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Sympathy for the heretic

Parth said:
Yes, the imperium is portrayed as sympathetic.

Because the Imperium is made up of humans, it's human nature to sympathize with humans. For the record there are chaos gaunts ghosts.
They're called the blood pact of Khorne.

Yes, you see the imperium as being justified, because Chaos is represented as being that bad, what would you call a faction whose only desire is to destroy everything?
What would you call a faction that only cares about defeating the other three chaos gods so that they can reign supreme?

Chaos doesn't care about anything except its own power, yes Chaos offers freedom.

It's lies, when Angron became a Daemon prince did he become free?
Do these ones look like they're free?

Chaos lies and lures victims in and then twists them into something that is no longer themselves.

Horus fell to Chaos because Chaos told him that Emps planned on turning the Imperium into a grimdark hellhole where he was worshipped as a god and Himself and eight of his brothers would be forgotten.

Horus turned because he believed that it was true.
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Once again, both Chaos and Imperium are fictional. There is nothing stopping authors from just... Making sympathetic Chaos characters or reminding people that Imperium is by far the biggest sponsor of Chaos in the galaxy. They can do whatever the fuck they want, in fact.
 
@Parth this is a classic argument that typically goes like this 'It doesn't work that way because in universe setting issue' 'it should work that way because out of universe author issue'

I would remind you that this thread, sympathy for the heretic, is about a reimagining of 40k.

Why do you even keep coming back here? this isn't the form of 40k you like. Just go back to your standard 40k threads instead of repeatedly sealioning and trying to fight us here. you're not even engaging with the thread's premise. And you clearly don't even like this setting idea.

So why do you want to talk about it so much?!
 
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Alitur said:
Once again, both Chaos and Imperium are fictional. There is nothing stopping authors from just... Making sympathetic Chaos characters or reminding people that Imperium is by far the biggest sponsor of Chaos in the galaxy. They can do whatever the fuck they want, in fact.
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You do realize that 40K is supposed to be a satire of the real world right?

Toning down a faction that is supposed to be a satire of the worst aspects of modern politics is completely and utterly missing the point of them.

If you want sympathetic chaos or you want to remind anyone that the imperium is the biggest sponsor of chaos.

It's called the Tau empire.
 
Parth said:
You do realize that 40K is supposed to be a satire of the real world right?

Toning down a faction that is supposed to be a satire of the worst aspects of modern politics is completely and utterly missing the point of them.

If you want sympathetic chaos or you want to remind anyone that the imperium is the biggest sponsor of chaos.

It's called the Tau empire.
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Is it supposed to be satire? It might have been satire when football hooligans orcs were the main villains, but what the fuck is it actually parodying with current apologia for the Imperium?
 
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Parth said:
You do realize that 40K is supposed to be a satire of the real world right?
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And it satirizes the real world by, what, showing fascists' exactly what they want?

By showing them a world where the strong man does hard things because it's necessary™.

A world where being gay, or agender, or bigender is a direct pathway to turning into an evil monster™.

A world where outsiders who don't behave quite right, perhaps because they're autistic, implies that there's something wrong with them and they're evil monsters™.

A world where everyone must worship the same religion or they're evil monsters™.

A world where physical, mental, or emotional differences means the person is an evil monster™.

Some Satire. Tell me, was Juden Raus! also a satire? Was the International Jew a satire? What makes a work a satire to you, Parth?

All we want from 40k is positive depiction of minorities, and a more honestly negative depiction of ethnic cleansing, religious cleansing, political cleansing, sexual cleansing and the cleansing of the disabled. And by cleansing I don't mean dunking in water and washing them off. I mean the euphemism for mass murder.

A good way to do that seems to be to make chaos more sympathetic.

Games Workshop is not some... god writing down The Truth in paper. They're human beings with human failings. At the start of EACH and every one of their game books is a disclaimer that, essentially, says if you're fighting with the GM about canon, the local GM trumps Games Workshop.

You're fighting with the Local GM @BiopunkOtrera about canon for this version of the setting.
 
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Parth said:
You do realize that 40K is supposed to be a satire of the real world right?

Toning down a faction that is supposed to be a satire of the worst aspects of modern politics is completely and utterly missing the point of them.

If you want sympathetic chaos or you want to remind anyone that the imperium is the biggest sponsor of chaos.

It's called the Tau empire.
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Bruh you do realize that labeling something "satire" isn't a magic spell that instantly counters all criticism right? Satire requires both clarity of purpose and target (otherwise it's pretty much identical to the thing it's meant to be lampooning) and the skill needed to pull the joke off. And even then, you're probably still going to trip up because people are dumb and 9/10 will just accept the thing as is instead of seeing the criticism it's trying to convey.

And like, what is the Imperium meant to be satirizing at this point? If you present a totalitarian fascist theocratic regime and situate it in a world where totalitarian fascist theocracy is a reasonable idea...what's the joke?
 
To be fair to GW I don't think they ever really present the Imperium as reasonable. That's more of a fan thing. The problem, IMHO is the way that they always portray it as a superior alternative to Chaos. Like, 40K has, I think somewhat accidentally kind of hit a certain right-wing antipolitics zeitgeist, where politicians are sure bad, but also better than the alternative.
 
Stop: let's not
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    While the discussion regarding 40k can get heated, it is against the rules to attack the users rather than their arguments. To that end, I would kindly request that everyone be mindful when arguing this topic, charged as it is.

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    Parth said:
    No it honestly hasn't.

    It's satire in the same way that Rick and Morty is satire.

    You have to understand how humor works in order to get it.
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    Because nothing is funnier then "the god emperor purged the heretics and that was a good thing actually because not following the fascist order religiously means your trying to destroy the world and kill all life"
     
    Parth said:
    No it honestly hasn't.

    It's satire in the same way that Rick and Morty is satire.

    You have to understand how humor works in order to get it.
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    Generally speaking, Rick and Morty follows the old comedy wisdoms of "set-up and punchline" and "subversion of expectations". Where is that in the modern 40k?
     
    Parth said:
    I did not in any way shape or form mean that as an insult.
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    "I don't think it is satire, for these reasons."

    "Ignoring your reasons, I'm going to say 'You have to understand how humor works in order to [understand it's satire.]'"

    If you said that Transformers Energon was bad and I said in response that only people who understand what good narratives are like Energon, you'd rightfully assume I was saying that you don't.* Because that's absolutely what I would probably mean in this hypothetical scenario.

    *I literally just picked a TV show out of the top of a hat so that it was unrelated to the topic entirely.
     
    Alitur said:
    Generally speaking, Rick and Morty follows the old comedy wisdoms of "set-up and punchline" and "subversion of expectations". Where is that in the modern 40k?
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    Tell me please, that you do understand the Snake planet from Rick and Morty was making a political statement, and wasn't just making fun of time travel.

    DestinyPlayer said:
    You don't have to mean an insult in order to insult someone. That's kinda basic communication 101.
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    How exactly was I supposed to know someone would take it as an insult?
     
    Parth said:
    Tell me please, that you do understand the Snake planet from Rick and Morty was making a political statement, and wasn't just making fun of time travel.

    How exactly was I supposed to know someone would take it as an insult?
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    I understand that media doesn't have any messages, and that anyone trying to say that it does have political messages is probably just trying to prepare the way for a Second Hayes Code. :V
     
    Parth said:
    Tell me please, that you do understand the Snake planet from Rick and Morty was making a political statement, and wasn't just making fun of time travel.
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    Yeah, and political statement of 40k seems to be "fascist theocracy might suck for you personally, but it sure is over all necessary, and really only requires some common sense efficiency improvements". Sure, there is the whole "worst regime in history stuff", but there are sure a lot of astericks being added by the minute to that statement!
     
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    Parth said:
    Tell me please, that you do understand the Snake planet from Rick and Morty was making a political statement, and wasn't just making fun of time travel.

    How exactly was I supposed to know someone would take it as an insult?
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    Okay Parth, I understand things like this can be tricky for you but I'm going to try and break down why your response was insulting, did not contribute to the discussion, and is now causing this derail.

    The wind up is that some posters (myself included) were pushing back on your justification for the uncomfortable, arguably fascistic subtext present in Warhammer 40k. You defended the subtext as unintentional or justified given in-universe reasons, and then made the larger point that given 40k's ostensible satirical bent, such readings are unfair. I can only speak for myself, but I was arguing that "It's satire!" as a blanket defense is insufficient because satire requires both clarity of purpose and intent alongside the skill to pull it off, implicitly arguing that 40k had neither.

    Responding with this:

    Parth said:
    No it honestly hasn't.

    It's satire in the same way that Rick and Morty is satire.

    You have to understand how humor works in order to get it.
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    Is you telling me that since I do not recognize 40k's satirical nature (akin to Rick and Morty), I therefore do not understand humor, therefore I don't know what I'm talking about and can thus be dismissed. From my perspective you, inserted of choosing to engage with my point, instead insulted me and told me I don't understand comedy.

    Now, irrespective of whether or not you intend to insult me and others (you claim you didn't), do you see how the quoted post comes across as insulting and dismissive? If I said that to you, would you feel like I was taking you seriously and engaging with your argument? Because if the answer's "Yes" (and I think it is!), then you need to either re-evaluate your posting and take a step back or admit you're arguing in bad faith.
     
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    Fundamentally, if it's satire, what is it satire of and does it convey that effectively?

    I can believe that Warhammer has political messages, because I do not think reading meanings and assumptions about the world into a work of fiction is a step towards censorship or anything like it. The question then becomes: "What are those messages? Is it conveying them effectively?"

    People's claims are that it's doing a combination of having bad messages and conveying them poorly.

    There can be bad satire just like there can be bad comedy, romance, drama, or any other genre. So being satire isn't actually a defense.

    E: Oh, well.
     
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