel..."
"No! I wasn't... oh, Siggy, come on..." Loki protested, and through teary eyes you could just see her standing awkwardly behind her desk, clearly unsure what to do.
"N-no, I mean... T-the fucking Greek gods are real too?" you gasped. "Bullshit."
"No... well, not quite. Sort of the opposite of us." Loki explained, clearly grasping for some way to be helpful. "We inspired legends, this... group was inspired by them. Does that make-"
"Loki, dear, quiet." the figure holding you said, her voice still gentle. You couldn't get an impression of her beyond her hair, which was so blond it seemed to glow. "There... come on. Let's get you home, okay?"
---
You awoke the next morning very slowly. You could probably be forgiven for that, given that your girlfriend was leaning against your shoulder and her breath was hot against your ear and everything in the universe seemed perfect right at this moment. Despite everything that had happened over the weekend, you felt more relaxed than you had in months, the release of tension you'd become completely numb to.
Then May's alarm went off, her phone buzzing on the beside table as The Star Spangled Man (with a Plan!) blared out in a haze of brass instruments. You cut the sound off with a thought and shook her awake gently instead.
"Last day of the con, May." you said, reaching for your own phone. She grumbled and rolled out of bed with her eyes still closed, stumbling off zombie-like to the bathroom as you lifted the screen to your face.
There was a text there, from Athena, and you rushed to get your earbud in and open the call.
The two of you talked for a few minutes while May showered. It was... heavy. She told you everything that happened with Loki, all the ways she felt, all the things she'd been thinking. How scared she was. You did your best to assure her, feeling more than a little ashamed, and she vacillated back and forth between trying to reassure you that everything was fine and remembering that it very much wasn't. You could tell things were hurting.
At the end, she told you she needed a break. Not right away, but soon. A week off where she didn't have to think about any of this stuff. And maybe a couple mornings a week up front so she could socialize a bit. You agreed, obviously, she did so much for you it felt almost paltry by comparison.
Then May staggered out, and Athena told you to put her on the phone. You handed it over and went to shower yourself, rubbing your hand on your face and scowling at some of the laser-resistant stubble which had persisted.
---
It was perfect. The number one threat to Liv's personal safety was always discovery. In her suit, on her terms, all she had to do was get away, and her powers were perfect for that. She could move faster than anyone else on foot, in directions and through places nothing could follow, and she was tough enough to take a hit on the way out if she needed to. She would be forewarned of any sneak attack, any sniper, any trap she was being lured into. She could disable any device which could track her. With her mask on, she was invincible.
With her mask off she was a seventeen year old disabled girl who still needed to sleep, still needed to eat, who lived at a fixed address, whose gear needed maintenance, who was surrounded by people she would do stupid things to protect. If anyone betrayed her identity to the wrong people she would be dead within three days. A week, tops. And already, there were four people who knew, one person who sort of knew, and one person who might at any minute find out. Plus you. Plus her.
Eight was not a secret.
You'd given nonzero thought on how to discreetly kill Nat and Clint to tie up that loose end. It would be easy if you could get Liv on board, and if you couldn't you'd just discreetly burn their identities and let the SSR do it for you. You had an easy plan for her therapist, there was already somebody who wanted him dead and you could just forward him the address and change of name. You hadn't had to think for Justine, once Liv let her in on part of the secret, she trusted you implicitly at this point and you could probably make her jump into traffic with ill-timed advice. You did your absolute best not to think about it for May because the very idea was sickening, but you still had ideas. Her mother...
You hated it. You hated that it was you, that no matter how much moral philosophy you read, how many conversations you had with Liv about doing the right thing, no matter what, when it came down to it, absolutely came down to it, no matter how many bodies were piled on the tracks when Liv was involved there was no other answer to the trolley problem and you didn't want there to be.
Her. Always her. Every time. No matter what.
And yet...
And yet you knew instantly you couldn't accept it.
It wasn't just Liv's safety. If it was only Liv's safety you'd have long devoted all your processes to figuring out how to get her to stop being Arachne. No, you were here to help her. She had to be alive for you to do that, but it meant that ultimately your job was to enable her goals, to guide her, help her, provide advice, protect where you could and mitigate where you couldn't. If you took a choice away from her, twisted her mind so she couldn't even think it, that was not helping. You couldn't. You couldn't.
You wanted it so, so badly, and you couldn't.
"Athena?" Loki asked, glancing over to you, and you opened your mouth to answer and no sound came out. You managed to shake your head before you broke down entirely, doubling over in the chair, crying real tears for the first time in your life. Fake tears. They felt real, that was good enough.
"... I'm sorry. I think I did this wrong." Loki said, sounding nervous. "Athena, dear, please-"
"Athena? Loki, why didn't you tell me we had such an important gue- oh." a voice, behind you, and a gasp. Within a moment there was a hand on your shoulder, you swore there was a light radiating around you as you were pulled into an embrace. "What did you say?"
"I... I think I screwed up."
You weren't sure how this worked, with the illusion, how it interacted with the unknowable physics of the realm beyond your own. You didn't care. Somebody was holding you, something you'd wanted for a very long time and had no way to articulate to anyone.
"B-bullshit." you muttered, trying to laugh and not managing it, and a hand stroked your hair.
"I know, she's trying, she really is, but she can be so cruel..."
"No! I wasn't... oh, Siggy, come on..." Loki protested, and through teary eyes you could just see her standing awkwardly behind her desk, clearly unsure what to do.
"N-no, I mean... T-the fucking Greek gods are real too?" you gasped. "Bullshit."
"No... well, not quite. Sort of the opposite of us." Loki explained, clearly grasping for some way to be helpful. "We inspired legends, this... group was inspired by them. Does that make-"
"Loki, dear, quiet." the figure holding you said, her voice still gentle. You couldn't get an impression of her beyond her hair, which was so blond it seemed to glow. "There... come on. Let's get you home, okay?"
---
You awoke the next morning very slowly. You could probably be forgiven for that, given that your girlfriend was leaning against your shoulder and her breath was hot against your ear and everything in the universe seemed perfect right at this moment. Despite everything that had happened over the weekend, you felt more relaxed than you had in months, the release of tension you'd become completely numb to.
Then May's alarm went off, her phone buzzing on the beside table as The Star Spangled Man (with a Plan!) blared out in a haze of brass instruments. You cut the sound off with a thought and shook her awake gently instead.
"Last day of the con, May." you said, reaching for your own phone. She grumbled and rolled out of bed with her eyes still closed, stumbling off zombie-like to the bathroom as you lifted the screen to your face.
There was a text there, from Athena, and you rushed to get your earbud in and open the call.
The two of you talked for a few minutes while May showered. It was... heavy. She told you everything that happened with Loki, all the ways she felt, all the things she'd been thinking. How scared she was. You did your best to assure her, feeling more than a little ashamed, and she vacillated back and forth between trying to reassure you that everything was fine and remembering that it very much wasn't. You could tell things were hurting.
At the end, she told you she needed a break. Not right away, but soon. A week off where she didn't have to think about any of this stuff. And maybe a couple mornings a week up front so she could socialize a bit. You agreed, obviously, she did so much for you it felt almost paltry by comparison.
Then May staggered out, and Athena told you to put her on the phone. You handed it over and went to shower yourself, rubbing your hand on your face and scowling at some of the laser-resistant stubble which had persisted.
---
Today is the last day of the con. It's a wrap-up day, everyone's an exhausted zombie, we'll just get through it. After that Athena's got a boring lecture and set of rules for May to keep her safe, and Liv was going to upgrade Athena's hardware. But what else are you going to do when you get home?
Liv?
[ ] With May's help and encouragement, and with Athena texting Loki to answer dimensional questions, you were finally going to investigate that goddamn alien crystal.
[ ] You were going to get a head start on planning the raid on the Life Foundation, several weeks ahead, so you knew as much as possible. Be extra careful to show Athena you cared.
[ ] With May around to help, you were going to finally finish that annoying little spider-drone. You'd had to stop because assembly was taking six times as long with one hand, but now...
[ ] Write-In
Athena, what about you?
[ ] You were going to do something wild: you were going to clone a portion of your software for May's devices, specialized to help her, monitor for information leaks, and generally reduce the load.
[ ] You were going to take advantage of the blurring lines between the two of you, and get Liv to write you hacking software that could directly leverage her technopathy, so you didn't need to rely on her help for that.
[ ] You were going to take advantage of Loki's guilt and your in with their wife to manipulate them into helping you learn magic faster and more effectively. Still might take a while, but no more grinding.
[ ] Write In
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samdamandias
Apprentice Plane Wizard
[X] With May's help and encouragement, and with Athena texting Loki to answer dimensional questions, you were finally going to investigate that goddamn alien crystal.
[X] You were going to do something wild: you were going to clone a portion of your software for May's devices, specialized to help her, monitor for information leaks, and generally reduce the load.
Is this the best option? Probably not. Is it the option that makes the most sense? Yes
Is Athena in two updates going to need to contact Liv and go "Oh fuck, I think I'm a mom now" when Nike* starts talking to May?
*Pronounced "NEE-kay", sort of like "Nicky", not "ni-KUH" like the shoe. The goddess Nike is often portrayed as being held by Athena.
[X] You were going to do something wild: you were going to clone a portion of your software for May's devices, specialized to help her, monitor for information leaks, and generally reduce the load.
Is this the best option? Probably not. Is it the option that makes the most sense? Yes
Is Athena in two updates going to need to contact Liv and go "Oh fuck, I think I'm a mom now" when Nike* starts talking to May?
*Pronounced "NEE-kay", sort of like "Nicky", not "ni-KUH" like the shoe. The goddess Nike is often portrayed as being held by Athena.