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Sympathy for the heretic

comradepitrovsky said:
One of my biggest issues with the Warhammer setting, really, is that the way they describe Chaos derives from how Lovecraft describes cults, which almost always really anti-semitic.

Like, 'Jews are sacrificing your children' trope and the 'Jews want to replace your culture with their own, which is degenerate,' and so on and so forth, are all pretty clearly tied into chaos cults.
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So just to be clear, this comment applies to evil cults in general not just 40k right?

Cause 40k chaos cults are just generic evil cults used in plenty of stories not 40k. Nothing special about them. So your comment should be that all evil cults are problematic cause they use lovecrat inspiration which is anti-semitic.

Chaos cults in 40k aren't based on any ethnic basis or racial or even species basis. All can be chaos if they simply allow themselves to fall or worship chaos. I'm talking about its followers here not where the idea of evil cults came from.

If you think that the races in setting are wrong for opposing chaos cults, I doubt they much care. More caring about self preservation then anything else.

And this is not an imperium sin alone. Eldar do it too. Cabal were planning whole sale genocide of humans to kill/cripple chaos so any cults among other races would have been suppressed by them too imo.

DonBosco said:
Personally I'm fond of some of the implications that the Imperium is really just a continuation of terribleness from the Dark Age of Technology. Gellar fields and warp engines work via nomming psykers, the "of Mars" trilogy has some absurd DAoT assassination devices, the mind altering effects of the Knights, the bloodtide was a nanoswarm from the DAoT to drown worlds in blood, Ogryns are prison world descendants, Butcher's Nails, etc.
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Not impossible but there are always mentions that life was wonderful for humans during the DAoT and tech was OP during that era. So maybe life was ideal for humanity except for those who didn't buy into the system and life for them was terrible? But majority did and thus why the era is seen as wondeful for humanity.

Is that your idea in a nutshell?

Gitaxian said:
We could argue back and forth on specific pieces of lore but I've already had that debate dozens of times and you aren't bringing any new ideas to the table there. Instead I'm going to focus on the core of our disagreement.

First, *why* are you so convinced the emperor's the only one who can protect humanity? I keep seeing that line from 40k fans, but I've never seen convincing reasoning behind it. Are you really saying everything he did was justified and the Imperium he's responsible for is the best possible state for humanity to live in within the 40k universe? And to be clear, "he's the only one powerful enough" isn't a justification.

Second, telling me to "take it up with GW and BL" is absurd. Again, it's their explicit policy that you can interpret the lore how you want and there is no true canon. If you want to argue against my interpretation it's on you to justify yours.
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I take the bold as the most important part of this post. From what I see, you see your interpretation from bits of lore you like as correct cause tagline and anything else is nonsense. Like how people say the admech is all stupid and rituals despite how a member of them can somehow create a perpetual motion engine and they are capable of reverse engineering xeno tech or even recognizing stellar phenomena but taglines say they are all dumb. So you go with all rituals and they are all dumb interpretation instead of looking at the whole.

I don't see any point in discussing anything further between us as it will go nowhere. You can have the last word if you wish.
 
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Space Penguin said:
So just to be clear, this comment applies to evil cults in general not just 40k right?

Cause 40k chaos cults are just generic evil cults used in plenty of stories not 40k. Nothing special about them. So your comment should be that all evil cults are problematic cause they use lovecrat inspiration which is anti-semitic.

Chaos cults in 40k aren't based on any ethnic basis or racial or even species basis. All can be chaos if they simply allow themselves to fall or worship chaos. I'm talking about its followers here not where the idea of evil cults came from.
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Remember people talking about how in The Phantom Menace a lot of the unsympathetic characters came across as being racist caricatures?

Like, Jar Jar Binks is a frog-alien-thing, not a human- and yet he is basically a 19th century minstrel show caricature wearing a rubber alien suit, in terms of his performance. He's clumsy, reckless, feckless, goofy, stupid, crass, boastful, and speaks broken English in a setting where just about everyone else except Yoda is coherent and grammatical. Could it be a coincidence? Sure, maybe, buuuuut...

Well, there are three or four different groups in the same movie that all strongly draw on one or another of the various racial stereotypes Western society has created over the centuries. Ultimately, the line between a stereotype and an archetype can get pretty thin sometimes. "Evil cultists" are 'generic,' we say, but where does that even come from? Why does modern Western society have such a united and coherent image of robed cultists practicing secret human sacrifices and concealing the deforming marks of their dark and anti-holy deity from the fine and upstanding public?

That's the kind of question people are trying to ask here.

It's not about just unreflectively staring at the source material, going "it is what it is," and walking off to spend the rest of your life with its memes colonizing your brain. It's about actually understanding those memes and being able to put them into context.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Remember people talking about how in The Phantom Menace a lot of the unsympathetic characters came across as being racist caricatures?

Like, Jar Jar Binks is a frog-alien-thing, not a human- and yet he is basically a 19th century minstrel show caricature wearing a rubber alien suit, in terms of his performance. He's clumsy, reckless, feckless, goofy, stupid, crass, boastful, and speaks broken English in a setting where just about everyone else except Yoda is coherent and grammatical. Could it be a coincidence? Sure, maybe, buuuuut...

Well, there are three or four different groups in the same movie that all strongly draw on one or another of the various racial stereotypes Western society has created over the centuries. Ultimately, the line between a stereotype and an archetype can get pretty thin sometimes. "Evil cultists" are 'generic,' we say, but where does that even come from? Why does modern Western society have such a united and coherent image of robed cultists practicing secret human sacrifices and concealing the deforming marks of their dark and anti-holy deity from the fine and upstanding public?

That's the kind of question people are trying to ask here.

It's not about just unreflectively staring at the source material, going "it is what it is," and walking off to spend the rest of your life with its memes colonizing your brain. It's about actually understanding those memes and being able to put them into context.
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Oh I fully get your point. My question is why is this presented as a 40k thing. 40k didn't originate the evil cult idea. The evil cult is older then 40k. 40k at least has it that its not a race/ethnic thing or even species thing.
 
Space Penguin said:
Oh I fully get your point. My question is why is this presented as a 40k thing. 40k didn't originate the evil cult idea. The evil cult is older then 40k. 40k at least has it that its not a race/ethnic thing or even species thing.
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40K doesn't really originate anything much, but it kinda still plays into a lot of them.

Like, (((Degenerate Arcane Cults))) is an antisemetic stereotype going back to the 19th century.

This doesn't mean that all works that use it are bad, but it raises my eyebrows when one side are such obvious fascists while the other are like, demonic versions of everyone fascism hates.
 
FBH said:
40K doesn't really originate anything much, but it kinda still plays into a lot of them.

Like, (((Degenerate Arcane Cults))) is an antisemetic stereotype going back to the 19th century.

This doesn't mean that all works that use it are bad, but it raises my eyebrows when one side are such obvious fascists while the other are like, demonic versions of everyone fascism hates.
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So its an issue cause the Imperium is fascist.

*shrug*

I personally don't get it but at least someone explains why your guys side seems to have issues with 40k using the evil cult thing. So kudos.

If it makes you feel better. People not Imperium hate chaos too including its cults and thus have plotted and implemented or just plotted multiple genocides and xenocides against each other and against chaos.
 
Simon_Jester said:
"Evil cultists" are 'generic,' we say, but where does that even come from? Why does modern Western society have such a united and coherent image of robed cultists practicing secret human sacrifices and concealing the deforming marks of their dark and anti-holy deity from the fine and upstanding public?
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I'm guessing it's based on stuff like the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and other occult societies that were prominent in the early 20th century.
 
Space Penguin said:
Not impossible but there are always mentions that life was wonderful for humans during the DAoT and tech was OP during that era. So maybe life was ideal for humanity except for those who didn't buy into the system and life for them was terrible? But majority did and thus why the era is seen as wondeful for humanity.

Is that your idea in a nutshell?
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One part "It's an assumption of wonderful that isn't true," one part "The ones who walk away from Omelas."
 
SeptimusMagisto said:
I'm guessing it's based on stuff like the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and other occult societies that were prominent in the early 20th century.
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I figure the line of descent has, uh... a clean side and a seamy side.

The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and whatnot are the sense in which Western society comes by the idea of secretive robed cultists "honorably." One can also throw in various clubs and associations that had secret membership rites during the same period that weren't overtly mystical, and for that matter organizations like the Ku Klux Klan that were clearly dangerous but that we today would agree weren't being unfairly maligned.

But there is also the kind of, ah, "secret cult" that the original Catholic countries' Inquisition existed to root out. The kind that mostly went around looking for secret Jews and Muslims, destroying people for worshipping wrongly. Torturing people for falsely avowing a new religion to avoid being persecuted by the new religion's followers. Or even destroying people for worshipping their own deity, but doing it 'incorrectly.'

And it was from these older, darker stories of "secret cults" that Western civilization gets many of the memes about the cults being actively dangerous. The idea that they sacrifice people. The idea that they commit crimes. The idea that they conspire to spread disease, overthrow or enthrall national leaders, or sell out the country to foreigners.

Lovecraft's terrifying cults owe a lot more to the mentality of anti-Semitism and witch-burnings than they do to the Hermetic Order or for that matter the Ku Klux Klan, even though the KKK was objectively around and active in Lovecraft's time and actually did gather in robed mobs to ritually murder people!
 
Simon_Jester said:
I figure the line of descent has, uh... a clean side and a seamy side.

The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and whatnot are the sense in which Western society comes by the idea of secretive robed cultists "honorably." One can also throw in various clubs and associations that had secret membership rites during the same period that weren't overtly mystical, and for that matter organizations like the Ku Klux Klan that were clearly dangerous but that we today would agree weren't being unfairly maligned.

But there is also the kind of, ah, "secret cult" that the original Catholic countries' Inquisition existed to root out. The kind that mostly went around looking for secret Jews and Muslims, destroying people for worshipping wrongly. Torturing people for falsely avowing a new religion to avoid being persecuted by the new religion's followers. Or even destroying people for worshipping their own deity, but doing it 'incorrectly.'

And it was from these older, darker stories of "secret cults" that Western civilization gets many of the memes about the cults being actively dangerous. The idea that they sacrifice people. The idea that they commit crimes. The idea that they conspire to spread disease, overthrow or enthrall national leaders, or sell out the country to foreigners.

Lovecraft's terrifying cults owe a lot more to the mentality of anti-Semitism and witch-burnings than they do to the Hermetic Order or for that matter the Ku Klux Klan, even though the KKK was objectively around and active in Lovecraft's time and actually did gather in robed mobs to ritually murder people!
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Pretty much correct. This is the springboard for every evil cult in fiction.

Which is why I say I'm confused. Nothing 40k cults do is something DND or darker fantasy rpg or setting cults won't do. The seeking to enthrall national leaders or leadership or wealthy in general and dabbling in sacrifices and demons. Describes the generic evil cult that has been used time and time again or hell can even be said to describe a generic evil conspiracy that has appeared over and over again which were absolutely false and nonsense in our life but made to be true for bad guys in fiction.
 
Space Penguin said:
Pretty much correct. This is the springboard for every evil cult in fiction.

Which is why I say I'm confused. Nothing 40k cults do is something DND or darker fantasy rpg or setting cults won't do. The seeking to enthrall national leaders or leadership or wealthy in general and dabbling in sacrifices and demons. Describes the generic evil cult that has been used time and time again or hell can even be said to describe a generic evil conspiracy that has appeared over and over again which were absolutely false and nonsense in our life but made to be true for bad guys in fiction.
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"We made a generic evil cult! Also, if you're a sexual minority, hope for a better future, are angry at how the system works, or just sort of sick/disabled in a general sense, you are mechanically compelled to join this cult by the dark gods, which are less 'people talking to you' and more 'the tide dragging you under'. You may resist your evil nature if you kneel before the God-Emperor and worship him, though."
- A completely generic cult with no unique elements anyone could take issue with whatsoever
 
Space Penguin said:
Pretty much correct. This is the springboard for every evil cult in fiction.

Which is why I say I'm confused. Nothing 40k cults do is something DND or darker fantasy rpg or setting cults won't do. The seeking to enthrall national leaders or leadership or wealthy in general and dabbling in sacrifices and demons. Describes the generic evil cult that has been used time and time again or hell can even be said to describe a generic evil conspiracy that has appeared over and over again which were absolutely false and nonsense in our life but made to be true for bad guys in fiction.
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IIRC, people have commented on how the dnd and call of cthulu cults are kinda problematic. This, however, is not a place for the general critique of the entire culture, but the specific critique of a specific part of that culture. 40k is also sorta unique in it's combination of prominence and glorification of the theo-fascist imperium. Having anti-Semitic inspired cults is one thing when there are no fascists or they are portrayed as bad guys, it is entirely another when they are portrayed as the best option.
 
Vindictus said:
"We made a generic evil cult! Also, if you're a sexual minority,
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So another person who believes that the Imperium hates gay people then?

hope for a better future, are angry at how the system works, or just sort of sick/disabled in a general sense, you are mechanically compelled to join this cult by the dark gods, which are less 'people talking to you' and more 'the tide dragging you under'. You may resist your evil nature if you kneel before the God-Emperor and worship him, though."
- A completely generic cult with no unique elements anyone could take issue with whatsoever
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Most cults from all fiction use honey to lure you in and then you become theirs and you don't care anymore. So yeah, generic.
 
comradepitrovsky said:
Slaanesh is literally about how being trans or intersex is a sign of demonic corruption.
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Blame the eldar. They created slaanesh. Again, from what we see in-universe. Nobody cares. if you simply can't accept that and seek to insert your own interpretations into it. Then continue to do so. But we don't have much left to discuss then.

Vindictus said:
Yes, yes, I know- The Imperium totally accepts LGBT unconditionally, and Slaanesh being... Slaanesh is just completely coincidental.

We've had this exchange about a million times before in this thread, and have gotten exceedingly efficient at it.
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Blame the eldar. They created slaanesh. Again, from what we see in-universe. Nobody cares. if you simply can't accept that and seek to insert your own interpretations into it. Then continue to do so. But we don't have much left to discuss then.

By, your guys logic, Eldar hate gay people too. Just saying. Anyway, you guys can have the last word.
 
Space Penguin said:
Blame the eldar. They created slaanesh. .
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I'm sorry, you seem to be operating under the impression that the Eldar really exist somewhere and that 40k is a time traveling documentary.

Anyhoo, to continue your line of thinking: "Blame the people who created the Eldar" (To short circuit this mystical quest that I've just sent you on: that would be actual alive IRL Humans. Most if not all of them once, if not currently, work(ed) for the dread cult known as "Games Workshop")
 
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Space Penguin said:
Blame the eldar. They created slaanesh. Again, from what we see in-universe. Nobody cares. if you simply can't accept that and seek to insert your own interpretations into it. Then continue to do so. But we don't have much left to discuss then.
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Why on earth would I blame the Eldar? They aren't real. They didn't write the story. They are not, in fact, responsible for the themes and mechanics of the setting.
 
DonBosco said:
Note that they must be distinguished from the dinosaur riding Amish Eldar.
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yeah. You're correct. Those guys are amish. Craftworld eldar aren't amish but neither are they monks.

AKuz said:
I'm sorry, you seem to be operating under the impression that the Eldar really exist somewhere and that 40k is a time traveling documentary.

Anyhoo, to continue your line of thinking: "Blame the people who created the Eldar" (To short circuit this mystical quest that I've just sent you on: that would be actual alive IRL Humans. Most if not all of them once, if not currently, work(ed) for the dread cult known as "Games Workshop")
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*sigh*

Its clear that there is not much left for me to say here. Anyway, bye and have fun guys.
 
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