Sympathy for the heretic

[Simon_Jester]

There are even hints of this in canon already- the prototypical Slaaneshi villain who isn't primarily queer-coded is generally aristocratic-coded, and one of the go-to examples for "this is what a Slaaneshi cult within the Imperium looks like" is "decadent society of nobles."

And the Dark Eldar, who are our biggest cue for what Eldar civilization looked like before it collapsed, are definitely "exploitative, hierarchical, and Social Darwinist."

 

[Aranfan]

In a lot of ways that's the elitist satanic pedophile cult run from a pizza place tho. And the conflation of the likes of Epstein with the Queers is very much part of what makes Slaanesh such a problem.

 

[Simon_Jester]

In a lot of ways that's the elitist satanic pedophile cult run from a pizza place tho.

Click to shrink...

Arguably. On the other hand, the archetype of "aristocrat who abuses their position to do horrible sex-death things to unfree or questionably free peasants/serfs/slaves" is very, very old in human culture, and far predates the modern neo-fascist right, and for that matter fascism itself.

And the conflation of the likes of Epstein with the Queers is very much part of what makes Slaanesh such a problem.

Click to shrink...

Maybe. But then, it's not like (sexually) predatory elites aren't a problem in and of themselves. The point of the exercise here is to try and reduce the extent of the queer-coding in Slaanesh, while amping up the theme of "vampire murderer, torturer of innocents one's power grants easy access to, obsessive over grandiose projects that come at far too high a price," all of which is totally within Slaanesh's canonical wheelhouse even if the evil characters in question are as sexually straight as a railroad on its own company map.

Lucius the Eternal is still a terrifying homicidal madman even if he's not queer-coded, in other words.

 

[Mark Jermaburger]

The obvious way to write Slaaneshi baddies in a less vaguely right-wing flavored way is to emphasize that they're selfish exploiters; they're not queer people, they're rapists and evil rich people (two categories with a large overlap).

By extension, the obvious way to do the Eldar giving birth to Slaanesh thing in a less vaguely right-wing flavored way is to make the old Eldar Empire a hierarchical society where a privileged class lived in immense luxury made possible by the exploitation of the lower classes, and suggest that Slaanesh reflects the exploitative, hierarchical, Social Darwinist nature of the society that created it (implying that a version born from a more benignly hedonistic social order like fully automated gay luxury space communism might have been more benign).

Click to shrink...

And as for Slaanesh cults in the Imperium could also use Drug cartels, sex trafficking rings, and old European aristocrats* as examples of a Slaanesh cult, showing that Slaanesh is more abt selfishness rather than simple hedonism.

*Since most imperial nobles are pretty much that times 10, I'm surprised that side of Slaanesh isn't shown more often.
EDIT: ninjaed

Lucius the Eternal is still a terrifying homicidal madman even if he's not queer-coded, in other words.

Click to shrink...

You could also show the more solipsistic fae side of Slaaneshi cultists, because the idea of getting mowed down by a mass-murdering superhuman living in what is for all intents and purposes, street fighter IRL is pretty freaky.

 

[Balmung1]

Arguably. On the other hand, the archetype of "aristocrat who abuses their position to do horrible sex-death things to unfree or questionably free peasants/serfs/slaves" is very, very old in human culture, and far predates the modern neo-fascist right, and for that matter fascism itself.


Maybe. But then, it's not like (sexually) predatory elites aren't a problem in and of themselves. The point of the exercise here is to try and reduce the extent of the queer-coding in Slaanesh, while amping up the theme of "vampire murderer, torturer of innocents one's power grants easy access to, obsessive over grandiose projects that come at far too high a price," all of which is totally within Slaanesh's canonical wheelhouse even if the evil characters in question are as sexually straight as a railroad on its own company map.

Lucius the Eternal is still a terrifying homicidal madman even if he's not queer-coded, in other words.

Click to shrink...

This kindd of reminds me of Roboutian Heeresy since sue ti the Blood Agels being a slaaneshi legion instead of the emperor's legion it makes the slaanesh part more vampire style with one of the big themes being self delusion instead of decadence.If you want to go into the the rvil Fae style territory maybe something like RH Laphis Would be good?

Laphis, the Poisoned Paradise
Few archives remain of the Macragge system before it was engulfed in the Ruinstorm, and most of these accounts focus on the homeworld of the Thirteenth Primarch, with Laphis being little more than a footnote. According to that scarce lore, Laphis was a paradise world, a pristine garden where the nobility of the Five Hundred Worlds could retreat from the weight of their responsibilities. After being subsumed into the Ruinstorm, however, the planet fell under the influence of Slaanesh, and was remade in the Dark Prince's image. Keepers of Secrets and other Daemon Lords of Slaanesh corrupted its population and built great palaces, dividing the planet into their own personal fiefdoms where they could revel in their favorite debaucheries along with their courts of sycophants, both mortal and immortal. Countless generations of selective breeding and Warp-wrought mutations have rendered the whole population inhumanely beautiful, save for the occasional deformed by-blow of inbreeding, who are either promptly sacrificed or shunned and banished to the underground.
The palaces of Laphis are separated by sprawling, beautiful fields of flesh-devouring flowers and forests of whose trees' iridescent, gleaming leaves can capture the soul of any who gaze at them for too long. Great beasts roam in the fields, leviathans whose flesh is intoxicating, leaving their would-be hunters at the mercy of their youngs, while in the woods, fey-like Neverborn play cruel games with lost wanderers, drawing them deeper and deeper into the forest with glimpses of unearthly beauty and sweet whispers. The trial of Laphis is simple : to come onto the planet, and leave it alive. But from the moment a Champion of Chaos sets foot onto the daemon world's surface, his heart and soul come under attack in a myriad ways, many far more subtle than any physical peril.
While the lords of Laphis are plenty dangerous in battle, the true threat they pose to those who would reach Macragge is more insidious. Every Chaos Lord who comes to the daemon world to pass their trial is welcomed with praise and parades, showered with praises. They are invited to lavish feasts ostensibly thrown in their honor, everyone around them telling them that they don't need to pass any trial, so obvious is their worth and so favored are they in the eyes of the Youngest God. But even if they don't need to fight or kill, surely they can enjoy the pleasures of Laphis before continuing onto their journey ? After all, they have fought so long to earn their place, they surely deserve to enjoy their rightful reward for such dedication to Slaanesh. And soon enough, once the Chaos Lord is suitably drunk on forbidden pleasures, they descend upon him to sate their own appetites, and the bleached bones of another failure are added to the artistic frescoes.

Click to shrink...

I ean LAphis is leaps and bounds better than most deamon worlds or imperial worlds for that matter with most of the population having plenty of free time creating art and eating stupid ulrtrasmurf tourists.In addition those who want ti survive Laphis have to do the most unusual thing aslaanesh worshipper can do-have self control....... or in the case of one Cato Sicarius ,have an ego so large that you can eat the keeper of secrets in charge of the planet and destroy it's essence due to his absolutely massive ego

 

[The Laurent]

Honestly half the Chaos Gods could probably be fitted into an archetype of Futurism/Fascism, except that's not really sympathetic and then it just makes it Fascist vs. Fascist.

But it would make them more interesting, tbh.

MANIFESTO OF FUTURISM

1. We want to sing the love of danger, the habit of energy and rashness.
2. The essential elements of our poetry will be courage, audacity and revolt.
3. Literature has up to now magnified pensive immobility, ecstasy and slumber. We want to exalt movements of aggression, feverish sleeplessness, the double march, the perilous leap, the slap and the blow with the fist.
4. We declare that the splendor of the world has been enriched by a new beauty: the beauty of speed. A racing automobile with its bonnet adorned with great tubes like serpents with explosive breath ... a roaring motor car which seems to run on machine-gun fire, is more beautiful than the Victory of Samothrace.
5. We want to sing the man at the wheel, the ideal axis of which crosses the earth, itself hurled along its orbit.
6. The poet must spend himself with warmth, glamour and prodigality to increase the enthusiastic fervor of the primordial elements.
7. Beauty exists only in struggle. There is no masterpiece that has not an aggressive character. Poetry must be a violent assault on the forces of the unknown, to force them to bow before man.
8. We are on the extreme promontory of the centuries! What is the use of looking behind at the moment when we must open the mysterious shutters of the impossible? Time and Space died yesterday. We are already living in the absolute, since we have already created eternal, omnipresent speed.
9. We want to glorify war — the only cure for the world — militarism, patriotism, the destructive gesture of the anarchists, the beautiful ideas which kill, and contempt for woman.
10. We want to demolish museums and libraries, fight morality, feminism and all opportunist and utilitarian cowardice.
11. We will sing of the great crowds agitated by work, pleasure and revolt; the multi-colored and polyphonic surf of revolutions in modern capitals: the nocturnal vibration of the arsenals and the workshops beneath their violent electric moons: the gluttonous railway stations devouring smoking serpents; factories suspended from the clouds by the thread of their smoke; bridges with the leap of gymnasts flung across the diabolic cutlery of sunny rivers: adventurous steamers sniffing the horizon; great-breasted locomotives, puffing on the rails like enormous steel horses with long tubes for bridle, and the gliding flight of aeroplanes whose propeller sounds like the flapping of a flag and the applause of enthusiastic crowds.

Like, this is Slaneesh, Khorne, and Tzeentch sewed up in something more interesting than decadence, "Vague change" and "Hates guns because likes swords."

Tzeentch being about people who want to burn the past alive for speed speed speed speed speed and a Black Crusade basically being all the forces of Chaos teaming up to get One Complete Fascism to match and stand equal against the One Complete Fascism of the Imperium would... definitely be a thing.

Not sympathetic, but just thinking.

Not sure how to get Nurgle into it, though.

 

[Mark Jermaburger]

@The Laurent if you go by @Memphet'ran version of Nurgle as the God of Disgust, Nurglites would join the black crusade to eliminate the weak filthy chaff that runs the Imperium or smth like that

 

[The Laurent]

Actually, to be honest, either for a more interesting or more sympathetic portrayal of them, I think Black Crusades/Great Black Crusades have to be more than just, "Oh, they all agree to work together and then armies spring out to attack."

First, the interesting but unsympathetic version I outlined. The reason why it's dangerous that these "elements" form One Complete Fascism is that they're dynamic, they're the challenges, they're the "underdogs" that can promise that they're going to do things different. The Imperium is a Fascist State where Hitler has been on ice and, God forgive me this reference, it's sorta a TNO situation where the Empire is crumbling, things are decaying... or you can compare it to the world of "nazi victories" that portray how shambolic Germany would be. The Imperium is Fascism in its dying states, and cannot promise Speed and Progress because it's wedded to the glories of 5000 years ago and can't promise technology either.

Yet it can and does teach Fascist impulses as a matter of course, greatly empowering Chaos.

And so when all of these elements are able to gel together into a new formation of Complete Fascism, what happens isn't just an offensive out of the Eye of Terror.

No, what happens is entire systems, hundreds or thousands of planets or more, start popping off like a bunch of shattering light-bulbs and falling to Chaos. Not because they're not Imperial enough, but because they're *too* Imperial and too many of its citizens have learned all of the lessons that the Emperor, fascist fuck that he is, had taught them even before his words got warped and Telephoned.

In such a galaxy, the Imperium is not only its worst enemy, but everyone's worst enemy, unable to come up with a coherent long-term ideological response to Chaos because they're just the other side of the coin... and so incapable that every generation or two they nearly fall to pieces because people decide they want a better Fascism rather than a better galaxy.

******

The sympathetic version of the Black Crusades, on the other hand, should look a lot like the Great Black Summers in For The Tyrants Fear Your Might. Liberatory if brutal revolts supported, perhaps, by Chaos forces and special forces in the same way that you might ship arms or weapons to rebels you agree with.

 

[Mark Jermaburger]

@The Laurent So your Black crusades are kinda like the Bolshevik revolution against the tsars? Promising some sort of prosperity and plenty for the masses, when really They're just gonna replace one breed of tyranny for another?

 

[The Laurent]

@The Laurent So your Black crusades are kinda like the Bolshevik revolution against the tsars? Promising some sort of prosperity and plenty for the masses, when really They're just gonna replace one breed of tyranny for another?

Click to shrink...

...as a communist I think this is absolutely a terrible comparison. Like, really terrible.

The first one is literally just... people promising to do it Right.

Like, imagine Nazi Germany that somehow won. It'd decay into a corrupt, broken state before falling to pieces sooner or later.

Chaos in the first version appeals to the people trained to love Fascism but aware that this particular Imperial Fascism sucks shit. But because the whole culture is Pro-Fascism, what convinces them is not, "Hey, why not stop being dipshits" but, "A newer, shinier, better version of fascism."

The Bolsheviks did not promise, "Oh, we'll have a better Tsar, and better Monarchy." Indeed, if they had they wouldn't have gotten anywhere because by 1917 everyone hated the Tsars.

But the Imperium is a more-brainwashed, more broken society even than Tsarist Russia, which is admittedly saying a LOT.

*****

And because the Imperium relies on the acceptance of fascism and proto-fascism to survive, they can NEVER truly defeat the internal threat of Chaos because doing so would also destroy the material base for the continued existence of the Imperium as it is set up. And when having to choose between, "Every few generations having to fight for your existence" and "What if we destroy the basis of our rule because a lot of it is just openly feeding Chaos" they obviously choose the former every single time.

 

[Mark Jermaburger]

@The Laurent Just tryna get a real crude analogy here.
Also what the hell was that thing you posted earlier?! Is that an actual ideology?

 

[The Laurent]

In such a galaxy, the heroes would not be chaos or the Imperium, both of whom as a whole--whatever sympathetic individuals they have--are most of what's wrong with the galaxy. But rather those "heretics" that are trying to do something different without simply embracing Chaos's "Fascism Done Right" claims.

@The Laurent Just tryna get a real crude analogy here.
Also what the hell was that thing you posted earlier?! Is that an actual ideology?

Click to shrink...

Yes, that's the Futurist Manifesto. It never took off and was the work of a bunch of very problematic Italian artists, but some of its themes and ideals inspired Mussolini's Fascism, though many of them condemned him because, y'know, he was a practical politician and some of them just didn't like him.

As an ideology, it never took off, but there are a number of alt-history works where it does to some extent take off in some different form, and it is generally considered one of the forms of European Proto-Fascism.

 

[Mark Jermaburger]

In such a galaxy, the heroes would not be chaos or the Imperium, both of whom as a whole--whatever sympathetic individuals they have--are most of what's wrong with the galaxy. But rather those "heretics" that are trying to do something different without simply embracing Chaos's "Fascism Done Right" claims.



Yes, that's the Futurist Manifesto. It never took off and was the work of a bunch of very problematic Italian artists, but some of its themes and ideals inspired Mussolini's Fascism, though many of them condemned him because, y'know, he was a practical politician and some of them just didn't like him.

As an ideology, it never took off, but there are a number of alt-history works where it does to some extent take off in some different form, and it is generally considered one of the forms of European Proto-Fascism.

Click to shrink...

I think there's a quest on this site starring these reasonable 'Heretics' you speak of. Also I never knew somebody tried to LARP as the Mechanicum IRL b4 the Mechanicum ever existed, and you're saying this came from Italy? Man do Europeans come up with the weirdest shit...

 

[The Laurent]

I think there's a quest on this site starring these reasonable 'Heretics' you speak of. Also I never knew somebody tried to LARP as the Mechanicum IRL b4 the Mechanicum ever existed, and you're saying this came from Italy? Man do Europeans come up with the weirdest shit...

Click to shrink...

Yeah, Futurism was an artistic movement. It was generally counter-cultural, but included both Left-wing and Right-wing elements. In Russia at least Futurism ultimately wound up supporting anti-Tsarism and so on. In Italy and France, though, Futurism was as you saw DEEPLY misogynistic and obsessed with violence, and it was a bunch of very weird artists trying to make a point about how we should abandon the past for Speed, Violence, and Masculinity. Hence why it's considered one of the Proto-Fascisms. But Fascism in the German and Italian sense tended (the German more than the Italian, but both were equally so) to embrace the past as a bygone Age of Glory, imagining some different millienium or time when things were better.

And so something like Futurism being the insurgent challenger to the Imperium's "Hitler is 80 and on cryo-sleep, the German economy has stagnated from lack of conquest, and each of Hitler's lieutenants has spun off a different competing sub-faction that only is technically part of the Nazi State and would rather all the rest not exist, and literally none of Fascism's promises have come true" makes sense.

Rather than a promise of, "Hey, what if we do liberal democracy or anarchism, or communist democracy or LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE" it is a promise of, "Everything the Imperium told you you could get by brutality and violence and etc etc... you can 'actually' get with Chaos."

 

[Mark Jermaburger]

Yeah, Futurism was an artistic movement. It was generally counter-cultural, but included both Left-wing and Right-wing elements. In Russia at least Futurism ultimately wound up supporting anti-Tsarism and so on. In Italy and France, though, Futurism was as you saw DEEPLY misogynistic and obsessed with violence, and it was a bunch of very weird artists trying to make a point about how we should abandon the past for Speed, Violence, and Masculinity. Hence why it's considered one of the Proto-Fascisms. But Fascism in the German and Italian sense tended (the German more than the Italian, but both were equally so) to embrace the past as a bygone Age of Glory, imagining some different millienium or time when things were better.

And so something like Futurism being the insurgent challenger to the Imperium's "Hitler is 80 and on cryo-sleep, the German economy has stagnated from lack of conquest, and each of Hitler's lieutenants has spun off a different competing sub-faction that only is technically part of the Nazi State and would rather all the rest not exist, and literally none of Fascism's promises have come true" makes sense.

Rather than a promise of, "Hey, what if we do liberal democracy or anarchism, or communist democracy or LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE" it is a promise of, "Everything the Imperium told you you could get by brutality and violence and etc etc... you can 'actually' get with Chaos."

Click to shrink...

Huh...Now that I think abt it, wasn't one of the main reasons for Abaddon's Long War was that he wants to rule the Imperium and have everyone follow the 'true gods' instead of the High Lords of Terra and their false God-Emperor?
Also if I'm reading this right, futurism was a movement that started in Italy, that also rejected pasta? No wonder it failed!

 

[Parth]

Honestly, if you wanted to use Slaaneesh as the bad guy, you need to throw out all the kinky bondage shit, stop singling out Slannesh alone as not having one specific gender, and take heavy inspiration from interwar Futurism.

The bizarre imagery of the movement was far more interesting than just 'hurr hurr, evil sex demons' and that fact that the movement was sexist as hell avoids letting chuds get off on imagining them as LGBT people.

Click to shrink...

You do realize that GW has already done that right?

The problematic bits of Slaanesh are not present in the most recent edition of 40K.

 

[Hakazin]

Actually, to be honest, either for a more interesting or more sympathetic portrayal of them, I think Black Crusades/Great Black Crusades have to be more than just, "Oh, they all agree to work together and then armies spring out to attack."

First, the interesting but unsympathetic version I outlined. The reason why it's dangerous that these "elements" form One Complete Fascism is that they're dynamic, they're the challenges, they're the "underdogs" that can promise that they're going to do things different. The Imperium is a Fascist State where Hitler has been on ice and, God forgive me this reference, it's sorta a TNO situation where the Empire is crumbling, things are decaying... or you can compare it to the world of "nazi victories" that portray how shambolic Germany would be. The Imperium is Fascism in its dying states, and cannot promise Speed and Progress because it's wedded to the glories of 5000 years ago and can't promise technology either.

Yet it can and does teach Fascist impulses as a matter of course, greatly empowering Chaos.

And so when all of these elements are able to gel together into a new formation of Complete Fascism, what happens isn't just an offensive out of the Eye of Terror.

No, what happens is entire systems, hundreds or thousands of planets or more, start popping off like a bunch of shattering light-bulbs and falling to Chaos. Not because they're not Imperial enough, but because they're *too* Imperial and too many of its citizens have learned all of the lessons that the Emperor, fascist fuck that he is, had taught them even before his words got warped and Telephoned.

In such a galaxy, the Imperium is not only its worst enemy, but everyone's worst enemy, unable to come up with a coherent long-term ideological response to Chaos because they're just the other side of the coin... and so incapable that every generation or two they nearly fall to pieces because people decide they want a better Fascism rather than a better galaxy.

******

The sympathetic version of the Black Crusades, on the other hand, should look a lot like the Great Black Summers in For The Tyrants Fear Your Might. Liberatory if brutal revolts supported, perhaps, by Chaos forces and special forces in the same way that you might ship arms or weapons to rebels you agree with.

Click to shrink...

You know, that does line up very well with one of the ideas I don't see explored often enough in 40K: Chaos cults emerging out of Imperial dogma and maintaining much of the same basic imagery and symbolism. The idea of, say, a given church emphasizing the role/image of the Emperor as a perfected ideal of mankind while steadily growing more and more Slaanesh-adjacent as they try to live up to that impossible ideal is deeply compelling. I think I actually heard of a recent story portraying an Imperial Guard regiment forced into increasingly impossible battles that comes to rely more and more on their faith in "The Holy Emperor on his Throne of Brass" in order to survive as well.

 

[Mark Jermaburger]

You know, that does line up very well with one of the ideas I don't see explored often enough in 40K: Chaos cults emerging out of Imperial dogma and maintaining much of the same basic imagery and symbolism. The idea of, say, a given church emphasizing the role/image of the Emperor as a perfected ideal of mankind while steadily growing more and more Slaanesh-adjacent as they try to live up to that impossible ideal is deeply compelling. I think I actually heard of a recent story portraying an Imperial Guard regiment forced into increasingly impossible battles that comes to rely more and more on their faith in "The Holy Emperor on his Throne of Brass" in order to survive as well.

Click to shrink...

Basically a grammatically correct term for 'Heretic'?
Also, as an example of how a khornate cult can use Imperial dogma to subvert it, Imma just post this:

First, nobody tells you that it's a Chaos cult. It's not like you join today and tomorrow they have you sacrificing people to Tzeentch. Nobody says "hey, come join my evil cult!" It doesn't work that way.

Generally what will happen is that you are invited to join some sort of club or organization. On the surface, it looks fine. Maybe you're a cop or a soldier, and you get invited to be part of a "men's club" where you go drinking after work. It's the hardcore guys, the ones who seem to really be into their jobs. They do jiu-jitsu in their spare time, spend a lot of time at the gun range, work out a few hours every day, and probably take some steroids too. There's definitely a bit of over-the-top aggression, but hey it's an aggressive job.

One day you get partnered up with Vic and Tony, and when some rioter throws a brick at your face, Vic cracks the guy's skull open with a lead pipe. Then he hits the guy a couple more times. "You gotta do what you gotta do, man." Hey, Vic just saved your life. He's right, these people are animals. You should hang out with the crew a little more after work. "We need eight people for the group," they say. They don't mention why.

After a few months, you're shaving your head like the other guys. You've put on 25 lbs of muscle and are pretty heavy into martial arts and combat training now. The gang has started training with axes because they think it looks badass. You start wearing t-shirts with skulls emblazoned on them underneath your uniforms and body armor like you're part of a top-secret squad. Police brutality is generally approved in the Imperium, but you guys have decided to take it to a new level. Crime starts to drop in your neighborhood, and officers from other precincts ask how you guys managed to do it. Vic travels around, showing the other precincts how to set up their own "skull squads" and hand-picking officers who would best do the job.

You don't tell anybody about the unofficial raids you guys conduct a few times a week, where your 8 man skull squad goes out and ambushes some gang members in alleyways. You chop them up with axes and then dump the body parts in the industrial waste pipe. These guys are industrial waste anyway, real scumbags who got what they had coming to them (and the truth is, a lot of them really really are).

This has been going on for a while when Vic suggests you start adding some things to your look. You each get a cool 8-pointed star tattoo on your biceps. It looks pretty badass like it's made out of barbed wire and spikes or something. You're still attending the required church services every morning before your shift, but you kinda agree with Vic that the Emperor is really more of a war god. "The Emperor protects" should really be "The Emperor demands blood". That's a lot more kickass. You start picturing the Emperor with giant wings and a big bloody axe.

So a few years go by. The neighborhoods where the skull squad teams have been introduced have seen lower rates of crime, but disappearances are way up. At first, it was among real scum (rapists, murderers, etc), but now it's just higher in general. Some guy with three overdue parking tickets disappeared a few days ago, and no one has seen him since. Vic and Tony and the other guys are talking about how maybe you don't need to be cops anymore. Why are you still showing up to work? All those regulations and written reports just get in the way of justice.

Man, have you looked at Vic lately? You could swear that his eyes were glowing red last night. Like literally glowing red. You guys had a ritual facial scarring ceremony this weekend, to show your dedication to the cause. No turning back now. Some of the guys are filing their teeth into points, but you haven't done that yet. You are a little worried because last night some gangbanger shot you in the shoulder, but it didn't go that deep and you can swear it bounced off of something... something like metal under your skin. You're happy you're not dead and everything, but in the back of your mind you kinda know that's not normal biology.

Then one day you hear that the Hive City has been attacked by some sort of pirate force. They're apparently causing a lot of carnage and killing people. The police force called you up to find out where you've been, they need to deploy you to guard the industrial sector from attack. You and the other guys are sitting there in the dark, sharpening your axes. As you look around you count seven pairs of glowing red eyes, and in the gleam of your blade, you can see the reflection of your own. You've been in contact with the other skull squads from the other precincts. You'd love to get in on this fight, the only question is... on which side?

Click to shrink...

 

[Parth]

Basically a grammatically correct term for 'Heretic'?
Also, as an example of how a khornate cult can use Imperial dogma to subvert it, Imma just post this:

Click to shrink...

I think it was the book fire warrior, that had devout imperial guardsmen begin shouting the phrase. "Blood for the god emperor."

I think it was also in a Cain novel that mentioned one of the signs of a chaos cult among guardsmen was informal brotherhoods, or ignoring their ranged weapons in order to get into close combat.

So it's a thing it does happen.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Not sympathetic, but just thinking.

Not sure how to get Nurgle into it, though.

Click to shrink...

Nurgle eats the leftovers.

Basically a grammatically correct term for 'Heretic'?
Also, as an example of how a khornate cult can use Imperial dogma to subvert it, Imma just post this:

Click to shrink...

So... basically normal policing, then?

Like, we in the United States unironically have special secret clubs among real police organizations that actually do have skull iconography and shit. This is already happening I guess?

To be fair, this is by US standards; there are countries where the police can sometimes go whole years without murdering anybody, as I understand it... But, yeah, basically all of this sounds familiar up until the overtly supernatural stuff like the bulletproofing and glowing eyes happens.

 

[Ralson]

So... basically normal policing, then?

Like, we in the United States unironically have special secret clubs among real police organizations that actually do have skull iconography and shit. This is already happening I guess?

To be fair, this is by US standards; there are countries where the police can sometimes go whole years without murdering anybody, as I understand it... But, yeah, basically all of this sounds familiar up until the overtly supernatural stuff like the bulletproofing and glowing eyes happens.

Click to shrink...

Also kinda the problem with that approach to chaos cults.

Like... you're out there murdering suspected criminals, as any normal Imperial cops would, while adorning yourself in skulls, as all normal Imperials do, and putting on tons of lean muscle exactly like lots of Imperials do, venerate the Emperor as a gigantic armored warlord who slaughters entire worlds, as is right and proper... and suddenly you're just arbitrarily in Chaos. Sheesh!

 

[Avernus]

Not sympathetic, but just thinking.

Not sure how to get Nurgle into it, though.

Click to shrink...

Shift him into being the God of Cancerous Evolution, instead? You could keep his basic aesthetic, but emphasize how his followers are changed from being dull, unchanging creatures into a walking mass of wildly variant, constantly competing forms of life. Rot and pestilence aren't death after all; they're one form of life overtaking and consuming another. Go in for "Social/Biological Darwinism" rhetoric and behavior based on cancerous, undirected growth and feverish competition and you could wedge Nurgle into that kind of ideology I think. You can even keep Nurgle and Tzeentch's rivalry, since instead of stagnation/decay versus change you'd have "plans within plans" versus "randomly try everything at once and see what sticks".

 

[woweed]

Bruh you do realize that labeling something "satire" isn't a magic spell that instantly counters all criticism right? Satire requires both clarity of purpose and target (otherwise it's pretty much identical to the thing it's meant to be lampooning) and the skill needed to pull the joke off. And even then, you're probably still going to trip up because people are dumb and 9/10 will just accept the thing as is instead of seeing the criticism it's trying to convey.

And like, what is the Imperium meant to be satirizing at this point? If you present a totalitarian fascist theocratic regime and situate it in a world where totalitarian fascist theocracy is a reasonable idea...what's the joke?

Click to shrink...

To be fair, I would argue the idea that a world where Fascism makes sense is a cosmic horror story is a commentary of sorts…plus, even in their world, the Imperium are a creaking decaying amalgam of all history's worst regimes, barely sustaining itself on pure inertia.

 

[Parth]

To be fair, I would argue the idea that a world where Fascism makes sense is a cosmic horror story is a commentary of sorts…plus, even in their world, the Imperium are a creaking decaying amalgam of all history's worst regimes, barely sustaining itself on pure inertia.

Click to shrink...

If you're interested here's GW's official statement on what it's a satire of.

The Imperium of Man stands as a cautionary tale of what could happen should the very worst of Humanity's lust for power and extreme, unyielding xenophobia set in.

Click to shrink...

 

[woweed]

If you're interested here's GW's official statement on what it's a satire of.

Click to shrink...

Ah. Indeed. So…What's the issue here?