Remove ads

Sympathy for the heretic

Wyzilla said:
It changes the way it's seen, but the issue is that anybody trying to "read into it" is going to suffer the same effect of staring into tea leaves for too long. Fundamentally there is no greater meaning with Warhammer besides "it's cool". Various things were shamelessly ripped off and shoved into it for no other reason than "it's cool", ranging from the Tolkien elements of Elves to the later introduction of the Tyranid, Tau, and Necron factions. Or now, the Primaris Marines.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Dude I did a Let's Read of Strike Legion which is even more blatantly a pastiche of things that the author thought were cool with the bare minimum of connective tissue. Even there it had obvious political messages.

Those messages might have been super basic: "slavery is bad also giving people human rights no matter how they look is good, people can overcome their nature via nurture, theocracy is bad, accountable government is good" but they were still there and still messages and political themes.
 
Optimus Prime is hella cool. But he's also a walking endorsement of enlightenment ideals. His coolness isn't really explicable from the political and social stances he represents, given the context of his presentation.
 
Wyzilla said:
The audience however has subjective individual opinions. It is impossible to concisely reach a consensus regarding any work as there will always be large bodies of people grouping together with differing interpretations that refuse to negotiate. Thus, caring about the individual observer's view of a work is a vain pursuit that will yield nothing and remain an open question until the end of time - with no consensus ever being achieved in the collective of all observers. However, while still infuriatingly subjective, it is possible to mechanically disect a work and also trace the context of its creation to try to parse what goes on behind the eyes of the author, in the same manner an archaeologist might try to uncover the meaning behind a particular embossed scene on a Greek pot. There a reasonable consensus can be achieved as it is based on the actions, background, and interviews of the author(s).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Nooooooo, dude. You're giving me flashbacks here, this is literally day one lit studies stuff. Think this through for like, a second. It's impossible to reach a consensus on the reasonably correct interpretation of a text, because interpretation is too inherently subjective. But it's totally possible to reach a consensus on the reasonably correct interpretation of what was going on in the brain of the author at the time of writing? Using ex post facto accounts of their lives that are themselves texts? Do you really think that hangs together?

Never-even-mind the flagrant hypocrisy of "caring about an individual observer's view of a work is a vain pursuit that will yield nothing" as a follow-up to "All I care about is people actually knowing the source material properly if they're going to discuss it," aka you literally coming in here specifically to tell people their individual interpretations of a work are wrong because they don't align with your interpretation of what the (many) authors' intent was.
 
Last edited:
Look I think we can all agree that alt-right recruiters absolutely do use nerd stuffs like disputes in the field of consuming video games and comics and star wars films and tabletop games to get disaffected young men to like them and their ideas. Gamer gate, comic gate, the cottage industry of youtube video yelling about Admiral SJW and God Emperor Trump memes suggest this, and quite strongly.

The question is, what do we, I. E. non fascist nerds who don't like the idea of putting kids in camps or committing genocide on aliens, do to stop it?

Edit: and equally importantly, can we have that vital discussion in another thread so the harmless nerds can go about planning their fanfiction about evil space revolutionary wizards without this second conversation gumming up the works at cross purposes?
 
Last edited:
Claudette Savagely said:
Look I think we can all agree that alt-right recruiters absolutely do use nerd stuffs like disputes in the field of consuming video games and comics and star wars films and tabletop games to get disaffected young men to like them and their ideas. Gamer gate, comic gate, the cottage industry of youtube video yelling about Admiral SJW and God Emperor Trump memes suggest this, and quite strongly.

The question is, what do we, I. E. non fascist nerds who don't like the idea of putting kids in camps or committing genocide on aliens, do to stop it?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I mean Wyzilla has argued for committing genocide against aliens as precaution here.
 
Claudette Savagely said:
Look I think we can all agree that alt-right recruiters absolutely do use nerd stuffs like disputes in the field of consuming video games and comics and star wars films and tabletop games to get disaffected young men to like them and their ideas. Gamer gate, comic gate, the cottage industry of youtube video yelling about Admiral SJW and God Emperor Trump memes suggest this, and quite strongly.

The question is, what do we, I. E. non fascist nerds who don't like the idea of putting kids in camps or committing genocide on aliens, do to stop it?

Edit: and equally importantly, can we have that vital discussion in another thread so the harmless nerds can go about planning their fanfiction about evil space revolutionary wizards without this second conversation gumming up the works at cross purposes?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Honestly, the two conversations* are pretty close to parallel and naturally go together well IMO, like cookies and milk. The problem arises when people interject yet a third conversation, entirely gratuitously, along the lines of:

"Lol you anti-fascist nerds should stop thinking about all these silly political implications, it's all just a game except when we feel like taking it super-seriously when your criticisms make us uncomfortable by hitting too close to the mark."
_____________________

*(I mean effectively the two conversations boil down to "how do non-fascist nerds stop fascists from using nerd-stuff as an effective recruiting tool" and "how can anti-fascist nerds creatively reimagine and 'take back' the nerd-stuff that is being used as a fascist recruiting tool." The parallels are striking.)
 
Stop: You made me come back
  • Staff Post
    • you made me come back

    @Guy of G, I've been going over your history in this thread and your recent posts. You were removed before because of being disruptive and dishonestly debating. Now that you're back, you're doing similar tactics. Ignoring other people's posts and criticisms is very much a rule 4 violation. Additionally, you've mischaracterized points in the posts below.

    I'm giving you an infraction. 25 points, and you can take a three day thread vacation. When you get back, please be better about this.


    Guy of G said:
    >Fictional empires want you dead

    Are you well friend?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Guy of G said:
    Why are you attemptting to censor my opinion on the subject to maintain your own state of mind? Im not pushing you friend
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Guy of G said:
    If you dont recognize the backround of something...why do you even care is my response to that statement. Theres no discussion of it properly yes people can interpet it as they want but if you dont at least ackowlege what you are working with whats the point at all friend?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
     
  • Staff Post
    • Just as a side note, not... going too far into this conversation, but at least a decent portion of the Imperium seems to have little problem with homosexuality.

    The Cain novels do mention that two of the female officers in the Guard are in a relationship with each other, and while it is a bit obliquely mentioned, it's not really different from the way he talks heterosexual relationships, where he almost dances around the subject due to fraternization concerns rather than any moral judgement.

    Of course, it also mentions things like bordellos as something soldiers regularly visit, and neither Cain nor the Inquisitor reading the stories have any real mention of such being dangerous for fear that these people would end up in the grasp of Chaos for their sexual immorality, though some of the Slaaneshi villains do base themselves out of them.

    Of course, it can be very easily argued that the Cain novels aren't all that representative of the way most people write the setting, so...
     
    Which is sort of illuminating part of the point here. I doubt the Black Library writers or GeeDub's artists are facist, and for the most part probably don't mean to paint all queer people as depraved monsters with Slaneesh. They just sort of end up doing so because That's What Slaneesh Is, and either don't think through the implications of what they're writing or painting. As people who hopefully understand 40k isn't a documentary, we're just saying it doesn't have to be that way.
     
    Sir Bill said:
    Just as a side note, not... going too far into this conversation, but at least a decent portion of the Imperium seems to have little problem with homosexuality.

    The Cain novels do mention that two of the female officers in the Guard are in a relationship with each other, and while it is a bit obliquely mentioned, it's not really different from the way he talks heterosexual relationships, where he almost dances around the subject due to fraternization concerns rather than any moral judgement.

    Of course, it also mentions things like bordellos as something soldiers regularly visit, and neither Cain nor the Inquisitor reading the stories have any real mention of such being dangerous for fear that these people would end up in the grasp of Chaos for their sexual immorality, though some of the Slaaneshi villains do base themselves out of them.

    Of course, it can be very easily argued that the Cain novels aren't all that representative of the way most people write the setting, so...
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    As I've mentioned before, Commissar Yarrick is canonically gay.
     
    DonBosco said:
    As I've mentioned before, Commissar Yarrick is canonically gay.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Ah, right, I'd forgotten that, sorry. (Or rather, I remembered the fact that it was mentioned, just not in this thread, because, well, we've had nearly fifty pages of discussion with a lot of arguing as well, and I've recently been reading other arguments about 40K as well, so what's been learned here tends to blur in with what I've read elsewhere.)

    All that said, Slaanesh, as written, is one of the most problematic Chaos God and honestly, if it weren't for the Eldar, the most expendable of the Chaos gods in terms of plot.

    "Problematic" because, well, they're a Chaos god of excess, but most of the ways to show horrible evil excess are drug addicts (and showing addicts as villains has issues, though a portrayal more focused on the dealer might work, emphasizing the exploitation of vulnerable people, but then a dealer who doesn't sample his own product isn't very Slaaneshi), horrible murder rapists (... yeah) or depraved artists ("Ah, there is no art without suffering! I will adorn these walls with the mutilated corpses of people I've tortured to death, which is EVIL and entirely unlike what the Imperium does, with its affixing skulls everywhere and horribly torturing people and making them into servitors or even building Cherubim and... look, I'm evil, they're not, okay?").

    So they're either problematic or just not all that interesting as villains. I mean, you can tell a lot of interesting stories with servants of the other gods, but Slaanesh is probably the most boring of them. I've been bouncing around fanfiction ideas in my head for years and while I have a decent enough roster of Chaos characters for each of the gods who I think are somewhat interesting, I basically have nothing for Slaanesh because, eh.

    The only downside to getting rid of Slaanesh is the effect on the Eldar, because I kind of like the super-Vulcan aspect to their characters. (Forcing themselves to be certain Paths (where the Vulkans just forced themselves into logic) because they're actually an extremely emotional species that need such bindings to keep them sane).

    I guess it could be said that rather than being bound to She Who Thirsts, that the Warp's general instability combined with every Eldar being a psyker meaning that strong emotions will still get them sent to the nasty parts of the Warp if they don't keep strictly disciplined, without too much active predation by a single party.

    Just as a side note, I like the idea that maybe the Imperium paints a lot of things as Chaos that aren't necessarily Chaos, I like the idea of non-Imperium human factions that actually manage to do all right and maybe even better than the Imperium with fewer compromises (I like the Imperium as it is, but I like it as a tragedy, and showing ways that the Imperium could be better without making itself vulnerable would help to make that tragedy more apparent), and possibly some non-evil aspects of the warp, but I do prefer that there is a core of Chaos that is evil. Maybe there are discarded good parts somewhere, maybe those good aspects are just waiting to be found again, but I do think that there should be evil Chaos.
     
    Sir Bill said:
    I will adorn these walls with the mutilated corpses of people I've tortured to death, which is EVIL and entirely unlike what the Imperium does, with its affixing skulls everywhere and horribly torturing people and making them into servitors or even building Cherubim and... look, I'm evil, they're not, okay?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    "Listen. Liiiiisten. Do you know, do you know how the Imperium makes it's servitors? I do. I worked for them, once. I know the twisted, perverse acts they engage in- the piercing of the flesh, the flaying of the mind that leaves the subject a devoted, hollow husk of what they once were, good only for obeying their master's orders.

    "Do you want to know what's going to be different about what I do to you?

    "You'll enjoy every. Single. Second of my ministrations."
     
    DonBosco said:
    Also, the Imperium and intolerance go together like peanut butter and jelly.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    ...That's my point. I'm a bit suspicious of people claiming that the Imperium's tolerant of homosexuality, when we've got Slannesh's... everything near the top of the Imperium's list of awful things that should not be done and you're a bad person for doing.
     
    Hakazin said:
    ...That's my point. I'm a bit suspicious of people claiming that the Imperium's tolerant of homosexuality, when we've got Slannesh's... everything near the top of the Imperium's list of awful things that should not be done and you're a bad person for doing.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Eh let's not ignore the ability of the human mind to compartmentalize and sustain doublethink, especially when you think you're the good guys so obviously what you're doing can't at all be like those evil things Those People do.
     
    On a creative level, GW is in the odd position of having to keep up the grimdark... while also making the Imperium's agents still viable as protagonists. And for some reason, readers can be more put off by regular, everyday homophobia and colourism than say, mass scale genocide of whole planets and converting children into decorative candle holders.
     
    Wizard of Woah! said:
    So, essentially, Chaos is the Imperium's International Jewish Conspiracy?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    ?

    Not... really? (Did you quote the right part of that paragraph, since I'm not sure how what you said follows from the part that you quoted?)

    I'd like Chaos to genuinely be evil, I mean, they're demons and all that, but it's not incompatible with the Imperium as a tragedy that makes its own problems. All the lies the Imperium tells its citizens can lead to them, when learning of the lies, doing a Boy Who Cried Wolf bit when dealing with true things the Imperium told them, leading to them getting exploited by the other evils.

    Then you have people screwed over by the uncaring bureaucracy and not having enough food finding the only salvation they can with people they maybe shouldn't trust but don't find that they have a choice.

    Then you have a guy who had a friend of his get killed by an overzealous inquisitor, who decides that, hey, maybe there are some weird noises from his neighbors house, but on the chance that it's totally innocuous, maybe he doesn't want to get the guy killed for nothing.

    The people who have been screwed over and spited by their own government deciding to try to team up with the only people they see standing against them, because honestly, fuck the Imperium that much.

    And, of course, all of these people doing things like this completely and entirely justify the Imperium using more extreme measures against them.

    There might be a core of genuine evil Chaos, but it would be far, far more manageable if the Imperium weren't so tyrannical. The Imperium and its oh so necessary cruelties fuels Chaos, and Chaos "justifies" the Imperium as a perverse symbiosis fueling the depraved state the Imperium is in now.

    So many of their original countermeasures have been twisted to prevent change, because change is risky, but that change was by and large the only way chance there was for things to actually get better, since the Imperium cannot win in its current state.

    (And hell, the realms of Chaos are supposed to represent the emotional state of the galaxy. Chaos isn't going to be benevolent while the Imperium is the way that it is, but maybe if they actually toned things down a bit, maybe then Chaos would actually be a bit more benign. Of course, the odds of that happening are, well...)
     
    Broken Base said:
    Eh let's not ignore the ability of the human mind to compartmentalize and sustain doublethink, especially when you think you're the good guys so obviously what you're doing can't at all be like those evil things Those People do.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Again, that's my point. Doublethinking your way into thinking of yourself as tolerant /= being tolerant. Certainly, I'd imagine some members of the Imperium would think of themselves as tolerant. They just... aren't, by any objective standard.

    Mind, all of this is just inference from human behavior and what bigots tend to act like when faced with inconsistency. I've got no idea if there's been an actual, direct canonical statement on the subject of the Imperium's opinions of homosexuality.
     
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top