Ah, I forgot it was 1908 not 1918 tech wise. Will probably need to write up a new plan then, one better reflective of the actual war (though probably with the same general idea). I can't really do that now, because I just switched to my phone, but for now I'll just unvote my plan.
 
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Hmm, think your plan emphasizes too much 'tank as vehicle' rather than 'tank as weapon of war'.

Think the two things to emphasize are:
1.
Tanks should be logistically supportable. We don't really have any good 'breakthrough' tanks right now, because none of them can drive far enough for an actual breakthrough + encirclement. Because we can't build a 'good enough' tank, we are making sooooo many models of them and putting them into service. So some sort of large scale armored offensive would result in like, 5 different models of tanks being in the battle, and the majority of losses being from the tanks breaking down.
So what we ideally want is:
One model of tank that is 'good enough' to do the jobs we want the tank to do, is reliable enough to get to the fight, and is cheap enough to build lots of. So we should emphasize these features in future tank development; avoid all those expensive attempts at perfection and aim for good enough, cheap enough.

2.
We don't have a really good idea of how to best use tanks, so our tank choices tend to be 'whatever seemed to be really cool at the time'. We need to come up with some paper war games and get all the officer/war colleges/ whoever to play them and see what strategic shape we will want the tank to have, so we know what kind of tanks we want to build and develop. This should also show us a bunch of other important things.
Examples:
What sort of vehicles would we need to support tanks in the field? (motorized or mech infantry, mobile artillery, motorized logistics train, etc) if we finally get a tank that can go for 24 hours (or whatever) without breaking down, it's no good if we can't fuel them because the fuel truck can't go 24 hours without breaking down.
What sort of stuff are we going to need to defeat the other guys tank forces? If we develop armored breakthrough->mass encirclement->destruction doctrine, what do we do when the other side tires it on us?

[edit]
If I had my druthers, I'd be trying to develop the Universal Carrier, no a tank. Because, if I can get it cheap enough, and reliable enough, I can mount a cavalry regiment on them, and they can carry all the HMGs, 37mm guns, and 81mm mortars they want. And that force can move ridiculously far and fast because their horses don't get tired

This keeps the cavalry branch (those noble so-and-sos) happy, lets me develop tactics and strategy for mech warfare, the logistics for mech warfare, and is something I can probably actually build.
 
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If I had my druthers, I'd be trying to develop the Universal Carrier, no a tank. Because, if I can get it cheap enough, and reliable enough, I can mount a cavalry regiment on them, and they can carry all the HMGs, 37mm guns, and 81mm mortars they want. And that force can move ridiculously far and fast because their horses don't get tired

This keeps the cavalry branch (those noble so-and-sos) happy, lets me develop tactics and strategy for mech warfare, the logistics for mech warfare, and is something I can probably actually build.

Except as I just pointed out, you didn't fight a cavalry war, you fought a largely trench and fortification based war. A bunch of dudes in universal carriers would be great mechanized infantry, but mechanized infantry tends to fail miserably at slamming their face into a four hundred yard deep stretch of fallback points, blockhouses, landmines, and pre-registered artillery fires- especially mechanized infantry that, as per your current tech, will get their face eaten by anything heavier than an enemy Balzac Portative or God help you an organized and distributed series of AT rifle foxholes.

I mean, if you actually look at the MrW-5 you'll note its an early halftrack, a pretty good starting ground for your proposal. It is also, until now, been riddled with issues that make it of dubious use outside towing artillery.
 
Hmm, my counter arguments, based on 'us' being The Central powers in WW1.

The war in the west could have been won (or at least put us in a much better position) if our armies had been able to move faster and act with more coordination, because we could have taken Paris. Pretty much any 'new' war is not going to start with the trenches pre-dug. So there will be an initial maneuver/rush phase where getting somewhere quickly with (some/enough) firepower is going to be a big deal. Right now, we can't make a tank that can do the strategic mobility thing, because of stuff like low engine power, bad transmission designs, and just low tech. But we could (probably) do a half track/ full track carrier that could do that.

The war in the east was much more maneuver focused, since there simply weren't enough troops available (on either side) to actually make a fully fortified line. So our theoretical high speed (mech) cavalry could have been very useful there too. If we won the war in the east faster, that would have freed up a lot of (conventional) infantry to go west much earlier.

Fully emplaced trench lines are a bitch to break through, since the other side will have dug several trench lines behind the initial line. So our theoretical breakthrough of a trench line would have to be wide enough and deep enough to force a return to a battle of maneuver. That's something like 30 km wide and 20-40 km deep. So our theoretical breakthrough tanks would need to be able go something like 75 km under fire. Plus we'd need the logistics to be able to follow them over that same ~75km.

The problem is, getting all that ready for the next war is going to be a real bitch. We'd need the tanks, the logistics, the doctrine, etc to actually accomplish that. We could have all that if the next war is 20 or 25 years away; but we can't schedule our wars so neatly.

The objection I pretty much have is that current (doctrine-less) tank development is just making our army better at trading blood with the other guys army. But even if we get pretty good at that, any war like WWI again is still going to kill, like 10% of the men of military age and wreck the economy. Admittedly, that would mean that the other side has lost 20% of the men of military age and their economy is even more in the crapper, but that's not really the kind of 'victory' that I want to look forward to.

If we concentrate on tanks now, we'll lose most of our cavalry guys (they
will muster out, and there'll be much less money for cavalry in the future), who are the people we have who have institutional knowledge of the kind of maneuver warfare we want tanks to actually be able to do. So, if we stay on this path, by the time we get the tank to do that, we'll have mostly forgotten how to do that.

---------------------

The other, very important stuff that hasn't come up are things like 'how do tanks communicate with each other?' 'how do tanks and infantry coordinate their movements?'. For example, assuming that tanks are going to be coordinated with flags, none of the tank designs seem to have addressed the ability of the tank commander to actually look out of the tank and see those flags.

Too much of tank as singular war machine, not tank as useful part of the army.

----------------

So, things I'd sorta like to be in the white paper:
The current tank procurement specs are more like 'carry this armor, and this gun' but should probably be more like:
bring me the coolest thing you can build that will to cross 30 km of trenches and then 45 km of more gentle terrain that doesn't cost more than X. Whatever it is, it should have provisions for signal flags, careful thought about the ability of the tank commander to see the signal flags of other tanks, and maybe some brackets on the back to hold a big pocking wrench, so friendly infantry can grab the wrench and bang out some Morse code on the back of the tank. A whole lot of bonus points will be added to your submission if you can also show a version of your chassis set up as an infantry/artillery/other stuff carrier that can move X kg over the same 75 km.

And we know that we want all those fiddly things because we've had a lot of thought experiments on what a tank actually is. The quest players already know what tank is, but I want the Skoda team to stop wasting their talents because they now know what tank is too.
 
Looking back, I'll add concerns for visibility and communications to my proposal. And

What I'm trying to push for is tanks that can break through and then actually make something out of it. Speed, reliability, and enough support assets that can keep up. Enough numbers that they can have a local presence and react on a tactical scale rather than one strategic formation that is slower to line up. In a static fortified scenario, if our armor can force the enemy to concentrate more of their forces to respond, then we can dictate the terms of an engagement.

Currently anti-tank rifles are sufficient, and if they're not dismounted guns seem to be capable. Don't hold your breath here.

Armored vehicles are becoming common enough that they're going to regularly start bumping into each other. We need to be prepared for that scenario. Even in the armor testing we just saw, AT rifles weren't fully effective on heavier armored vehicles and they had to move to higher caliber weapons.
 
Looking back, I'll add concerns for visibility and communications to my proposal. And

What I'm trying to push for is tanks that can break through and then actually make something out of it. Speed, reliability, and enough support assets that can keep up. Enough numbers that they can have a local presence and react on a tactical scale rather than one strategic formation that is slower to line up. In a static fortified scenario, if our armor can force the enemy to concentrate more of their forces to respond, then we can dictate the terms of an engagement.



Armored vehicles are becoming common enough that they're going to regularly start bumping into each other. We need to be prepared for that scenario. Even in the armor testing we just saw, AT rifles weren't fully effective on heavier armored vehicles and they had to move to higher caliber weapons.
You don't want breakthrough tanks, not in 1908, the technology just isn't there.
What you want is a T-34 or a Sherman.

Cheap, reliable, good enough.
At the moment none of the tanks in service can fill even one of these checks. Expensive breakthrough tanks can come later. Right now, we need something that works.

When technology starts advancing, then we can start thinking about a Panther or a Centurion expy.

EDIT: The Wanderer tanks were probably the best tank we could have started off with, they are cheap, kind of reliable and they do the job. Checked every box.

Everyone is going for the shinies in the massive tanks rather than something sensible.
 
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You don't want breakthrough tanks, not in 1908, the technology just isn't there.
What you want is a T-34 or a Sherman.

Cheap, reliable, good enough.
At the moment none of the tanks in service can fill even one of these checks. Expensive breakthrough tanks can come later. Right now, we need something that works.

When technology starts advancing, then we can start thinking about a Panther or a Centurion expy.

EDIT: The Wanderer tanks were probably the best tank we could have started off with, they are cheap, kind of reliable and they do the job. Checked every box.

Everyone is going for the shinies in the massive tanks rather than something sensible.

What I want is more like a T-26 with a radio and maybe a bit more armor. With a Universal Carrier to follow it. But the apparent reality is that we need to force a breakthrough to make a real impact in the current paradigm.

@7734 outside of another great power war, what more limited potential conflicts are on the Irromic Empire's borders? The Carragians love their big armored cars, but do we have other neighbors we may end up fighting 1v1?
 
You don't want breakthrough tanks, not in 1908, the technology just isn't there.
What you want is a T-34 or a Sherman.

We know we want a T-34, alas, none of the companies building the tanks know they should be building a T-34. That's why one of the things I want is proper tank/motor/mech development doctrine. So when we finally get around to asking for a T-34, we'll hopefully get to choose from T-34, M-4, Pv IV, Valentine instead of Landship Mk XXV, T-35, Grant, and Vickers Medium Mk III.

I don't think the tech is there for an actual medium tank that can actually go anywhere. So I'd prefer something like Vickers 6 ton Mk. B -> T26 -> T26 (1933) -> Pz III -> T-34.
So what we really want is a more reliable W-5 with a 2 or 3 man turret, a commanders cupola, and more mechanical reliability. I think that's mostly what we can deliver with the tech we have.

The PzII chassis was used for all sorts of things, even though the PzII stopped being useful as a tank pretty quickly (but it was still fine in France in 1940...), so I think a reliable (light) chassis is the best we can really hope for our tech base to deliver.

------------

Another thing to think about is an 'tank bible' that we collect all the good ideas from and then give out to the people doing tank development.
Examples:
Boat-tank turned out to be a pretty good idea, if we wanted a boat-tank later.
That thing about escape hatches for the underwater testing is probably pretty important, since the next danger to tank is fire and escape hatches are handy there too.
Anything anyone learns about keeping tanks from catching on fire. They should probably get a prize or a medal or a knighthood or something.
The statistics on what kind of tanks break down and how long they take to fix, so the designers will know what sort of stuff to concentrate on improving first.
Any 'neat' ways the crew come up with for fixing tanks. Or anything the developers come up with for same.
A list of obstacles we'll require all combat vehicles to clear, so if we can get a tank across it, we can get an APC/mobile artillery piece/mobile kitchen sink across too.

--------------

[edit]

If you want a breakthrough vehicle at this TL, I think an artillery mover that can tow a 15cm howitzer is the best bet. That's around 3000-4000 kg. Form them up on regimental (or division) scale and breakthrough that way, then send in the light tanks to exploit it. The Guards Heavy Artillery Division is going to be a much better line breaking formation than some medium tank wanna-bes that can't go 20 km without breaking down.
 
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Provisional plan for discussion:

[ ] The New Cavalry
-[ ] Current armor trends are GOOD
--[ ] New suspensions and similar advances create a completely new means of exploiting weaknesses in enemy positions.
--[ ] Armor levels are becoming sufficient to defeat company-level infantry forces with platoon-level armored formations.
--[ ] Greater presence on the battlefield through larger numbers allows armored support on a tactical, not just strategic, scale.
-[ ] Future armor trends are
--[ ] Going to see the rise of more mobile support assets to follow an armored breakthrough.
--[ ] Going to drive towards mobility and mechanical reliability as a means of getting greater utility out of tanks and tank units.
--[ ] Going to see the rise of tank-hunting vehicles to react to enemy armor.

What do you guys think?

I like most of this, although I agree that tank-hunting vehicles are currently out of our paradigm.

I'd also add that in the future, tanks may mount armor capable of defeating all man-portable AT weapons and possibly even small-caliber cannon (considering that the Ub\kw-1 and Armid both stood up surprisingly well to infantry weapons).

Considering what we've learned about cost and etc, I think the future may also hold many smaller tanks operating in a group (see the W-series) rather than individual land battleships (as cool as they are, they're expensive to build and expensive to run).
 
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@7734 another question, how have the tanks currently in service performed? Are the W-series tanks successful?
 
What I want is more like a T-26 with a radio and maybe a bit more armor. With a Universal Carrier to follow it. But the apparent reality is that we need to force a breakthrough to make a real impact in the current paradigm.

@7734 outside of another great power war, what more limited potential conflicts are on the Irromic Empire's borders? The Carragians love their big armored cars, but do we have other neighbors we may end up fighting 1v1?

Aside from some bush war in Afrika or a colonial conflict in the East Spice Islands, there's not much to fight right now. To be fair, you don't have much to fight it with- your standing army went from two hundred regiments to sixty regiments, and the reserves are much thinner on the ground. Your proto-special forces units (the Seebats and G.Jagers) are both massively under strength right now, to the point where 3.SeebatDiv and 4.SeebatDiv are effectively black divisions, and both are pushing for colonial NCOs to be able to go to the War College for instruction. A lot of the drive for big, heavy armored battalions backed by light tank battalions is actually based around preservation of manpower; because High Command wants to absolutely sanitize an advance route before they move the infantry up to dig in.

Hmm, my counter arguments, based on 'us' being The Central powers in WW1.

The war in the west could have been won (or at least put us in a much better position) if our armies had been able to move faster and act with more coordination, because we could have taken Paris. Pretty much any 'new' war is not going to start with the trenches pre-dug. So there will be an initial maneuver/rush phase where getting somewhere quickly with (some/enough) firepower is going to be a big deal. Right now, we can't make a tank that can do the strategic mobility thing, because of stuff like low engine power, bad transmission designs, and just low tech. But we could (probably) do a half track/ full track carrier that could do that.





OK.

The other, very important stuff that hasn't come up are things like 'how do tanks communicate with each other?' 'how do tanks and infantry coordinate their movements?'. For example, assuming that tanks are going to be coordinated with flags, none of the tank designs seem to have addressed the ability of the tank commander to actually look out of the tank and see those flags.

Too much of tank as singular war machine, not tank as useful part of the army.

To note, the GK-3 and later all carry radios, as well as literally everything Skoda's ever built carries a midrange Morse set and a shortrange voice set, plus the SkW-2 carrying a longrange (like some destroyers have smaller radio sets) morse set too. Thing is, though, y'all ain't asked about them or made them part of an RFQ or testing line item, so they haven't come up yet. Some other manufacturers are considering at least putting a company level radio reciever in some tanks (Wanderer, Ghermain Bros) but that's a solid five-thaler cost that they're trying to dodge. When you're already making bank of being CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP like Wanderer or just don't have that much money to dump into the project, that sort of expense isn't worth it until it's what sells the tank.

Considering what we've learned about cost and etc, I think the future may also hold many smaller tanks operating in a group (see the W-series) rather than individual land battleships (as cool as they are, they're expensive to build and expensive to run).

I mean, yeah. One Skoda SkW-1, when it was first proposed to you guys, cost about as much as one of these boyos (which Skoda also makes because they make battleships and battleship accessories)


(Humerously, the tank has a bigger gun)

Since then, prices have gone down now that the SkW-1 actually has a dedicated assembly line and the Landwere just put in a four hundred tank buy, but they're still stupidly expensive bastards to make and maintain. Considering they only made something like... four hours on nearly two hundred liters of diesel. Plus side, though, you're reasonably sure a 5,5cm gun can't actually kill one from the bow, just blast the tracks off.
 
If you want a breakthrough vehicle at this TL, I think an artillery mover that can tow a 15cm howitzer is the best bet. That's around 3000-4000 kg. Form them up on regimental (or division) scale and breakthrough that way, then send in the light tanks to exploit it. The Guards Heavy Artillery Division is going to be a much better line breaking formation than some medium tank wanna-bes that can't go 20 km without breaking down.

This.
Contrary to propaganda, the WW2 German army was 99% infantry. At the start of the war SOME of the frontline infantry was motorised. (Had trucks).
The first mechanised regiments were not fielded until 41. The early, spectacular breakthroughs were chiefly conducted by infantry marching on foot 40km a day (with an armored spearhead).
Strongpoints were smashed by infantry guns and mortars, not the 2000 armored vehicles of all types the Germans had in a 1.3 million man army.
However, this is a vehicle quest, so we should be looking at a downsized SiG, not a MBT.
Just enough armor on a frontal only gunshield to stop small arms, 76 or similar gun, overbuilt to be extremely reliable, not the current bleeding edge in every vehicle.
 
Ah, I forgot it was 1908 not 1918 tech wise. Will probably need to write up a new plan then, one better reflective of the actual war (though probably with the same general idea). I can't really do that now, because I just switched to my phone, but for now I'll just unvote my plan.
Tech advancement isn't exactly 1:1, and you're all honestly closer to 1918 than 1908, and a little past it in places.

Contrary to propaganda, the WW2 German army was 99% infantry. At the start of the war SOME of the frontline infantry was motorised. (Had trucks).
Honestly, the operational experiences and circumstances of a death cult comprised of fifteen year old speedfreaks with 'the dream is dead' written on the side of their helmets isn't exactly germane to the situation the Werser or Irmione militaries are going to be in, since they're not going to be subject to a crash rearmament program run by people who couldn't pull off shit like proper assembly lines.

They'll never be as wealthy or technically sophisticated as the Kubachi military, but you also probably can't bribe Irmione Ordinance officers with a buffet.
 
And here's an example of the kind of things that I think should be showing up in the ''Armor Bible":

Contest 1: Current Entrants:
Aside from that, it's boat-ish hull seemed very likely to deflect fire [...]

Armor bible comment: if manufacturing a required thickness of armor plate turns out to be difficult, engineering the shape of the tank in a more dedicated manner may lead to the tank being 'armored enough' with a sloped, but thinner plate.

[...] the hulls would be cast nearly whole by Thryssen [...]

Armor bible comment: Did the fact that the hull was cast (as opposed to, I'd assume riveted construction of everything else) make that big a difference in the surviability test? Did it make the shot up tank any easier or harder to fix? What are the cost, etc trade offs of casting hulls?

Contest 1: Testing Phase:
[...] crews were drawn from the mechanically literate conscripts, and salvage crews were trained by the Werser Technical Delegation [...]

Armor bible comment: since tank crews are going to require special training, the various armor companies should probably try to standardize things like 'dashboard layout' of their tanks, so tank crew training will be as transferrable as possible.

AV-4 [...] four incidents where the crew asphyxiated and/or were disabled due to heatstroke, ten detracking incidents, four clutch failures, one throttle failure, and one failure in the fuel lines that doused the inside of the tank in gasoline [...]

GK-1 [...] Of the stoppages, seven were related to heatstroke, six were detracking incidents, four clutch failures, one throttle failure, one cracked support wheel tied to detracking incident #2, and rather memorably (and unfortunately) [...]

W-1 [...] prototype's stopages were almost universally detracking accidents, with sixteen incidents, one case of heatstroke, and three engine malfunctions that were fixed with some well-applied spanner smacks. The preproduction model only had twelve detracking incidents, four engine incidents, three cases of heatstroke, and one memorable case where the rear sprocket wheel came off entirely [...]

Armor bible comment: List of what breakdowns occurred most often, what actually delayed the tanks the most, and so on, so people know which problems to look at first. In most cases it looks like policing up all the broken tracks and getting a brief writeup of all causes of detracking is indicated. Do track bits fail more often in certain ways (that could be improved)? Does how 'well' the tank is driven often contribute to detracking? What set of (standardized) tools should a tank carry for it's own maintenance?
(how tanks are driven does have a lot to do with how often they get detracked. Standardized driver training and stuff would help a lot here)

[...] When presented with a standard field trench of one by two meters [...]

Armor bible comment: here's a list of standard field obstacles that your tank should be able to traverse.

[...]one incident where the tank detonated an unexploded 208mm mortar shell and lost most of the right track, killing three of the crew. [...]

Armor bible comment: 'large' mines look like a potential way to get rid of tanks. We should probably have someone look into making and testing some...

[...] After spending the first two rounds trying to consistently find the dang things [...]

Armor bible comment: low visibility of tanks is apparently a possible way to defend against fire. What contributes most to tank visibility, and can effectively reduce the visibility of any of our larger tanks? (Leads to things like height control in tanks, and hull down tactics)
 
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Author Comments

Armor bible comment: since tank crews are going to require special training, the various armor companies should probably try to standardize things like 'dashboard layout' of their tanks, so tank crew training will be as transferrable as possible.


Armor bible comment: Did the fact that the hull was cast (as opposed to, I'd assume riveted construction of everything else) make that big a difference in the surviability test? Did it make the shot up tank any easier or harder to fix? What are the cost, etc trade offs of casting hulls?

DO YER FOOKIN REASERCHES KIDDIE

: low visibility of tanks is apparently a possible way to defend against fire. What contributes most to tank visibility, and can effectively reduce the visibility of any of our larger tanks?



Armor bible comment: here's a list of standard field obstacles that your tank should be able to traverse.

 

I, uh, have no idea how to interpret that.

[edit]
But here's the outline of how I think the standard tank obstacle should get developed. We'd need a tank officer (to know what kinds of things tanks run into) and an engineering officer (to know how to build them cheaply, so we can test tanks on them).

Flat ground:
Mud
Shell holes
rubble
include fallen trees, low walls, tree stumps, etc

Slopes (both up and down)
Mud
sand/scree/gravel

(small) Trenches and streams

(larger) trenches and rivers

Ideally, has a list of escalating obstacles, so we'll have some idea of what we can do now, vs what we want to aim for later.

We'll also hopefully find out what sort of 'extra stuff' a tank could carry around to enhance it's ability of ability to get unstuck (i.e. why you see tanks with logs strapped to the side).

Bonus points:
when we run the tests, have an engineer handy so we'll know what kind of stuff stops tanks best, so the engineer can write a manual on building tank traps for out engineers or infantry.


-----------------------------

Added to endurance runs
Rope in several officer cadets (or similarly low ranked but literate people (rem: most testing seems to be done with drooling conscripts)). Have a truck full of tools, log, gravel, or anything else that a tank might find handy following them.

When the tank breaks down:
description of the breakdown/circumstances of getting stuck
have crew describe what led to breakdown
(IRL, many tank detrackings are simply human error on the drivers part, and this is in the US Army. With most of our test crews not really being trained, I'd say something like 50% of our detrackings are simply driver error. This should point very strongly towards needing actual crew training)
What tools were used to fix the breakdown?
Were any of the extra things from the truck (tools, logs, whatever) also used.
(this should start to tell us what tools and stuff are needed to carry on the tank, what needs to go on a recovery vehicle, and so on)
Collect and broken bits for later inspection (what part failed, how did it fail, etc) (we want to improve things like track design, so seeing how our current tracks break, with plenty of writeups and borken samples will help),

Bonus points:
replace officer cadet with trained mechanic, who'll keep track of the specifics of how the tank got fixed. Both for later standardized training, and to ID any useful repair tricks or bits of design excellence.
 
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I, uh, have no idea how to interpret that.

Well, aside from "do your own reaserch" being a clear cut instruction to start hitting up the Discord links and shaking down KanColle threads for sauce, I will confirm that a unitary cast is stronger than rolled plate, and that thickness isn't normally the deciding factor unless it's a difference of centimeters- and even then, it might not be the failure point you need to look at. The nice thing about this quest is I don't have to write any prose- literally every word is important. Take this passage

Next was a domestic design, happily enough. The GK-1 was designed and built by Reinhardt Industries, located in the northern empire near the Wesser border. Where the (I)AV-4 was very lozenge-y, the GK-1 planned on handling trenches mostly by sheer stubbornness, having a long track base and a very rear-heavy design so half the vehicle could overhang the trench, wherin the front tracks would then pull it up. Aside from that, it's boat-ish hull seemed very likely to deflect fire, with a composite 16mm plate in the front and 8mm plates everywhere except the engine compartment, weighed down by the same plates as the bow. Reinhardt says its capable of crossing an infantry trench without issue, but the representative didn't have data on what trenches it crossed. Arms-wise, it had a short-barrel 75mm bow gun, as well as three Mg.58 machine guns in hull mounts. For propulsion, it uses a large three-cylinder hot bulb engine by Ursus, equipped with an automatic bulb-warmer to allow the engines to be in a sealed compartment. With three 200-litre tanks carrying heavy bunker oil, the designers claimed the vertible landship could run for ten hours, and idle for an indefinite time if the tanks were refilled with the engine running. One prototype with boilerplate armor was provided, as well as one preproduction model for testing.

I give out information on the tank, the type of weapons, hull shaping, propulsion, armor quality, fuel type, and even operational run time. That's a lot of data- and you guys can ask for more, too!
 
Time to update the whitepaper draft!

[X] The New Cavalry v2
-[X] Current armor trends are GOOD because..
--[X] New suspensions and similar advances create a completely new means of exploiting weaknesses in enemy positions.
--[X] Increasingly heavy armor is forcing the enemy to mass firepower to defeat even small units, and giving friendly forces far greater survivability.
--[X] Greater presence on the battlefield through larger numbers allows armored support on a tactical, not just strategic, scale. Organic integration and attachment to infantry units allows opportunities to be acted upon before a window may close.
-[X] Future armor trends are..
--[X] Going to emphasize reliability, mobility, and survivability. Current armaments are able to defeat infantry and many fortifications, making the tank able to get to the fight and stay in it will see them run roughshod over the enemy.
--[X] Going to see increased visibility and communications abilities, for reconnaissance in force and coordination with supporting forces. Incorporation of radio sets has been an increasingly common feature, for example.
--[X] Going to see improved gunnery sights, to allow armor to more readily engage the enemy and give them less opportunity to return fire.

I think this one is worth my [X].
 
Now, write an actual paper containing these proposals; Namedrop manufacturers, tanks, officers, battles and shit.
Like, "SkW-1 manufactored by Skoda is one of the most advanced tanks out there, capable of two-way radio communication at all times, providing unparalleled control for unit commander; In coming years such capability would be welcomed if not outright required in most armored wagons."
 
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Now, write an actual paper containing these proposals; Namedrop manufacturers, tanks, officers, battles and shit.
Like, "SkW-1 manufactored by Skoda is one of the most advanced tanks out there, capable of two-way radio communication at all times, providing unparalleled control for unit commander; In coming years such capability would be welcomed if not outright required in most armored wagons."

I mean if someone wrote an actual 1000 word plus white paper for a vote then I'll fucking take it and everyone else can go home.

Edit: like, threadmark and everything, thank you for free update.
 
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So, some thoughts which I had shared on discord, but not really a finished plan yet.

Our tanks just aren't up to the task of breakouts. They aren't mobile or reliable enough, can't deal with the fortifications they might encounter well enough, and aren't resistant enough to the infantry weapons they might face. However, our heavier artillery has really great range. Far beyond anyone else's. And it has enough accuracy to use it, at least in the context of massed fire, and it can destroy pretty much anything we will encounter that isn't behind thick earthworks. Also, we have tank radios early.

A solution suggests itself.

Armored warfare is what ended trench warfare on our timeline, but it isn't the only way it could have played out. Our tanks may not be up to the task alone, but pair them with the ability to make better use of our artillery and maybe the situation changes a bit. Equip tanks with radios, coincidence rangefinders and the like, and we can use every tank as an artillery spotting position that is resistant to being shot at and can go where it is needed. Breakouts become much more practical if our tanks can just call home and have anything that is giving them trouble flattened with indirect fire. Even if there's enough dirt in the way to protect it, it isn't going to be doing much about the tanks while it is getting shelled

I had an elaborate scheme in mind for a WWI audio-based GPS equivalent to help the tanks figure out the right coordinates to flatten, but on reflection it's probably not a practical addition. It would have been based off of actual technology that was used to locate artillery for counterbattery fire, but required a degree of coordination that doesn't seem practical, and there are easier ways. Coincidence rangefinders and known landmarks should also do the job.

Anyway, main point: If we let all of our tanks also be artillery spotters and give them the equipment to do it well, our approach to breakthroughs can start to use our artillery's range and power to deal with anything our tanks can see and don't want to try and take out themselves. This will probably be plenty useful in other situations too, like more routine counterbattery fire. This kind of capability, combined with at least some of the mobility and reliability improvements we want to see, will enable breakouts and vastly improve our ability to attack positions of any kind. This will force a transition to the kind of more mobile warfare we'd rather see.
 
Here, how's this look:

Motor as horse replacement
The main use of the motor is to move things around. Thus, motor vehicles can replace horses in many movement and logistics roles. Motors don't get tired, motor vehicles get built in factories, so they don't have to be bread and trained. They can be stockpiled, or built in great numbers on demand. In addition, motor vehicles don't have to be trained for war.

Technically, the technology is available to make tanks that would be largely immune a large variety of weapons, and could traverse the battle field, slaying all before them. And as soon as the Navy gives all of it's budget to the Army for us to build the land battle fleet, we'll get right on that. Barring massive budget changes, we don't have the ability to cheaply make those vehicles, our economy is still a mess.

(Game objectives: pretty much what really wins wars at this TL is trucks and radios. We don't want to waste too much money on tanks that we are short on either of them. What we want this part of the paper to do is to get the other branches of the army requesting their own budgets for trucks (and radios, covered in part 2)

Motors for cavalry
So, we should concentrate on building machines that we can currently make well and cheaply. This is a collection of 'light' motor vehicles that can act as essentially bullet proof horses. This would allow our cavalry divisions to remain relevant in the modern battlefield of machine guns and shrapnel. The ability to quickly go where the enemy doesn't want you to be, and destroy soft targets (logistics elements, artillery, etc) is the role for offensive armor right now.

Just as everyone in the cavalry gets a horse, everyone in this new, motorized cavalry should be mounted on some sort of vehicle. After all, it's the slowest member that determines the speed to advance. And just like a cavalry force, tanks are best used when massed together, for maximum shock value. The much greater resilience of motor-cavalry units would also allow then to screen the advance or retreat of regular infantry,

The key traits of such motor-cavalry vehicles are reliability and economy. Equipping whole formations with motor vehicles will be expensive, just as obtaining all those horses trained for war is expensive. But as discussed above, being able to afford enough vehicles to have the necessary shock value is of critical importance. Just as a cavalry troop that fails a charge can quickly be killed by infantry, a motor cavalry charge can suffer the same fate.

Just like every cavalry man must be first trained how to ride and care for a horse, every motor-cavalry man must first be trained how to operate and repair a motor vehicle.

(Game objectives:
Get the cavalry branch invested in vehicles as the replacement for horses. We want them agitating for budgets and developing doctrine. Plus the cover for a tank school. This should also, hopefully, result in massed armor formations, which we really need with a lighter tank focus

This should also greatly narrow down the type of tanks we are trying to develop, so we have better choices from a limited type of tank, rather than hit and miss choices from a wide variety of tanks. I'm pretty much willing to give up completely on heavy tanks. Focus on building good or even excellent light tanks, and moving on to mediums once the tech gets there.

Development outline:
Vickers 6 ton mk B (W-5?) -> T26 (improved W-5) -> T26 (1933) (Improved W-5 with better gun) -> Pz III (Final development of W-5 with radio in every tank and all the ergonomics figured out) -> T34 (with closer to M-4 ergonomics; it's on now, bitches)
2nd development outline? Universal carrier -> M3 half track -> BTR-152? -> M113))

Motors for infantry
Entrenched infantry units typically shoot at each other with much larger guns that they can easily move. Our 3.5 cm filed guns are easily manageable by men on foot. But our 5.5 cm guns, much less so. It's the same story with artillery. 7.5 cm guns can be easily moved by horses, but the 10cm and 15 cm guns you really want to blast a trench line with are very difficult to move. So even if an infantry unit is able to mount a successful attack, their heavy guns can't follow the.
However, motorized vehicles offer the ability to easily move heavy guns. A infantry unit on the attack could be supported by highly mobile 5.5 cm field guns and 10cm artillery, meaning that a infantry division on the offensive can still use it's heavy firepower.
An infantry assault heavily supported by large mobile guns could blast a hole into a line of trenches sufficiently wide and deep for the motor cavalry to rush through the hole and encircle enemy formations and destroy logistics elements, allowing the enemy to be easily over-run and captured. A (large) separate formation of mobile heavy guns could be moved from point to point to assist in any attempted infantry breakthroughs.
In addition, the ability to motorized vehicles to cross harsh terrain without getting tired means that a motorized logistics element could keep up with an infantry unit on the attack, meaning that the mobile heavy guns have a ready supply of shells to fire at the enemy.

(Game objectives: the army is going to be 95% of something infantry, so making our infantry units have teeth is really the most important thing. Going from 7.5 cm artillery to ~10cm artillery pretty much doubles a divisions fire power, and ~10cm guns are kinda difficult to move with horses, especially quickly.

Development outline:
3.5cm portee -> Marder II (our 5.5 cm gun on W-5 chassis?) -> Su-76M -> SU-122?

Tractors for 10 cm guns -> tractors for 15 cm guns

81mm mortar on universal carrier -> 120-140 mm mortar on heavier chassis

Wespe (10cm gun on W-5 chassis?) -> ??? mobile 12 cm or 15 cm gun
On the gripping hand, staying standardized on ~10cm guns allows horses to still move the guns for second line regiments while keeping everyone using the same ammo.

Doctrine development: we wants our Guards Heavy Artillery Division, Precious)

Radio, the second Revolution
The radio is causing a revolution in military affairs. An advancing for is no longer limited by having to trail phone lines behind it. Unprecedented coordination of movement, artillery fire, logistics requirements, intelligence reports, and more are all created by the availability of radio. Current radios are still pretty heavy, thankfully we now also have motor vehicles capable of easily carrying them.
This means that forward reconnaissance could directly request artillery fire. Artillery fire no longer needs to be pre-planned, it can happen on a moments notice, as directed by radio.
Recon elements can report the presence of absence of the enemy, and our forces many miles away can quickly move to react to these reports.
Command staff and monitor radio reports from units at the front, and build a near complete picture of what is currently happening. Any orders sent back to these units can be based on this understanding, and the orders units can receive their orders instantly and react quickly.
To put it shortly, it's almost impossible to understate the ability of radio to revolutionize military affairs.

(Game objectives: you get a radio, and you get a radio, and you get a radio. We want artillery with radios and tanks with radios and forward observers with radios and ...
A tank without a gun, but with a radio is probably more dangerous and effective than a tank with a gun, but without a radio. Moar radios, please. And the doctrine and training to use them.)

TL DR version:
emphasis on: Reliability, doctrine, and economics
Light tanks and universal carriers for cavalry
Assault guns and motorized/SP heavy artillery for infantry
Radios for everyone

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[edit]
additional stuff:
Write a letter to Karl Adler, asking if he can provide a brief writeup of how the impact angle changes the effective thickness of an armor plate. And ask for sample penetration/angle table reference. Add this to the Armor Bible in case any of the tank engineering teams aren't already aware of it.
Change any future RFQs away from 'armor must be XXmm thick' to 'armor must resist penetration from XX gun at XX distance' so the design teams are hopefully willing to experiment with armor sloping.

(I don't think sloping really matters for the light armor we are currently using, but it should make any heavier tanks we have to try to build cheaper, as the thicker armor is much more expensive to source)

Write a letter Adrian Handel (from Contest 2: Testing First (and only)), asking if anyone is making devices that automate his math trick, or any other range finding devices. The Navy, artillery command, or even civillian surveyors probably have something. See if you can get any of your former artillery buddies to tell you things about how cheap/effective etc these things are (or if they are not using them already, see if they can get a testing program going out of thier budget. Include anything that comes of this in the armor bible, and ask the tank design teams to include a rangefinding device or method in their prototypes.

(for testing: how much do these things cost? how effective are they? how robust are they to being driven around attached to a tank?)
 
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(I don't think sloping really matters for the light armor we are currently using, but it should make any heavier tanks we have to try to build cheaper, as the thicker armor is much more expensive to source)
Quite to the contrary, sloped armour is always an improvement. (Barring HESH.)
A 15mm plate at 60~ Degrees can stand up as 20-25mm worth of armour, which should be more than enough to deflect most handheld AT Rifles of this time.

It's more a little difficult to manufacture and design because it limits the space inside the tank, but it's cheaper in material weight and more effective as armour.
 
I mean, yeah. One Skoda SkW-1, when it was first proposed to you guys, cost about as much as one of these boyos (which Skoda also makes because they make battleships and battleship accessories)

One of the things I'm tempted to do is introduce the tank-boat guys to the Skoda team, and see if they could work up a cheap AAV sorta thing the SeaBattalions would be interested in.

The AAV is, like 30 feet long, and probably doesn't have to worry much about regular rail transport, so a 30 foot long (lightly) armored launch with treads at the bottom might be right up Skoda's alley.

And best of all, it would come out of the Navy's budget, since it would be a boat that goes on land, rather than an amphibious tank. :D
 
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Anyway, main point: If we let all of our tanks also be artillery spotters and give them the equipment to do it well, our approach to breakthroughs can start to use our artillery's range and power to deal with anything our tanks can see and don't want to try and take out themselves. This will probably be plenty useful in other situations too, like more routine counterbattery fire. This kind of capability, combined with at least some of the mobility and reliability improvements we want to see, will enable breakouts and vastly improve our ability to attack positions of any kind. This will force a transition to the kind of more mobile warfare we'd rather see.

Skoda got you covered. The SkW-2 has all the features you're looking for, plus Sufficient Gun for the job. Catch is, she's not gonna go blitzing over hill and dale willy nilly. She's kinda slow, because of that 12,7cm gun.

Here, how's this look:

Absolutely riddled with issues, matey.

So, we should concentrate on building machines that we can currently make well and cheaply. This is a collection of 'light' motor vehicles that can act as essentially bullet proof horses. This would allow our cavalry divisions to remain relevant in the modern battlefield of machine guns and shrapnel. The ability to quickly go where the enemy doesn't want you to be, and destroy soft targets (logistics elements, artillery, etc) is the role for offensive armor right now.

Just as everyone in the cavalry gets a horse, everyone in this new, motorized cavalry should be mounted on some sort of vehicle. After all, it's the slowest member that determines the speed to advance. And just like a cavalry force, tanks are best used when massed together, for maximum shock value. The much greater resilience of motor-cavalry units would also allow then to screen the advance or retreat of regular infantry,

The key traits of such motor-cavalry vehicles are reliability and economy. Equipping whole formations with motor vehicles will be expensive, just as obtaining all those horses trained for war is expensive. But as discussed above, being able to afford enough vehicles to have the necessary shock value is of critical importance. Just as a cavalry troop that fails a charge can quickly be killed by infantry, a motor cavalry charge can suffer the same fate.

Just like every cavalry man must be first trained how to ride and care for a horse, every motor-cavalry man must first be trained how to operate and repair a motor vehicle.

For starters, this particular section can take it's nogistalgic tin lunchbox and beat itself over the head until senseless. I've said on multiple occasions the Irromic army neither has a large cavalry branch, nor was the war in any way favorable to cavalry. Excepting two battles which allowed for flanking maneuvers on the strategic level, the cavalry arm was just about useless during the war, because it was a war fought in rough terrain the entire time. The Irromic Empire didn't really get actively involved until the Balkhs were trying to push through the Irromic Range, the boarder demarcation between the Irromes and Wersers. At that point, it was an infantry war. When they were pushing to encircle the Balkh spearhead that was attempting to take the southern rail hubs and had to break tenpenny supply fortresses that kept the trains running, that was an infantry war. When they had to beat the Balkhs out of their boarder forts and reprimand the areas of the Wersers that went Vichy, that was an infantry war.

Point being, the cavalry aren't really a factor. You're thinking of divisional level issues, when there's at most five remaining cavalry regiments. If you were selling to the Wersers, who's cavalry arm is mostly transtitioning over to motorized infantry and armored cars, you'd still be rowing the failboat because shock in cavalry as a tactic has been dead for sixty years.

(Game objectives: the army is going to be 95% of something infantry, so making our infantry units have teeth is really the most important thing. Going from 7.5 cm artillery to ~10cm artillery pretty much doubles a divisions fire power, and ~10cm guns are kinda difficult to move with horses, especially quickly.

Development outline:
3.5cm portee -> Marder II (our 5.5 cm gun on W-5 chassis?) -> Su-76M -> SU-122?

Tractors for 10 cm guns -> tractors for 15 cm guns

81mm mortar on universal carrier -> 120-140 mm mortar on heavier chassis

Wespe (10cm gun on W-5 chassis?) -> ??? mobile 12 cm or 15 cm gun
On the gripping hand, staying standardized on ~10cm guns allows horses to still move the guns for second line regiments while keeping everyone using the same ammo.

This isn't how distribution of assets works, like, at all. For starters, you're trying to force divisions on a regimental system, which is rather like saying you're going to turn a Camry into a technical because you can get a Tacoma to do the same thing. They're not at all equivalent. Equally importantly, you're not understanding why certain guns are deployed at certain levels- weight. As it stands right now, the divisional organic artillery company is composed of three batteries of four 10,5/40 guns. These are not small guns. They're already motorized with prime movers and everything. You had a section of the quest to motorize them, even. They're not filtering down to the regimental level because they're unable to be moved, they're not filtering down because keeping a 10,5/40 gun adequately supplied, matinenced, and operational is outside the scope of a regiment. A regiment has enough trouble with it's 7,5/45 guns, which are plenty of firepower in most circumstances for their main mission of denying enemy artillery a clean shot at the squishies.

Also, you're presuming you have 15,5cm guns in the army right now. You don't. The biggest gun you have by bore is a 14cm siege mortar that was developed for cracking fortresses and has the fire rate of an anemic slug. If you mass-adopted the SkW-2, you'd be bringing 12,7/34 guns onto the field, but expecting that tank to form the backbone of an artillery corps is blindly optimistic.

(I don't think sloping really matters for the light armor we are currently using, but it should make any heavier tanks we have to try to build cheaper, as the thicker armor is much more expensive to source)



And best of all, it would come out of the Navy's budget, since it would be a boat that goes on land, rather than an amphibious tank. :D

This already comes out of the Navy's budget; they're Seebatalioners. They're basically how the Navy does diplomacy and colony security.
 
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