Remove ads

Sympathy for the heretic

FBH said:
Despite being much more different.

TBH it also frustrates me that GW seems so reluctant to like, do some actual SF stuff with their SF setting. I want a dog soldier army, or some other wierd xenos.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Tau auxiliaries were a huge missed opportunity for Geedubs to try out all sorts of weird and wonderful aliens without having to commit to a whole faction of them, but no, they had to give them a series of increasingly ridiculous mecha instead...
The Tau as a hardish, relatively sane, idealistic and competent Scifi faction thrown into the 40k lunacy were far more interesting than Imperium 2: In Tau Empire, Xenos purge YOU!

IfIhadaHammer said:
What's even more frustrating is that the Exodite Eldar are much more than just Wood Elves in space but they get far less limelight and continually shafted by GW and will probably never get a codex or models which only get to go to new increasingly obscure Imperium factions.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

"We need a new faction"

"Hmm. Bring back the squats? Eldar Exodites?"

"What, you want dwarves and wood elves in 40k? How unoriginal!"

"Alright, Hrud."

"Too inhuman."

"Wait, you want a new faction that's original but not inhuman? Uh, Chaos aligned cultists and beastmen? Lost and the Damned were pretty popular back in the day."

"Needs more pauldrons."

"What?"

"Like, we have Space marines, and we have elite space marines, but do we have the Emperor's personal bodyguard? No! Now that would be an original faction idea! And people want more female troops so-"

"We give the Sisters of Battle plastic models and include female heads and torsos on guard sprues? And actually give them some female special characters? Tech-Priestesses? Or say Cawl worked out how to make female space marines?"

"No, we bring back the Sisters of Silence, a faction of power armoured fanatics loyal only to the Emperor! It'll be great!"

*facepalm*
 
To be fair, Sisters of Silence were for 30K and then later bootstrapped over to 40K. And beast men did make a comeback with the Thousand Sons Codex. I wouldn't be surprised if Exodites and others (but not squats) made some sort of comeback in the next few years depending on how plastic SoB sell.
 
DonBosco said:
To be fair, Sisters of Silence were for 30K and then later bootstrapped over to 40K. And beast men did make a comeback with the Thousand Sons Codex. I wouldn't be surprised if Exodites and others (but not squats) made some sort of comeback in the next few years depending on how plastic SoB sell.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You say not squats, but given we've gotten a Squat bounty hunter model for Necromunda, I refuse to make bets on anything at this point.

Plus, Squats are Imperium technically, that gives them way better odds of being added that Exodites.
 
DonBosco said:
To be fair, Sisters of Silence were for 30K and then later bootstrapped over to 40K. And beast men did make a comeback with the Thousand Sons Codex. I wouldn't be surprised if Exodites and others (but not squats) made some sort of comeback in the next few years depending on how plastic SoB sell.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
By getting a separate plastic set of kits from the 30k Forgeworld minis. Alongside the Adeptus Custodes, who get multiple plastic squad types and their own frikkin' jetbikes while the Sisters of Battle languish in obscurity until 2019. It just annoys me how GW insists on cranking out new varieties of extra-special space marines(even the Beastmen were as auxiliaries to Codex: Tomb King Marines) rather than giving neglected factions some love or doing anything genuinely new.
 
MatthewShredder said:
I have zero interest in the wider discussions going on in this thread but I feel this isn't 100% accurate. You might be inclined to read the novella Broken Sword written by Guy Haley, which is about human civilian life in the Tau Empire, and how despite all its flaws and the admittedly problematic government system, the Tau Empire is far better than the Imperium of Man.

Have the prologue of the novel as a quote:
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean, yes, but the overall depiction of 40k isn't only Guy Haley. Maybe if it was, I'd have fewer problems with it, and @FBH wouldn't be reacting as negatively against it.
 
Balaur said:
The Tau auxiliaries were a huge missed opportunity for Geedubs to try out all sorts of weird and wonderful aliens without having to commit to a whole faction of them, but no, they had to give them a series of increasingly ridiculous mecha instead...
The Tau as a hardish, relatively sane, idealistic and competent Scifi faction thrown into the 40k lunacy were far more interesting than Imperium 2: In Tau Empire, Xenos purge YOU!
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That was the original idea with the Tau. But then fanboys threw a tautrum.
 
FBH said:
It's a long running conspiracy theory that has him being replaced by IIRC the head of the Illuminati, it was featured in the revolutions podcast, which is where I heard about it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

...

The Illuminati would have loved Washington. They wanted enlightenment stuff like female suffrage and shit.

What the hell.
 
Yeah, it used to be that the prevailing notion among conspiracy theorists was that many if not all the Founders were in on the Illuminati and other 18th century conspiracies. Although when you're a conspiracy theorist, there's a very fine and easily crossed line between saying "X was an ally of Conspiracy Y" and "X was killed by Conspiracy Y." Because at the core of conspiracy theorizing is this habit of just randomly throwing Mad Libs shit at a wall and seeing if you can explain a random 10% of the facts while ignoring 90%.

It's very easy to change your conspiracy theory on the fly based on which way the political winds are blowing.
 
IfIhadaHammer said:
You say not squats, but given we've gotten a Squat bounty hunter model for Necromunda, I refuse to make bets on anything at this point.

Plus, Squats are Imperium technically, that gives them way better odds of being added that Exodites.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Also the Kharadron overlords (dwarfs with another name, for copyright reasons) came out recently in Age of Sigmar. They look like this:
I'd say that they're very easy to fit in 40k, even as is.
 
Gitaxian said:
With that in mind, let's talk about the Dark Age of Technology. (It's always surprised me how few people see the intended irony in that name.) Every account we have of it describes it as the golden age of humanity, our peak by every measure. And every account we have of its fall is blatantly contradictory. We're told humanity was too trusting of abhumans and psykers, yet the Imperium regularly employs both whenever it finds them useful - psykers even being allowed to We're told advanced technology is too dangerous and will bring about our doom, while the Imperium desperately tries to recreate it, and the excerpt about the Spirit of Eternity above suggests maybe our technology had a point. We're told that any deviation from the Imperial creed will inevitably bring about humanity's destruction while the Imperium's own inevitable downfall is occurring. We know a better world is possible because it has existed before, but the Imperium has no interest in creating one.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We have multiple times seen psykers bring about doom to worlds before the Imperium existed and while it existed and the lore has worlds that didn't tolerate psykers survive aka before the Imperium existed. The DAoT collapse was even in part caused by psykers. Also, DAoT humanity have performed genocide of aliens who happened to be in their way to take a planet. This is from a codex so from GW itself and DAoT humanity made nanites that infect people and cause them to explode in showers of blood. Peace loving hippies these guys aren't.

Btw, a quote about the Men of Iron rebellion:
perpetual audio drama said:
'I think the tail end of M23.' He knew this answer would need expansion.

'Circa 23000 AD by the old calendar. The last few centuries of the Dark Age of Technology.'

Zibes paused, the heel of bread hoisted to his mouth but forgotten.

'Which is?'

Cat sat up straighter. 'During the long rebellion of the Iron Men. The cataclysm that led to the Malthusian Catastrophe.'

The city was a deep, meandering place of dark stone. The locals called it Andrioch. It was a human colony from the days of the First Stellar Exodus and Oll fancied that it had once been magnificent.

But there had been some sort of misadventure. probably due to the technology wars that marred this bleak era of humanity. The dark stone of this city was dark because it was stained, perhaps with soot or by radiation burns. The cliff that the city overhung plunged away into the center of the world. If you peered down you could see, throught the cluds of vapor, the glow of the magmatic furnace that was the planets core far below.

'I think Androich was twice this size once. Half of if looks like it was torn away by whatever created this cliff. There were weapons in the older days that could do it. Weapons of immesurable power. Tech-devices employed by both the Iron Men and the alliances that stood against their cybernetic revolt.'

Oll remembered the horrors of Entropic Engines that ignited planets. Sun-snuffers that uncoiled like serpents the size of Saturns rings. Mechnivores ingesting data along with the cities that contained them and hurling continents into the heavens. Omniphage swarms stripping flesh from a billion bones in the blink of an eye.

'Oh, those were the good old days. When war was something too colossal for human minds to comprehend. Not like the End War. The Warmasters Heresy is smaller thing, scaled for human and post-human brains. But it's bigger in some ways.'

'Yes, bigger than the godlike struggles of the Cybernetic Revolt. Bigger in scope, bigger in its implications. More horrible because humanity can apprehend it and drive it.'

Although he did not say so, Oll Persson believed that a Mechnivore had bitten Andrioch in two. A rogue unit perhaps. Though by that latter stage of the revolt almost all machines were rogue. Their Abominable Intelligence querulously hunting for friends but perceiving everything as enemies.

The citizens of Andrioch were pale ghosts. Like things that had lived in a cave, lacking colour or health or effective eyesight. Their skin was translucent. They did not interact with Oll and his band but spent their days and nights in the rotten pits of their dwellings, wired into constant datafeeds sutured into their eyes and scalps. Feeding of some illusion of normal life, while they waited for the Mechaniclysm to end.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Perfectly understandable why the Emp goes, AI is bad news.

"You can't use the powers of chaos to do good, they're inherenty corrupting and too dangerous."
The Imperium directly sanctions the use of the powers of chaos and the warp all the time, that's literally what psykers do.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Nitpick, Warp usage for good is fine. Chaos usage for good is stupid. Thats what chaos wants so they can make people fall. Horus and Angron are perfect examples of this.

hell, by lore from FFG, Khorne does his best to make small wars into big genocidal wars. Chaos is about extremes and making one stop caring about why you are doing what you are doing and just do it for the gods and it feels good. Chaos gods are laughing on high.

"The Imperium is necessary to fend off galaxy-wide threats like the Beast."
Even if we assume a united human polity is necessary, there's zero reason to assume the Imperium is a particularly good model for one and lots of evidence that it's completely awful at it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Considering that the orks and rangdans ate through multiple astartes legions, required the Emp to get involved for both races, may have killed a primarch for the Rangdans and may have required use of C'tan or C'tan shard by Emperor for the Rangdans. I don't put much hope for anyone else.

"The Imperium isn't actually that bad of a place to live, the admech isn't horribly ritualistic and preventing technological development, etc."
It is literally a part of the blurb at the beginning of every single core rulebook that the Imperium is the *cruelest and most bloody regime imagineable.*
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
First Dark eldar exist and worlds that suck ass but are not part of the Imperium exist and people bring up examples that have shown up in the lore itself. if you have problem with this, take it up with GW and BL.


Sorry for the multiple quotes. Its just every point is deserving of its own reply. Cause issue is complicated. Will stop any more multiple quotes from here.
 
Last edited:
Aranfan said:
I mean, Prospero seems to done fine during the Age of Strife.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Prospero was a planet that had warp creatures living on it that used people for hosts for their kids and was settled by psykers that fled other worlds IIRC. I never said all psykers were ticking time bombs. Just that they are and can doom worlds. Especially during the early years of psyker emergence.

And the Emp is not anti-psyker. He wants to control humanities psyker ascension but not stop it cause it can't be stopped. Again, the lore keeps saying that the number of psykers is increasing for the human race
The webway. Mankind is ascending, Ra. Humanity is taking a great developmental step, evolving into a psychic race. Uncontrolled psykers are lodestones for the warp's touch. A species comprising them would suffer as the eldar suffered. And for the eldar, this evolutionary juncture was their final step before destruction. I will not let humanity be destroyed by the same fate. The eldar had the answers within their grasp but were too naive and too proud to save themselves. They had the webway, which could have been their salvation. But they never fully severed their connection to the warp. Their soulfires drew damnation upon their entire species.'

Ra knew this, yet never had it been related to him in these exact words, flavoured as they were by the promise of prophecy. With the webway, humanity would need no Navigators. They would never need to rely on the unreliable warp-whispers of astropaths. Vessels would never enter the warp to be lost or torn apart by the entities that dwelt within it. But the eldar had done the same, had they not? +No. They eradicated their reliance on the warp but they never severed their species' connection to it. I will do that for humanity, once and for all.+

Ra twisted in the nothingness, turning to stare at the light of so many distant stars. He faced Terra without knowing how he knew its direction, only knowing that he was right. One of those pinprick starlights was Sol, so far away.

I have conquered humanity's cradle-world. I have conquered the galaxy, in order to shape mankind's development as it at last evolves into a psychic race. No isolated pockets of our species may remain free, lest in their ignorance they invite destruction upon us all. I have shattered the hold of faith and fear over the human mind. Superstition and religion must continue to be outlawed, for they are easy doors for the warp's denizens to enter the human heart. This is what we have already done. And soon I will offer humanity a way of interstellar travel without reliance upon Geller fields and Navigators. I will offer them means of communicating between worlds without reliance on the warp-dreams of astropaths. And when the Imperium shields the entire species within the laws of my Pax Imperialis, when humanity is freed from the warp and united beneath my vision, I can at last shepherd mankind's growth into a psychic race.+ The primarchs, thought Ra. The Thunder Legion. The Unification Wars. The Great Crusade. The Space Marine Legions. The Imperial Truth. The Webway Project. The Black Ships, with psykers huddled in the holds, watched over by the Silent Sisterhood. It is all about–

Control. Tyranny is not the end, Ra. Absolute control is but the means to the end.+ The hubris… Ra couldn't fight the insidiously treacherous thought, to see the hidden depths of his master's ambitions. The sheer, unrivalled hubris.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

What the Emp says is backed up by the Death of Integrity AI where Chaos swallows all and said AI hates the Imperium. Xeno cabal that plotted humanities extinction during the GC and HH said the same thing. Codexes, even Chaos say the same thing.

Whether you agree on how he went about things is not what we are discussing about. But about how psykers are dangerous and about Chaos.
 
Last edited:
Space Penguin said:
We have multiple times seen psykers bring about doom to worlds before the Imperium existed and while it existed and the lore has worlds that didn't tolerate psykers survive aka before the Imperium existed. The DAoT collapse was even in part caused by psykers. Also, DAoT humanity have performed genocide of aliens who happened to be in their way to take a planet. This is from a codex so from GW itself and DAoT humanity made nanites that infect people and cause them to explode in showers of blood. Peace loving hippies these guys aren't.

Btw, a quote about the Men of Iron rebellion:

Perfectly understandable why the Emp goes, AI is bad news.

Nitpick, Warp usage for good is fine. Chaos usage for good is stupid. Thats what chaos wants so they can make people fall. Horus and Angron are perfect examples of this.

hell, by lore from FFG, Khorne does his best to make small wars into big genocidal wars. Chaos is about extremes and making one stop caring about why you are doing what you are doing and just do it for the gods and it feels good. Chaos gods are laughing on high.


Considering that the orks and rangdans ate through multiple astartes legions, required the Emp to get involved for both races, may have killed a primarch for the Rangdans and may have required use of C'tan or C'tan shard by Emperor for the Rangdans. I don't put much hope for anyone else.

First Dark eldar exist and worlds that suck ass but are not part of the Imperium exist and people bring up examples that have shown up in the lore itself. if you have problem with this, take it up with GW and BL.


Sorry for the multiple quotes. Its just every point is deserving of its own reply. Cause issue is complicated. Will stop any more multiple quotes from here.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I am gonna be honest, sun eating snake ships the size of Saturn's rings are pretty fucking awesome.
 
Aranfan said:
...

The Illuminati would have loved Washington. They wanted enlightenment stuff like female suffrage and shit.

What the hell.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Obviously, the reason the Illuminati loved 'Washington' was because they replaced Washington with a mind-controlled body double. There is no other reason why a figurehead of American Independence and a Lover of Liberty would support *shudder* liberal ideology.


[/RWing]
 
Sabertooth said:
I wonder what kind of firepower would it take to kill one of those. If one was found intact by any other faction...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Who exactly? For Eldar its not their style. DE have probably worse tech they can pull out if they want. Necrons have worse somewhere locked up. Tau have star busters last I checked. Also, some Tau have lost their minds cause the idea of a god based on Tau ideals is heresy so they are cleasing the auxillaries that created said being. Of course, it could just be tzeencth trolling.

Orks just need to go beast and they can make something like this. Nids just eat things.
 
Space Penguin said:
Who exactly? For Eldar its not their style. DE have probably worse tech they can pull out if they want. Necrons have worse somewhere locked up. Tau have star busters last I checked. Also, some Tau have lost their minds cause the idea of a god based on Tau ideals is heresy so they are cleasing the auxillaries that created said being. Of course, it could just be tzeencth trolling.

Orks just need to go beast and they can make something like this. Nids just eat things.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

There´s a Greater Good god now?
 
Space Penguin said:
Considering that the orks and rangdans ate through multiple astartes legions, required the Emp to get involved for both races, may have killed a primarch for the Rangdans and may have required use of C'tan or C'tan shard by Emperor for the Rangdans. I don't put much hope for anyone else.

First Dark eldar exist and worlds that suck ass but are not part of the Imperium exist and people bring up examples that have shown up in the lore itself. if you have problem with this, take it up with GW and BL.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We could argue back and forth on specific pieces of lore but I've already had that debate dozens of times and you aren't bringing any new ideas to the table there. Instead I'm going to focus on the core of our disagreement.

First, *why* are you so convinced the emperor's the only one who can protect humanity? I keep seeing that line from 40k fans, but I've never seen convincing reasoning behind it. Are you really saying everything he did was justified and the Imperium he's responsible for is the best possible state for humanity to live in within the 40k universe? And to be clear, "he's the only one powerful enough" isn't a justification.

Second, telling me to "take it up with GW and BL" is absurd. Again, it's their explicit policy that you can interpret the lore how you want and there is no true canon. If you want to argue against my interpretation it's on you to justify yours.
 
Last edited:
Personally I'm fond of some of the implications that the Imperium is really just a continuation of terribleness from the Dark Age of Technology. Gellar fields and warp engines work via nomming psykers, the "of Mars" trilogy has some absurd DAoT assassination devices, the mind altering effects of the Knights, the bloodtide was a nanoswarm from the DAoT to drown worlds in blood, Ogryns are prison world descendants, Butcher's Nails, etc.

Sabertooth said:
There´s a Greater Good god now?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yup, though a minor one (warp is gonna warp when you have psychic races). Though the purging is more due to the fact that the 4th expansion got stuck in the warp and daemons being drawn to said psychic auxiliary races.
 
One of my biggest issues with the Warhammer setting, really, is that the way they describe Chaos derives from how Lovecraft describes cults, which almost always really anti-semitic.

Like, 'Jews are sacrificing your children' trope and the 'Jews want to replace your culture with their own, which is degenerate,' and so on and so forth, are all pretty clearly tied into chaos cults.
 
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top