Emperor of Mankind: "I am not a god."

Also the Emperor of Mankind: Wears all gold, talks to people via telepathy, is literally a glowing pillar of light, has the entire Word Bearers kneel before him with the Ultramarines as witnesses. "Really why are you worshiping me?"
 
Emperor of Mankind: "I am not a god."

Also the Emperor of Mankind: Wears all gold, talks to people via telepathy, is literally a glowing pillar of light, has the entire Word Bearers kneel before him with the Ultramarines as witnesses. "Really why are you worshiping me?"
And that justifies worshipping him how?
 
Emperor of Mankind: "I am not a god."

Also the Emperor of Mankind: Wears all gold, talks to people via telepathy, is literally a glowing pillar of light, has the entire Word Bearers kneel before him with the Ultramarines as witnesses. "Really why are you worshiping me?"

Quoth Lorgar:
"If a man gathers ten thousand suns in his hands... If a man seeds a hundred thousand worlds with his sons and daughters, granting them custody of the galaxy itself... If a man guides a million vessels between the infinite stars with a mere thought... Then I pray you tell me, if you are able, how such a man is anything less than a god."
 
Also the emperor: "I know! In a universe where the strength of the whole is literally equal to the strength of the weakest because as soon as over falls to chaos, all do, I will unify mankind so that we can all fall to chaos together instead of disunifying them and scattering their people to the wind so that chaos will have a hard time eating them all."
 
Quoth Lorgar:
"If a man gathers ten thousand suns in his hands... If a man seeds a hundred thousand worlds with his sons and daughters, granting them custody of the galaxy itself... If a man guides a million vessels between the infinite stars with a mere thought... Then I pray you tell me, if you are able, how such a man is anything less than a god."
Simple. God is not a matter of capability of power. It is a matter of how much you care and how much you look up to him. If he's powerful and you don't like him? He's the devil. If you like him? Yeah, a god.

Also the emperor: "I know! In a universe where the strength of the whole is literally equal to the strength of the weakest because as soon as over falls to chaos, all do, I will unify mankind so that we can all fall to chaos together instead of disunifying them and scattering their people to the wind so that chaos will have a hard time eating them all."
So.... what happens when this disunity causes the human race to be destroyed piecemeal instead of fighting together?

I mean, by this reasoning, scattered mobs and charges have a greater advantage against coherent formations and tight discipline.
 
And that justifies worshipping him how?
Why do you even give a shit about whether it 'justifies' it?

I mean, this is basically just the Emperor massively fucking up and being profoundly ignorant of human nature.

And my point is Chaos is why its so ineffective because the entire point of the Horus Heresy was to make the Imperium degenerate into a huge buffet of negative emotions for the gods

Granted GEOM underestimated Chaos by thinking it was powered by religion but again the blame is on Logar and Horus
Yeah, but as others are pointing out, for this to even happen, the Emperor had to make numerous 'unforced' mistakes. That is, mistakes where no one was holding a gun to his head.

Like, Lorgar loved his father. A lot. Disturbingly much even. And instead of just conquering planets wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am and going on to the next world like the other primarchs, Lorgar did nation building. His legion stayed around and tried to build up institutions that would be super-loyal to the Emperor and worship him as a god.

And yes, he killed people over this. I'm not endorsing that obviously. Thing is, ALL THE LEGIONS WERE KILLING PEOPLE. That is why the God-Emperor of Man had created Space Marines and called his grand operation the Great Crusade, as opposed to, oh, creating swarms of genetically modified exchange students and calling it The Great Summer Vacation or something.

...

And YES, the Emperor said not to do what Lorgar was doing, but to be fair the guy walks around in golden armor and a radiant aura of halo shining around him all the time looking like a much more swole version of Jesus; it's hard to blame at least one of his sons for thinking of him as a deity of some kind. And the Emperor could have done a lot more to dispel that impression WITHOUT resorting to mass destruction.

But mass destruction is what the Emperor did, laying waste to a huge city that was utterly devoted to him, just as a way of punishing Lorgar and humiliating his legion for loving him too much. Right in front of them.

That shit is fucked up, yo.

...

Moreover, the Emperor did not so much as utter a word of warning suggesting to Lorgar that there might be real evil godlike entities out there who could seduce him to their side and ultimately turn him into a demon or something. That he should refrain from seeking out gods to worship, not because they didn't exist, but because they DID.

Lorgar was completely ignorant of all this. He went out looking for a god who would accept his worship, and it's hard to blame him, and the only reason he knew of not to do that was the word of his father who had just murdered thousands before his eyes and, while forcing him to kneel, told him he was only a man, not a god.

It is not hard to imagine what a roiling sea of anger and emotion and very honestly-come-by daddy issues might have been boiling through Lorgar's head when he got the ball rolling on the Horus Heresy.

"All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth."
-Lorgar

And this doesn't justify Lorgar's actions. But unless the Emperor was a moron, he had to expect a response. Probably a bad one.

...

That's the point is, if you're the all-wise Emperor of Man and you have a legion of superhuman warriors who fight on WITH NO OVERSIGHT, free to roam the galaxy and strike as they will and do as they please for decades at a time... And this legion is commanded by your very, very, excessively loving son... Well, bluntly, you should be smart enough to handle shit like this with more tact and basic competence.

Surely at least ONE of those ancient human shamans who fused to form the Emperor had some goddamn clue as to how to be a good father, or at least a mediocre father? Or at least a father who doesn't commit mass destruction of the homes of people who love and honor him as a way to teach OTHER people who love and honor him AND HAVE SUPERPOWERS and no oversight that they should love and honor him LESS.

:banghead:

...

And that's what we're talking about when we say "the Emperor made many unforced errors." He did thing after thing after thing, and a lot of them were just foreseeably going to go wrong, and he could fairly easily have avoided a lot of his worst problems just by regularly exchanging astropathic messages with his kids.
 
So.... what happens when this disunity causes the human race to be destroyed piecemeal instead of fighting together?
Given WH40k Canon, it would have taken much, much, longer. There were no unified mobs of chaos prior to the horus heresy. The emperor, through his actions, single handedly created the United threat that he feared

A disunied humanity is still a humanity full of heroes, of struggle, of hope death and war. In fact it's a setting with more hope than the grinding death of the empire, one in which a heros actions will not be negated on the global scale by the uncaring gears of a broken system.

Creed and his legions could have served a small kingdom of just a few world, the tanith first and only could be fighting to protect a few random world. They didn't need the massive empire behind them to tell their stories.

And without the backdrop of the unchanging empire, they can actually creates reform and cause good.

Without the black fleets, psychers will fear less and will likely police each other... To a certain extent, for example

If the first thing the emperor had done upon realizing his own power was kill himself, then humanity would be in a better position at the time of canon than if he had not.

If he had taken Mars with him, it would be even more beneficial
 
Last edited:
Lorgar is not a child.
He should simply have executed that man child and his entire legion.

Pick one.

I never said that Lorgar was a child. That was a metaphor, a rhetorical device consisting of an improvised piece of fiction with applicability to a point that was being made. Maybe you've heard of the concept?

My point, which you completely missed, was that Lorgar was hardly beyond fixing. He literally worshiped the Emperor, who could have noticed this and taken some time bring Lorgar around to his way of thinking. Lorgar would almost certainly have listened, it's his god telling him what to do on their first face-to-face meeting. Instead, he grabbed him, handed him a legion, and had the temerity to be surprised, surprised, that Lorgar was applying what he had lived his whole life doing to what he figure he viewed as a god wanted him to do.

But hey, he would eventually fall to Chaos through no direct fault of his own, merely the actions of those around him either forcing him away or manipulating him closer, so he's subhuman scum who deserves to die.
I agree with you that what emps did was wrong, though. He shouldn't have taught Lorgar a lesson. He should simply have executed that man child and his entire legion.
 
Not really.

The world was LARPING fist of the North star before he came about
Earth (and Mars) were larping fist of the North Star. The rest of the universe, not so much.

So, at best, the emperor doomed the rest of the universe to selfishly safe Earth. Good job emperor asshole!

Many of the planets that the imperium discovered and conquered were not in quite as bad places.

Besides, do any of the stories set in wh40k sound better with the hilariously evil empire waiting in the background to undo any progress that the heros made?
 
Last edited:
ick one.

I never said that Lorgar was a child. That was a metaphor, a rhetorical device consisting of an improvised piece of fiction with applicability to a point that was being made. Maybe you've heard of the concept?

My point, which you completely missed, was that Lorgar was hardly beyond fixing. He literally worshiped the Emperor, who could have noticed this and taken some time bring Lorgar around to his way of thinking. Lorgar would almost certainly have listened, it's his god telling him what to do on their first face-to-face meeting. Instead, he grabbed him, handed him a legion, and had the temerity to be surprised, surprised, that Lorgar was applying what he had lived his whole life doing to what he figure he viewed as a god wanted him to do.

But hey, he would eventually fall to Chaos through no direct fault of his own, merely the actions of those around him either forcing him away or manipulating him closer, so he's subhuman scum who deserves to die.
Yes lets make apologies for the guy who cracked the Galaxy in two with war because his daddy issues

Like I said the Emperor was a guy whos lived way too long he was hideously out of touch this is noted in books. He chose to Listen to Erabus and Kor. He chose to go to the eye of terror he admitted he wanted to know bro
 
Yes lets make apologies for the guy who cracked the Galaxy in two with war because his daddy issues

Like I said the Emperor was a guy whos lived way too long he was hideously out of touch this is noted in books. He chose to Listen to Erabus and Kor. He chose to go to the eye of terror he admitted he wanted to know bro
Also, communication? In the galaxy? Really, really sucks.

It sucks. A lot. If it didn't suck so much, the Imperium would be a lot more coordinated, cause, ya know, actual better ftl communication.

It is literally quite possible that he didn't notice that Lorgar was actually doing that shit, until he investigated. Then the hammer came down.
 
Also, communication? In the galaxy? Really, really sucks.
All the more reason to decentralize? I mean, it's actually a classic economics example: Centralization only makes sense with secure lines of rapid communication. Otherwise it's better to let the people at the destination judge things.

Seriously. This line "Communication really sucks" is exactly why humanity would have survived better as a decentralized horde that, yes, fights itself as much as it fights outsiders in not-really-civil-wars because humanity has no one single unified polity, just a large number of governments that each control a small part of everything.

And yes, humanity will fight itself, that's what humanity does. When's the list time you lived on a planet without war?
 
Last edited:
All the more reason to decentralize? I mean, it's actually a classic economics example: Centralization only makes sense with secure lines of rapid communication. Otherwise it's better to let the people at the destination judge things.
Yeah. That's why planets and systems get to decide their own thing, and only give out tithes and follow a few imperial laws.
 
Honestly, a divided galaxy would probably just get destroyed by Orks. They don't need the guidance and with nothing to stop their progress they'll spread like a forest fire.
 
Yes lets make apologies for the guy who cracked the Galaxy in two with war because his daddy issues

As opposed to the guy who set off two galactic wars, caused half of his military to revolt through mismanagement, and gave his greatest enemy their most effective weapons since ever because of his sheer stunning incompetence.
 
Honestly, a divided galaxy would probably just get destroyed by Orks. They don't need the guidance and with nothing to stop their progress they'll spread like a forest fire.
Frankly, that would probably be a better way for humanity to go. As I said "Doing nothing will still kill you. Just slower and happier than what the Imperium done."

Ctan are the most Good faction in 40k prove me wrong
You are correct.
 
Last edited:
Breach of Rule Four
As opposed to the guy who set off two galactic wars, caused half of his military to revolt through mismanagement, and gave his greatest enemy their most effective weapons since ever because of his sheer stunning incompetence.
You mean Logar right? He and Horus planted Cultists and lodges everywhere to start the revolts

and he got fucked over because he loved Horus too much
 
Back
Top