- Location
- Singapore
Oh wow. The edge.
Well, your misanthropy aside, I like stories where people refuse to give up. I mean, you might as well bitch at 40k galaxy for existing.
Sympathy for the heretic
- Thread starter BiopunkOtrera
- Start date
- Essay
Well, your misanthropy aside, I like stories where people refuse to give up. I mean, you might as well bitch at 40k galaxy for existing.
Tithed_Verse
Vainglorious
- Location
- Iowa
- Pronouns
- They/Them
You can tell stories where people refuse to give up without the backdrop of a fucking evil empire waiting in the wings to fuck up everything that the heroes sacrificed to save!
The stories would, even, be better! A dis-unified humanity trying to fight off the green tide! The angst! The struggle! The hope! The failure! it's enough to fill a man's heart.
@Accelerator: Frankly, you're the edgy one Mr "Everything's better with a fascist evil empire tearing down the hero's successes after the hero fights and dies for them"
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- Estonia
To be fair, a lot (if not most) of humanity had also fallen into barbarity even more primitive than the Imperium, and were being lucky, if they did so on a world more suitable for human life without the aid of advanced technology. All the while suffering Orks and Dark Eldar.
Oases of advanced civlization like Interex would have probably survived anything but a galaxy-wide Waaagh! or Necron grand awakening, but the human cost of not trying to unite/uplift humanity would also have been astronomical.
That still doesn't mean the Imperium was the best idea Big E had ever had. In retrospective, it was probably one of the worst. He should have taken the slower path of uplifting Sol into something capable of uplifting most of the rest of human galaxy.
In fact, why such Sol-centrism? Why not find the most advanced and promising human polity (without the issues of Mechanicus) and guide it from the shadows to take on the giant humanitarian mission of reuplifting humanity, instead of Mad Max Earth and Mars?
The charitable interpretation of Big E is, that he got impatient in the face of all the human suffering going around, so that he abandoned the slow path he was experienced with and rushed into mistakes like the Imperium.
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- Location
- Singapore
Perhaps as a symbol?
I mean, think about it. Which is more inspiring? Claiming a random world, from amongst millions, and use it as a new capital?
Or use the old homeworld, and use that as a rallying cry, telling the people how their old home, their old birthplace, the center of their power, has come back and is now the capital world of this new polity.
- Location
- Singapore
What makes you think they'll tear down the hero's successes?
In a way thematically appropriate to this thread, I have fought continuously against the temptation to post in this thread, and eventually given in to the seeping corruption. 
Anything Warhammer Fantasy is always bae in my book.
To be honest this is very similar the approach that the Eisenhorn novels seem to take, and frankly I think they're probably the best detailed sketch we have of what "corruption" actually means in practice, on a human level. You can reach to the Warp for power, to overcome a monstrous foe too terrible to defeat otherwise, and do so with the best of intentions. You can know the risks, and thus be able to guard against them. It won't immediately make you into a cackling lunatic who boils babies for their marrow fat. It's just that, years later, or decades later, you may start to look at some of your choices, things which seemed perfectly reasonable in context at the time, and wonder why you made them. Eventually you will begin to need to reach to that power more often, to solve other problems caused by it, or by the consequences of choices you've made. That's how it starts.
Anything Warhammer Fantasy is always bae in my book.
To be honest this is very similar the approach that the Eisenhorn novels seem to take, and frankly I think they're probably the best detailed sketch we have of what "corruption" actually means in practice, on a human level. You can reach to the Warp for power, to overcome a monstrous foe too terrible to defeat otherwise, and do so with the best of intentions. You can know the risks, and thus be able to guard against them. It won't immediately make you into a cackling lunatic who boils babies for their marrow fat. It's just that, years later, or decades later, you may start to look at some of your choices, things which seemed perfectly reasonable in context at the time, and wonder why you made them. Eventually you will begin to need to reach to that power more often, to solve other problems caused by it, or by the consequences of choices you've made. That's how it starts.
- Location
- Estonia
That's probably it. And the bias of having being born on Earth and having spent most of his life on it, to make him overestimate the symbolic value.
Because honestly, I think it was a mistake (which is fine, I like Big E being fallible). Compared to the sheer utility of guiding, lets say, the Interex, from the shadows to take over galaxy, it would be far easier to just manufacture another symbol.
An "Interex Imperium" timeline is actually starting to sound very interesting to me. Instead of the idea of human unity, it would have been built on the "let all civilized beings work together, fuck hostile guys you can't negotiate with". Its territory would have holes, being less willing to just outright conquer those not willing to join. Maybe it would be in cold war with Mars and Mechanicus, especially over Terra. Maybe it has assimilated some other canon aliens, like the Tau.
The Big E would also still be around and him and his agents would be busy fighting a shadow war with the Chaos wanting to corrupt the Interex Imperium and generally helping to keep the more decentralized, slower FTL using polity together.
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Tithed_Verse
Vainglorious
- Location
- Iowa
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Myself, I'm pondering a big E less setting: The technology would all be more shit, (Lazguns would be the 'super advanced weapons' and noone has bolters) and humans would constantly be at war with other humans, but Chaos' weapons would also be shit, the 'nids would be unheard of, and the major threats to humanity would be the Orks, the Eldar and the Tau. Chaos would be something that lurks in the dark and occasionally ganks a ship, or raids a planet, but doesn't have any strong unified force. Occasionally a government will be taken over by chaos, try to unify the region, and get beaten back and burned to the ground.
The dark eldar would try to enslave humans, the Exodites would get into territorial wars, and the Crafthalls would ignore humans as inconsequential.
humanity is slowly dying. Every year a new planet goes dark. But they're striving, struggling, and holding on by the skin of their teeth.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I mean.
I'm actually not sure the Emperor was wrong to want to try uniting humanity. He had some long term ambitions for the fate of the galaxy that simply could not be achieved by a decentralized humanity. Like rebuilding lost technology. Like creating a Human Webway to give humanity safe transportation through the galaxy that wasn't so susceptible to warp storms and Chaos. Like bringing civilization to planets that had fallen to barbarism, including Earth, and there were many such planets. These were not unreasonably goals as such.
Given how effectively the Chaos Gods proved able to exploit his weaknesses and bring all his plans down in ruins, the outcome might have been better if he hadn't tried... But it would very possibly have been better still if he'd just done it correctly. At least for humans, though I very much grant not for anyone else.
I'm actually not sure the Emperor was wrong to want to try uniting humanity. He had some long term ambitions for the fate of the galaxy that simply could not be achieved by a decentralized humanity. Like rebuilding lost technology. Like creating a Human Webway to give humanity safe transportation through the galaxy that wasn't so susceptible to warp storms and Chaos. Like bringing civilization to planets that had fallen to barbarism, including Earth, and there were many such planets. These were not unreasonably goals as such.
Given how effectively the Chaos Gods proved able to exploit his weaknesses and bring all his plans down in ruins, the outcome might have been better if he hadn't tried... But it would very possibly have been better still if he'd just done it correctly. At least for humans, though I very much grant not for anyone else.
the atom
Anarcho-Kemalist Thought Leader
- Location
- Comfortably numb
My rough take on moving the lore forward without retconning everything would be to sort of reset everything back to 3rd edition/Rogue Trader era. The Imperium launches a new crusade to restore order to the galaxy but it goes pretty awry. First Guilliman and his reformers are killed in a coup by the Inquisition, who launch a massive campaign of radicalization throughout. The Imperium, in its renewed zeal, goes from The Lesser (But Totally not Really) Evil to just straight up evil.
Gathering the greatest mass of fanatics and dark age super weapons the galaxy has ever seen, the enemies of the Imperium are thrown back in a way they haven't been since the Great Crusade itself. The gathering Ork hordes are shattered, the Tyranids blunted, Chaos reversed but at great cost. In contrast to the Great Crusade's methodicalism and quality, this new Great Crusade is a wall of screaming flesh, with all the costs it entails. The momentum is a mirage and the adrenaline begins to wear off. The machinery that made the Imperium trundle along for millennia is broken, smashed by the Inquisition's efforts to forge the Imperium into a single purpose machine. Millions of rebellions, economic collapses sap the Imperium from within as their legions bleed themselves dry on a hundred million fronts. Gradually, the forces of the Imperium wither and scatter before achieving their final goal.
The galaxy is a changed place. All of the major players lay broken and shattered, all thoughts of eternal war scoured from the minds of the greatest players. The Orks now roam as diminished warbands, the Tyranids likewise shifting towards smaller swarms in the wake of the destruction of their major hive fleets. Chaos, once an all conquering scourge is broken as an organized force. Daemons play out their petty battles with one another across the galaxy as their forelorn cultists are forced to turn to piracy, smuggling and mercenary work alongside outsiders in order to survive.
The Imperium itself is changed place. The Imperial Cult has suffered its greatest setback in history, many priests driven from their worlds. The warp rolls and froths like a sea in a great storm, travel now a fraction of the speed it once was. Lawlessness reigns in an Imperium that is now a playground for mutants, rebels, deviants and xenos.
The fanatical Imperial loyalists, now ruling in fact from a relative handful (though still vast) number of worlds, have learned little from this set back, believing that it was merely insufficient zeal which drove the Imperium to defeat. The core worlds become hellish, hyper authoritarian dystopias that grind their people to dust in the name of their Corpse Emperor who was tragically driven insane by the calamity within the warp.
Now, I realize that this might sound like doubling down on all of 40k's worst aspects for a lot of people, but I think something like this, pulled off well, could please both parties. The older fanbase and those there for the grim darkness get to see a return to form without eliminating any of the lore they've spent years learning about. People who want more variety in their setting and space for different stories now have this great big chaotic blank to draw in. The increasingly rigid faction system the setting has been operating in is totally broken, so now you can go back to the mish mashy whackiness of the early days and have a human/ork sorcerer teaming up with a mixed Tau/Eldar/Human band of rebels to spread Communism. You can have whole worlds and subsectors run by NeoCatholics. The Imperium goes back to being this death metal pastiche that is too over the top to be any kind of advertisement of fascism, but now has a lot of the weird, psychotic charm of the early years.
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- Location
- Singapore
What's the difference between 3rd edition and, say, 4th and 5th?
King Tharassian
Governor-Militant
- Location
- Victory Bay, Kronus
Oh, I never meant that. I admit that this thread is... troubling... to a small, scared spot at the back of my mind that gets changed way too easily, but I was simply trying to add to the debate. I offered my own opinion. I never expected people to unanimously agree with me.
Now once I become dictator of that little banana republic I've got my eye on, however.....
Uh....
I'm sorry, but I can't really agree given what we know of the backstory.
Sure, humanity has been making Chaos worse for the last ten millennia, but that doesn't mean that the Warp was good, either. The Eye of Terror would still have opened, Slaanesh would still be born...
And an ununified humanity, trying to fight off Gorgutz? Gazghkull? The Beast? How would that be better?
I admit, I'm going merely by the premise of "Emps dies in the DAoT" but this premise of "the Emperor is the literal source of all evil in 40k" (exaggeration, I know) is not correct given what we have on that time period. Unless this hypothetical timeline is completely rewritten all the way back to 30k and earlier, in which case you can go carte blanche.
See point: the Beast.
Humans would stand no chance. As loathe as I am to say it, given the response I'll get.... This is worse.
The reason some people (including myself at some times [Go go General Sturnn!]) find the Imperium inspiring is because of the fact that they survive despite all the crap the Imperium comes up with. Yes, it's HFY. Yes, it has those unfortunate overtones. But there is hope, because there's still humanity, and there are still some good people.
The hypothetical scenario you propose would be blacker than black. If you simply remove Emps from the equation at the start of the DAoT (please explain i I misunderstand you), then you have small states fighting each other as much as the invaders. Orks running rampant, Necron tomb worlds awakening unchecked and unstoppably...
The Nids.... Are a mixed bag. I might be wrong, but I recall the Astronomican being only half the reason they're attacking. Isn't it also implied that they're running from something else?
You say that this timeline would result in them holding on by the skin of their teeth....
But frankly, I don't see much difference in the setup. The way you describe it, humanity is still dying, aliens are still the enemy, and Chaos is still hostile. The only difference is that mankind now fights itself even more often, leading to the species dying out even faster.
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And, well, what? What's to stop Orks from going on a roll and start building death stars.... again?
I mean, there's nothing preventing them from doing it. Only constant assasinations by the deathwatch, killing ork leaders before they become too big, or focusing assaults on the Waaaagghhhh before they start avalanching into one that is impossible.
I mean, there's nothing preventing them from doing it. Only constant assasinations by the deathwatch, killing ork leaders before they become too big, or focusing assaults on the Waaaagghhhh before they start avalanching into one that is impossible.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Given that orks tend to get bigger, tougher, and better armed in response to being fought with tougher, stronger enemies, I'm not actually sure whether the massive WAAAGH!s that we've seen devastate many planets and take major Imperial force concentrations to stop would even exist if not for, well, the existence of concentrated Imperial forces for them to fight.
In the counterfactual where every world defends itself, I think WAAAGH forces would be individually smaller, though still pretty likely to overwhelm the first world they hit.
In the counterfactual where every world defends itself, I think WAAAGH forces would be individually smaller, though still pretty likely to overwhelm the first world they hit.
- Location
- Singapore
Problem. Orks fight each other too, defeat each other, and then absorb the remnants. And that's not including in, well.... everything in the 40k verse.
I mean, if you alter the universe that makes it so that each individual planet can defend itself better than an entire federation or imperium, fine. But that makes as much sense as gene-modded supersoldiers. Because contrary to most people, scattered, uncoordinated and separate polities are not stronger than a single polity with all components roughly lined up in the same command.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
See, the thing is, if this process naturally proceeded to completion with giant warbosses rampaging the universe, the orks would already own everything. I suspect that most ork internecine warfare doesn't actually make them stronger on average, what with the likelihood of big warbosses being killed randomly before they get unstoppably big by local standards.
I mean, "orks overrun everyone" is not an unreasonable possibility for the decentralized galaxy, don't get me wrong. It's just not... necessarily quite so simple.
I mean, "orks overrun everyone" is not an unreasonable possibility for the decentralized galaxy, don't get me wrong. It's just not... necessarily quite so simple.
King Tharassian
Governor-Militant
- Location
- Victory Bay, Kronus
That's a fair point. I actually had forgotten that possibility.
Well, either way, I still object to the idea that the universe would be better off had Big E simply never existed. His existence isn't the issue. The problem lies in a series of avoidable decisions and events that cascaded into disaster.
- Location
- Singapore
Issue. internecine warfare means warboss vs warboss.
Sure, the big warbosses are killed.... by a bigger warboss. And now his horde is added to the winner, and things just got worse for everyone. And the win would boost the winning warboss, making him bigger, stronger, and smarter, his orks become bigger, his meks become more maniacal and smarter.
Which is, like, half the reason why I like orks.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Again, if this was unidirectional, orks would just get linearly bigger over time forever.
Sometimes, the big boss loses to a small one who just happens to be kunning enuff to have a holdout weapon in the right place. Sometimes his ship suffers some horrible space mishap. Sometimes, his ammo dump blows up in an accident and spatters him all over the landscape, and the next thing you know you're back to feral orks again.
- Location
- Singapore
Huh. True. Forgot about that.
Still, though, the Beast happened, in-story. And there is, like, no primarch to lead them. And take the fight to them. Which means that the appearance of, say, an adult Ork would be able to force everyone to work together again, or just kill them all.
Tithed_Verse
Vainglorious
- Location
- Iowa
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Except chaos makes lining up all the components in the same command worse than separating them because any group of humans is only as strong as the one of them who's most likely to succumb to chaos. Once the weakest succumbs to chaos, he always takes the entire chain of command with him.
The solution is a number of small, dis-unified chains of command (yes, that occasionally fight each other), so that chaos can't gain the upper hand by taking the king. Though, frankly, this is mostly defense against Nurgle and Tzentch, not so effective against Korn and Slanesh. Still, it's not like the current imperium isn't a massive machine that feeds Korn, and it's not like Slanesh doesn't punch far, far, far out of it's league thanks to owning all the eldar forever.
Also, what everyone else said about stronger fights making orks worse.
His existance and choices lead directly to the empire that is, absolutely, a major source of the problems, and which does, in fact, make things worse. One of the ways it makes things worse is it makes it far easier for chaos to spread.
I mean, the problems existed... and then he made them far, far, far, far, immeasurably worse.
I mean, humanity fights each other in freedom instead of oppression, so you know, that's better for one.
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- Singapore
And what makes you think that?
Tithed_Verse
Vainglorious
- Location
- Iowa
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Canon. Seriously.
Horus Heresy
They took out the whole chain of command by exploiting the one with weakest will, and corrupted about half of it just by exploiting the one player who happened to have the weakest will. That's how it works in canon.
WH40k is a universe that's actively hostile to attempts to unify. It's better to not try.
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- Location
- Singapore
Any reason why they simply won't, like, corrupt them all at once? I mean, nothing says they can't corrupt one at a time. They're split up? Ok then, do simultaneous corrupting campaigns.
Tithed_Verse
Vainglorious
- Location
- Iowa
- Pronouns
- They/Them
A bunch of polities will fall. Those that survive will have higher chaos-detection, and removal abilities. Some of them will be harder to corrupt than the empire was, remember, half of the damn empire basically turned to chaos in an extremely short period of time. Some will be easier. Eventually the fittest polities will survive. I doubt that the success rate of chaos will be 'half of all human holdings in just a few decades' like it was during the Horus heresy. In fact, chaos tends to gain power the faster and more extreme it's actions, so shattering an empire made it far stronger than breaking a dozen small polities.
Didn't Horus' act create, like, another rift in the warp for chaos? Without that, chaos would be weaker as well.
I mean, E stands for evil, so it's no surprise that the Big E is the biggest evil.... And frankly, from a christian perspective, which is ironic because I'm not christian, the anti-Christ/satanistic imagery around the Big E is kinda unmistakable.
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