- Location
- Brazil
Hmph, that there's a price tag on perfection is more than generous of them.
Strategic Arms Quest 3/2: Armor Edition
- Thread starter 7734
- Start date
- Original
CthuluWasRight
Fresh Meat for the SV Grinder
- Location
- Canada
Depending on how well the SkW-2 does, perhaps the cost of equipping the smaller Seebattalione will be less ruinous than equipping the entire army, especially since peacetime will hopefully reduce the need for and attrition rate of what tanks we do build.
Tank Buying and Sausageworks.
7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
Not quite. What happens is the accountants look at how many of X you need (guns, bullets, tanks, conscripts, backpacks, etc) and figures the time until the next buy (Normally one to five years) and then takes into account the sum rate of expendature, alias ammount expected to get used up, ammount expected to break, ammount expected to expire in storage, et cetera. This gets you your rough buy size, and then usually a 10% margin of error thrown on top in case someone goofed, a war starts, or you need to porkbarrel (part of why the W-2 buy was so big, actually- Wanderer is the company in game with the most pork).
That gets you your buy. Now, the manufacturer doesn't have this all lying around; they need to make it. As they finish batches, the accountants pay per batch plus a yearly contract fee and any other sundries the lawyers agree to. Production usually falls off a cliff about six months to a year in when the line finally gets optomised, letting the manufacturer stretch out the contract and the government to spend less per batch period (normally a month) while maintaining the ability to place a later order and get the line efficiencies still. IRL, this lack of mass production line effiencies is why the F-35 is a thing and America didn't just go RAPTOR RAPTOR RAPTOR- it's cheaper to do the big batches that trickle in, than the small ones.
What makes this hilarious in game is a little bit of behind the scenes bookkeeping on who's sold what.
Armor Sales (by company)
AV-4: 60 (Werser Crowns) 20 (Kubachin Free State) 15 (Landwere Romani) 35 (Landwere Polska) 20 (Landwere Slovene) TOTAL: 150
KW-1: 45 (Werser Crowns) 5 (Kubachin Free State) 10 (Landwere Switzen) 25 (Landwere Dubania) 50 (KuK Hussars) TOTAL: 135 (Delivered: 60)
KW-2: 20 (Wereser Crowns) 45 (Carriginian Federation) TOTAL: 65 (Delivered: 10)
KTW-2: 60 (Irromic Empire) 10 (Kubachin Free State) TOTAL: 70
KTW-3: DEVELOPMENT/TESTING
KW-1: 45 (Werser Crowns) 5 (Kubachin Free State) 10 (Landwere Switzen) 25 (Landwere Dubania) 50 (KuK Hussars) TOTAL: 135 (Delivered: 60)
KW-2: 20 (Wereser Crowns) 45 (Carriginian Federation) TOTAL: 65 (Delivered: 10)
KTW-2: 60 (Irromic Empire) 10 (Kubachin Free State) TOTAL: 70
KTW-3: DEVELOPMENT/TESTING
GK-1: 40 (Landwere Czechna) 15 (Landwere Polska) TOTAL: 55
GK-2: 35 (Landwere Slovene) 10 (Kubachin Free State) 10 (Nyasaland ) TOTAL: 55
GK-3: 40 (Irromic Empire) 10 (Landwere Romani) TOTAL: 50
GK-4: DEVELOPMENT/TESTING
GK-2: 35 (Landwere Slovene) 10 (Kubachin Free State) 10 (Nyasaland ) TOTAL: 55
GK-3: 40 (Irromic Empire) 10 (Landwere Romani) TOTAL: 50
GK-4: DEVELOPMENT/TESTING
W-1: None Ordered (developmental numeric)
W-2: 100 (Irromic Empire) 85 (Werser Crowns) TOTAL: 185
W-3: None Ordered (developmental numeric)
W-4: 80 (Werser Crowns) 55 (Reichsmarine) TOTAL: 135
W-5: 120 (Irromic Empire) TOTAL: 120
W-6: 60 (Irromic Empire) 30 Landwere Switzen) 10 (Landwere Dubania) TOTAL: 100
W-7: 60 (Werser Crowns) 20 (Nyasaland) 10 (Volta) TOTAL: 90
W-8: 40 (Reichsmarine) TOTAL: 40
W-2: 100 (Irromic Empire) 85 (Werser Crowns) TOTAL: 185
W-3: None Ordered (developmental numeric)
W-4: 80 (Werser Crowns) 55 (Reichsmarine) TOTAL: 135
W-5: 120 (Irromic Empire) TOTAL: 120
W-6: 60 (Irromic Empire) 30 Landwere Switzen) 10 (Landwere Dubania) TOTAL: 100
W-7: 60 (Werser Crowns) 20 (Nyasaland) 10 (Volta) TOTAL: 90
W-8: 40 (Reichsmarine) TOTAL: 40
SkW-1: 10 (Kubachin Free State) 30 (Reichsmarine) 25 (KuK Kriegsmarine) 15 (KuK Hussars) 30 (Landwere Czecha) 12 (Landwere Zubain) 10 (Archemagarias) TOTAL: 122
That's a lot of sausage
Either way, I hope some trends are becoming apparent.Also, if someone can put all that in a table for threadmarking, you get one small free advancement in a developer of their choice.
- Location
- Somewhere
|
THRYSSEN
|
|
Totals/Delivered
|
REINHARDT
|
|
Totals
|
WANDERER
|
|
Totals
|
SKODA
|
|
Totals
|
|
AV-4
|
60(W.C)/20(K.F.S.)/15(Lw. Ro.)/35(Lw. Po.)/20(Lw. Sl.)
|
150
|
GK-1
|
40(Lw. Cz)/15(Lw. Po.)
|
55
|
W-1
|
N/A
|
SkW-1
|
10(K.F.S)/30(Rm.)/25(KuK Rm.)/15(KuK H.)/30(Lw. Cz.)/12(Lw. Zu.)/10(Ar.)
|
132
|
|
|
KW-1
|
45(W.C.)/5(K.F.S.)/10(Lw. Sw.)/25(Lw. Du)/50(KuK Hus.)
|
135/60
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GK-2
|
35(Lw. Sl.)/10(K.F.S.)/10(Ny.)
|
55
|
W-2
|
100(I.E.)/85(W.C.)
|
185
|
|
|
|
|
KW-2
|
20(W.C.)/45(C.F.)
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65/10
|
GK-3
|
40(I.E.)/10(Lw. Ro.)
|
50
|
W-3
|
N/A
|
|
|
||
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KTW-2
|
60(I.E.)/10(K.F.S.)
|
70
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GK-4
|
R&D
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W-4
|
80(W.C.)/55(Rm.)
|
135
|
|
|
||
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KTW-3
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R&D
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|
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W-5
|
120(I.E.)
|
120
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|
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|||
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|
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W-6
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60(I.E.)/30(Lw. Sw.)/10(Lw. Du.)
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100
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|
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|||
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|
|
|
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W-7
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60(W.C.)/20(Ny.)/10(Vo.)
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90
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|
|
|||
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|
|
|
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W-8
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40(Rm.)
|
40
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|
|
Last edited:
- Location
- Brazil
Wasn't Wanderer a no-one before we took him on the team and made the W-1/2 a thing?
He has some incredible numbers.
He has some incredible numbers.
- Location
- Somewhere
The fact that his tanks are much less landshippy probably helps a lot with the unit cost.
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Himmelhand
Giant Sinkhole 2020
- Location
- Midwestern US
@Michael Lewis it would be good to have the total sales for each tank listed separately so you don't have to add up all the pieces, and maybe bold the numbers for the Irromic Empire since those are actually our tanks, unless I'm mistaken.
Also, can I get some feedback on Schwimmpanzer for the ammo carrier plan I adapted from @FortTell? So far it's been mixed on whether that's a solution we want for the Np-1's drawbacks or not.
Also, can I get some feedback on Schwimmpanzer for the ammo carrier plan I adapted from @FortTell? So far it's been mixed on whether that's a solution we want for the Np-1's drawbacks or not.
- Location
- Somewhere
@7734: Two things:
- Didn't we order some SzW-1? I recall that one being rather well-received when we tested it the first time.
- One of us derped on some of those totals. I think you're off by ten on the SzW-1.
- Location
- Russia
- Pronouns
- He
The gain is that regular ammo carriers cannot traverse rivers unless you set up some sort of a ferry, capture a bridge or use boats. This is a specific vehicle for when you need your tanks to cross the river fast and be battleworthy for a longer period of time. 1/platoon may be too much, but some of those would come a long way towards easing the process of securing beachheads on rhe other side of the river.
Or driving in secret to smash an enemy train station or bridge.
On the subject of costs, they would not mount a gun, which means you can get away with less ventilation and thus, because of lesser energy requirements and lower or comparable weight, lessen fuel consumption. Also, guns cost more than MGs.
But if that is not to your liking, do you have other ideas about fixing the awkward ammo situation? Because it needs to be fixed, unless you want to drive around in a vehicle with ammo racks pretty much everywhere.
7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
My numbers are good. As for Skoda orders, it was recommended for purchase, but due to cost and the shape of the war none were purchased by the army. The Navy made their purchase to replace two old shore batteries, though.
It would never pass testing. The Seebatalions at this present moment don't see a huge issue with the 40 round ammo supply, since their one beech-mobile gun (A 3,5cm on a light carriage) only lands with 30 rounds and no ammo cart. Once the first wave is ashore, the second wave normally humps more ammo in for the light machine guns and artillery, then they start getting out the heavy MG sledges. There's been rumors of a newfangled automatic rifle they might be adopting too, to help make initial advancements stick.
Himmelhand
Giant Sinkhole 2020
- Location
- Midwestern US
Based on that information, I'll remove the support variant from the plan.
Looking at the sales numbers, I'm still confused about the political situation in setting. Are the KuK sales going to various branches of the Irromic armed forces? And are the Landwehrs basically the local forces of our vassals/satellites/marches?
Also, what do the tanks of our enemies look like?
Looking at the sales numbers, I'm still confused about the political situation in setting. Are the KuK sales going to various branches of the Irromic armed forces? And are the Landwehrs basically the local forces of our vassals/satellites/marches?
Also, what do the tanks of our enemies look like?
- Location
- Russia
- Pronouns
- He
Okay, fair, but the "couple of shells in every corner" situation risks literally blowing up once the Np-1 gets into combat, because it can be hit in the ammo racks from almost any angle.
Big Huge Table
Winged_One²
SACQ Tablemaster
- Location
- Germany
Somebody already posted a table, but I think it looks like shit and I have done all the tables until now, so here is mine (shortened names):
I hope this table works for every theme of SV, I know it won't work on phones.
EDIT: Short tables:
Wanderer is by far the most prevalent tank manufacturer, probably due to being way cheaper than anyone else.
The Irromic Empire (us) is the leader in terms of tank force by a considerable margin once you count in Marine units, Werser is not far behind, followed by the rest with a considerable margin (KuK Armed Forces probably have some tanks from other unlisted manufacturers, but I don't think they have several hundred of them.
| Manufacturer | Vehicle | Werser | Kubachin | Romani | Polska | Slovene | Switzen | Dubania | Czechna | Zubain | Kuk Hussars | Carrigian | Irromic Empire | Nyasaland | Reichsmarine | KuK Marine | Archemagarias | Volta | Total |
| Thryssen | AV-4 | 60 | 20 | 15 | 35 | 20 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | 150 |
| Thryssen | KW-1 | 45 | 5 | - | - | - | 10 | 25 | - | - | 50 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | 135 |
| Thryssen | KW-2 | 20 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | 45 | - | - | - | - | - | - | 65 |
| Thryssen | KTW-2 | - | 10 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | 60 | - | - | - | - | - | 70 |
| Thryssen | KTW-3 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | |
| Reinhardt | GK-1 | - | - | - | 15 | - | - | - | 40 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | 55 |
| Reinhardt | GK-2 | - | 10 | - | - | 35 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | 10 | - | - | - | - | 55 |
| Reinhardt | GK-3 | - | - | 10 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | 40 | - | - | - | - | - | 50 |
| Reinhardt | GK-4 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | |
| Wanderer | W-1 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | |
| Wanderer | W-2 | 85 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | 100 | - | - | - | - | - | 185 |
| Wanderer | W-3 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | |
| Wanderer | W-4 | 80 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | 55 | - | - | - | 135 |
| Wanderer | W-5 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | 120 | - | - | - | - | - | 120 |
| Wanderer | W-6 | - | - | - | - | - | 30 | 10 | - | - | - | - | 60 | - | - | - | - | - | 100 |
| Wanderer | W-7 | 60 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | 20 | - | - | - | 10 | 90 |
| Wanderer | W-8 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | 40 | - | - | - | 40 |
| Skoda | SkW-1 | - | 10 | - | - | - | - | - | 30 | 12 | 15 | - | - | - | 30 | 25 | 10 | - | 132 |
EDIT: Short tables:
| Thryssen | 420 |
| Reinhardt | 160 |
| Wanderer | 670 |
| Skoda | 132 |
| Irromic Empire | 380 |
| Reichsmarine | 125 |
| Werser | 350 |
| Kubachin | 55 |
| Romani | 25 |
| Polska | 50 |
| Slovene | 55 |
| Switzen | 40 |
| Dubania | 35 |
| Czechna | 70 |
| Zubain | 12 |
| KuK Hussars | 65 |
| KuK Marine | 25 |
| Carrigian | 45 |
| Nyasaland | 30 |
| Archemagarias | 10 |
| Volta | 10 |
Last edited:
- Location
- Russia
- Pronouns
- He
Actually, it works for my phone even though I have to scroll it sideways to see it all.
Can you add the totals for each tank and country to the table, though? It would make the comparisons easier.
Last edited:
Mind adding a "total" column? And I think the SkW-1 Reichsmarine entry was supposed to be teal like the others.
Winged_One²
SACQ Tablemaster
- Location
- Germany
Well, I think I'm going to edit the post once more with tables for how many tanks each nation/organization has (might be inaccurate if anyone is state-manufacturing any), and how many each manufacturer has sold.
Done
Fixed
7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
It's probably going to be innacurate- there's other manufacturers, like the Werser Panzerwerke and Lionel.
- Location
- Somewhere
Are you sure? I am under the impression that 10 + 30 + 25 + 15 + 30 +12 + 10 = 132.
10 + 30 = 40
40 + 25 = 65
65 + 15 = 80
80 + 30 = 110
110 + 12 = 122
122 + 10 = 132
40 + 25 = 65
65 + 15 = 80
80 + 30 = 110
110 + 12 = 122
122 + 10 = 132
Also, @Winged_One², the tanks made number is actually 90 over the "tanks made per country" column. I'm not sure why, but that's what both my calculator and a spreadsheet have told me.
Last edited:
7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
Important note: the assorted Landwere units are all the provincial armies of the Wersers, so those tanks should probably get counted for them too. The catch is, of course, that those provinces aren't exactly happy right now- something might have to be done.
Edit: votes called
Last edited:
Winged_One²
SACQ Tablemaster
- Location
- Germany
I accidentally the 100 W-2 we bought, while 10 SkW-1 were missing from the production totals but not the national inventories.
Contest 4: Testing 1 Results
7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
It was four days later that Gryfon was sent back to you, shadows deep under his eyes. The Accountant Branch had been chugging away at the math overtime, and the results were depressing. Three of the Legion-Kaptains were in favor of the Skoda, but the money didn't add up. It wasn't even an issue with the starting costs, no- the issue was the cost to run the blasted things, in terms of ammunition and gasoline and oil. Judging by the initial repair work to fix it after it's trench bath, the man-hours to bring one back into operation after a knockout would be prohibitively large. As such, Mair had managed to talk everyone involved into loosening the requirements and feeding you some more data.
For starters, the engineers had been contacted, and that right there changed the ball game entirely- because you got slapped with a forty ton weight limit for the bridges, and a two and three quarters width limit for the landing craft. This automatically ruled out the SkW-1 and tentatively took out the SkW-2, presuming it was just a straight upgrade on the -1 model. The landing craft commanders were also very happy with the forty ton weight limit, as their maximum hauling capacity was sixty tons and most of them were used to deploying an entire company of Seebatalioners at a time or the better chunk of an artillery battery. That knocked the sixty-five ton GK-4 off the competition, too.
This left you with the rather desultary KTW-3, or the Ghermain Brother's Np-1. The Commorate Casting's tank had arrived, however (the SkW-2 being held up finding suitable waterborne transport) and had been promptly and vaingloriously given the designation of the Upw-1. Designed around a licensed derivative of the Np-1's double wheel on a bellcrank system, it had a rounded and slightly piked front end of twenty millimeters, and side plates of nine millimeters. The gun in the turret was a standard 5,5cm field piece, and the turret was made of fourteen millimeter welded plates from Skoda. For light weapons, it had a pintle-mounted Zemmer machine gun in 13.2mm for handling armored cars and distance shooting, as well as a coaxial 6.5mm and a backup in a forward ball mount. In road testing, it made twenty four kilometers an hour according to Commorate, and could reach the requested fuel endurance via filling the expandable rear-mounted fuel bladders. For aquatic segments, they licensed the canvas raft system from the Werser YtS-7, complete with lack of self propulsion.
After that good news came the ass chewing, though. Wulf's main issues with your current decisions was an overemphasis on the water crossing, as well as complaints with the ability to actually buy and maintain a company per brigade. Fischer derided the ability of the not-yet failed infantry tanks to handle bridge crossings, and lamentably withdrew his support for the SkW-1 due to this issue. Klingemann mentioned tentatively that you might need a new RFQ, because his best depot facilities couldn't handle moving armor plate like the Skoda designs would inevitably have, nor could they work with complex engines and the roads in Nyasaland were too narrow for anything large. Rosenzwieg was frustrated at a lack of tractors and the fact only the Np-1 would be able to consistently work in the swampy morass of the Volta river delta. Mair was apparently drinking rather heavily, because the current designs required him to re-negotiate a priority list from the Seebatalions.
So, things had gone absolutely tits up at some point. Time for damage control. Happily enough, you had several options, even if they just boiled down to "cancel testing and get ready to write a new RFQ" if you were willing to piss away a week on Sand Island. Since Anne-Marie had yet to get Mother into a proper frenzy over your idiot of a brother and therefore remove him from your apartment building, though, that wasn't so bad. At least if you weren't testing things, you weren't spending money. Well, much money.
VOTES (BY PLAN)
[] Continue Testing
[] Stop Testing
-[] New RFQ
--[] Wait for Mair & Co to get you Seebatalion spec sheets?
--[] You can do it yourself, damn the torpedoes.
---[] Write in second RFQ
-[] Old RFQ is fine.
-[] Change testing?
--[] Write-in changes from last winning plan
(NOTE: If I as GM give you an options flowchart like this, end lines copied from the flow chart don't cost money- only write-in areas will end up with budget costs.)
For starters, the engineers had been contacted, and that right there changed the ball game entirely- because you got slapped with a forty ton weight limit for the bridges, and a two and three quarters width limit for the landing craft. This automatically ruled out the SkW-1 and tentatively took out the SkW-2, presuming it was just a straight upgrade on the -1 model. The landing craft commanders were also very happy with the forty ton weight limit, as their maximum hauling capacity was sixty tons and most of them were used to deploying an entire company of Seebatalioners at a time or the better chunk of an artillery battery. That knocked the sixty-five ton GK-4 off the competition, too.
This left you with the rather desultary KTW-3, or the Ghermain Brother's Np-1. The Commorate Casting's tank had arrived, however (the SkW-2 being held up finding suitable waterborne transport) and had been promptly and vaingloriously given the designation of the Upw-1. Designed around a licensed derivative of the Np-1's double wheel on a bellcrank system, it had a rounded and slightly piked front end of twenty millimeters, and side plates of nine millimeters. The gun in the turret was a standard 5,5cm field piece, and the turret was made of fourteen millimeter welded plates from Skoda. For light weapons, it had a pintle-mounted Zemmer machine gun in 13.2mm for handling armored cars and distance shooting, as well as a coaxial 6.5mm and a backup in a forward ball mount. In road testing, it made twenty four kilometers an hour according to Commorate, and could reach the requested fuel endurance via filling the expandable rear-mounted fuel bladders. For aquatic segments, they licensed the canvas raft system from the Werser YtS-7, complete with lack of self propulsion.
After that good news came the ass chewing, though. Wulf's main issues with your current decisions was an overemphasis on the water crossing, as well as complaints with the ability to actually buy and maintain a company per brigade. Fischer derided the ability of the not-yet failed infantry tanks to handle bridge crossings, and lamentably withdrew his support for the SkW-1 due to this issue. Klingemann mentioned tentatively that you might need a new RFQ, because his best depot facilities couldn't handle moving armor plate like the Skoda designs would inevitably have, nor could they work with complex engines and the roads in Nyasaland were too narrow for anything large. Rosenzwieg was frustrated at a lack of tractors and the fact only the Np-1 would be able to consistently work in the swampy morass of the Volta river delta. Mair was apparently drinking rather heavily, because the current designs required him to re-negotiate a priority list from the Seebatalions.
So, things had gone absolutely tits up at some point. Time for damage control. Happily enough, you had several options, even if they just boiled down to "cancel testing and get ready to write a new RFQ" if you were willing to piss away a week on Sand Island. Since Anne-Marie had yet to get Mother into a proper frenzy over your idiot of a brother and therefore remove him from your apartment building, though, that wasn't so bad. At least if you weren't testing things, you weren't spending money. Well, much money.
VOTES (BY PLAN)
[] Continue Testing
[] Stop Testing
-[] New RFQ
--[] Wait for Mair & Co to get you Seebatalion spec sheets?
--[] You can do it yourself, damn the torpedoes.
---[] Write in second RFQ
-[] Old RFQ is fine.
-[] Change testing?
--[] Write-in changes from last winning plan
(NOTE: If I as GM give you an options flowchart like this, end lines copied from the flow chart don't cost money- only write-in areas will end up with budget costs.)
Himmelhand
Giant Sinkhole 2020
- Location
- Midwestern US
Maybe tell the Seebatalion to piss off until they actually know what they're asking for?
Can we proceed with testing on the Np-1 since it's mostly acceptable? The Commorate tank seems insufficient unless we're willing to settle for something a lot less than the initial RFQ. If the Np-1 works as a tank in non-amphibious situations we should probably just take it and run.
Can we proceed with testing on the Np-1 since it's mostly acceptable? The Commorate tank seems insufficient unless we're willing to settle for something a lot less than the initial RFQ. If the Np-1 works as a tank in non-amphibious situations we should probably just take it and run.