Strategic Arms Quest 3/2: Armor Edition

[NothingNow]

Well yeah, armor proliferation is a thing, and the Kubachis are really getting into the assault gun game. Between that and Bahlk tread-guns (that 25cm thing they have for cracking bunker reinforced trench lines open might be the big example, but it's the 12cm and the 7,5cm ones that have High Command worried) there's enough proliferation of material assets that being able to successfully engage them is A Thing now, especially after the Carragians got smacked in the opening stages of the Taelexi South Islander Liberations when it turned out a Taelexi armored car is proof to a Carragian-load 12.7mm cartridge until about seventy meters, at which point the Carragian PrS-2 and -4 family vehicles were regularly getting shredded by 20mm cannons at four hundred meters.

So needless to say it's presumed that Carragia's New Things are proof to 20mm up to a reasonable distance, which is a problem because most of the official anti-material weapons on the books are 13.2mm heavy machine guns and 20mm guns derivative of the ones mounted on a W-5. Fun times ahead!

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Our behind the scenes notes are pretty fun. (also, reminder that like outside of team votes, I mostly just break ties and exist to troll vote.)
Honestly, the Kubachi Army is into a lot of new and horrifying things (like 15cm assault guns, and some actually kinda decent medium tanks with three man turrets etc.) The Kubachi Marines are doing their level best to come up with weirder shit, having discovered the two man turret and the gun-mortar, so all before them is death.

And yes, Carragia has not only developed more effective transportation for fighting on their home turf of the Mammoth Steppe, but have developed some really neat stuff about which you don't really have great information because it turns out it's really hard to get good intel out of some of the more remote Carragian Arcologies. Like an autoloaded 37mm gun they're pretty proud of.

The Wersers have gotten a bit better about AFVs, but the Werser Artillery have mostly just been using their AFV production capacity to build more and better prime movers as well as starting on a family of what are either assault guns Skoda would love, or heavy self-propelled artillery, ranging from siege mortars to their 13cm Counter Battery Gun (Irmione Intelligence isn't sure what they're looking for at this point, it could even be a new heavy tank program.) Tanks have been mostly ignored in favor of getting everything else mobile while Armored cars have been getting updates in a neat spiral development process. The Dread Movo might have further insight.

Balkh stuff is going mostly the same way (but like without the siege guns,) but they're actually spending on light tanks. And SPAAGs. Lots and lots of light tanks and SPAAGs, and self-propelled guns related to said light tanks and SPAAGs.

Meanwhile, the Tæxali military has been fucking around with amphibious operations and amphibious and mostly failing at the later part. But they've got some cool new Landing craft to show for it, and a light tank that might pan out. Also, some noises about small-caliber recoilless rifles that are like almost safe to use. Their army is basically an adjunct to their Navy anyway, so it's probably not a big deal.

 

[7734]

*blinks*

Oops.

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It's a wheel on a bogey on a bellcrank. This is quite literally the opposite of rocket science. Here's a little video even.



EDIT: There's even a part-by-part design in Besiege, if you want to see how one works one piece at a time.

 

[Winged_One²]

Speed trials:

Tank	Straight	Curved
LSkW-24	24/25/27	26/24/26
GBA-16	55/56/58	45/Flipped Tank/38
KW-12	30/28/29	26/28/28
Armids	36/38/35	30/29/32
MANN CO	46/47/46	40/39/Track fail when turning

Ranging test:

Tank	100m	200m	500m	Unknown (distance)
LSkW-24	1	1	3	4 (325m)
GBA-16	2	4	8	5 (240m)
KW-12	3	3	3	5 (600m)
Armid's	1	1	2	4 (375m)
MANN CO	1	3	4	6 (410m)

Armor:

Tank	AT Gun	2cm	3.5cm	5.5cm	7.5cm
LSkW-24	pass	pass	pass, some wear	Failed on shot four, pass front. Immobile but operational	Front failed on shot four, destroyed but salvagable
GBA-16	pass	failed side, 12/22 penetrate. Operatable	Front failed in one shot, total loss
KW-12	Found weakpoint, ammo blew up	-	-	-	-
Armid's	pass	pass	Fail side, radio compartment, operatable	pass front	fail on first shot, salvagable
MANN CO	pass	pass	pass	fail side, mobility kill, fail front, destroy weapons. Salvagable

 

[7734]

Your repair test worries me. What exactly will "wrecked" be interpreted to mean?

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For purposes of accounting, there's four types of wrecked tank.

Mobility kill: The tank is rendered immobile. This isn't just losing a track, this is serious damage to the suspension or drive train and requires assistance from a recovery vehicle.

Mission kill: The tank has been compromised in it's armor scheme and or weapons.

Destroyed: The tank has been damaged to the point that depot repairs- that is, Regiment level and below- cannot restore the tank to fighting condition and it needs to go back to the Divisional motor pool for repair or back to the manufacturer.

Total Constructive Loss: The tank has been so badly damaged buying a new one is more economical. The only remaining use for this is as a parts hulk, scrap metal, and four panel comics.

 

[Winged_One²]

Retesting the Thryssen:

Tank	AT Rifle	20mm	35mm	55mm
KW-12 (2)	Pass, numerous "soft areas" damaged	Front pass, side 6/20 pens	Front pass, problematic spalling	Fail, total constructive loss

Repairs:

Tank	Suspension (type)	Roadwheels	Transmission	Engine	Bonus 1	Bonus 2	Total Hours	Total Crew
LSkW-24	45min (Torsion Bar)	45min	4h45min	2h30min	45min (Radio)	6h (Armor Plate)	14h	35
KW-12	3h (Christie)	30min	1h	1h	3h (Turret)	N/A	8h30min	35
Armid's	45min (Vertical volute spring)	30min	1h	1h	45min (POL Tanks)	3h (Underbody)	7h	20
MANN CO	30 (Chistie)	30min	1h	3h	1h (Systems Test)	N/A	6h	20

Maintenance after Rally Course

Tank	Course Time	Refuelling	Work Bill
LSkW-24	14h	2	1x Roadwheel, oil change, wash
KW-12	10h	1	1x track, 2x road wheel
Armid's	8h		1x VVS module, 2x tracks, Oil fill, Radiator Fill
MANN CO	6h		Oil fill, radiator fill, wash

 

[7734]

A Short List of Irromine Heavy Weapons

(As of Anno Domine Solaire 879)

Light Weapons

Lmg.71
-An early repeating rifle project later enlarged into a full sized light machine gun. Recoil operated, long stroke, fed from top rack to be charged with ten round stripper clips. Changed to a detachable box on ausf. E, which can be topped off with stripper clips. Weighs 6.1kg, feeds 6.5 Irrome.

Lmg.79
-A new model of light machine gun designed to provide more powerful suppression fire without the punishing action of the Lmg.71. Recoil operated, short stroke, fed from a canvass belt spool. Has integral bipod and mount for Model 75 prismatic optic for long range work. Weighs 6.2kg, feeds 6.5mm Irrome.

Mg.52
-The oldest and first deisgned model of machine gun in Irromine service. Recoil operated, short stroke, toggle locked, fed from a canvass belt box. Generally mounted on a tripod or converting sled mount. Weighs 65kg, fires 6.5mm Irrome

Mg.58
-A refinement and massive weight reduction on the Mg.52, using a heavier recoil spring and a more massive bolt to delete the toggle lock, as well as being open bolt. Recoil operated, short stroke, feeds from canvass belt box or spool. Weighs 50kg, fires 6.5mm Irrome

Mg.66
-A further redesign of the Mg.58, this time air cooled with a three-stage spring system for the recoil buffer and a new metallic belt that supports push-through loading. Recoil operated, short stroke, feeds from metallic belt box or spool. Weighs 23kg, fires 6.5mm Irrome.

Smg.62
-A heavy machine gun designed for long range work and attacking airplanes, armored cars, and use on ships. Gas operated rotating locking bolt operation, tripod mount, feeds from thirty round feed strip. Gun weight 28kg, tripod 25kg. Fires 13.2mm Irrome.

PzJGew.69
-An antimaterial rifle designed to defeat new and improved enemy armor assets. Bolt action operation, integral bipod mount, single shot feed, uses 3.2x or 5.6x prismatic optics. Gun weight, 16.3kg. Fires 13.2 Irrome

Slk.69
-An autocannon developed by Skoda Arms and production liscensed to Wanderer for their tanks, and very similar to the Smg.62. Gas operated rolling locking bolt design, pintle or dedicated weapon mount, feeds from twenty round strip, can use standard optics. Gun weight, 34kg. Fires 20x80mm rimless.

Heavy Weapons

3,5cm/50 Field Cannon
-Weight: 100 Kilos
-Elevation: -5 to 20
-Carriage: M.55 split-trail
-Shell Weight: .645 kilos
-War Load: 120 shells in 20-shell cases on the ammunition cart, 80 shells in shell cases on the limber
-Movement: One Horse or Two Men or One Kettenkrad

5,5cm/50 Field Cannon
-Weight: 1100 Kilos
-Elevation: -3 to 25
-Carriage: M.55 split-trail, or M.59 split-trail
-Shell Weight: 3.2 Kilos
-War Load: 80 shells in 10-shell cases on the ammunition cart, 10 shells in shell case on the limber
-Movement: Two horses or One Oxen or One Kettenkrad

7,5/50 Field Cannon
-Weight: 1400 Kilos
-Elevation: 0 to 30
-Carriage: M.60 split-trail, or M.64 split-trail
-Shell Weight: 7 kilos
-War Load: 60 shells in 6-shell cases on the ammunition cart, 12 shells in shell cases on the limber
-Movement: Six horses or Two oxen or One Kettenkrad

10,5/40 Field Howitzer
-Weight: 2,500 Kilos
-Elevation: 0 to 30 (0 to 60 on M.890 and later)
-Carriage: M.45 single-trail, M.55 split trail, M.60 split trail, or M.64 split trail
-Shell Weight: 19 kilos
-War Load: 60 shells on ammunition cart in two-shell boxes, up to four shell carts per gun organically.
-Movement: Eight horses or four oxen, two horses per ammunition cart or one tractor

5/60 Anti-Armor Gun
-Weight: 420 Kilos
-Elevation: -10 to 30
-Carriage: M.55 split trail, M.60 split trail, or M.70 split trail low profile.
-Shell weight: .90kg
-War Load: 20 shells on the limber, 40 in on ammunition cart or tow vehicle.
-Movement: One Kettenkrad or One Truck or One Tractor.

(Edit: Despite appearances, the defining line between light and heavy isn't weight, but is capacity to fire explosive shells)

 

[OneirosTheWriter]

-War Load: 60 shells on ammunition cart in two-shell boxes, up to four shell carts per gun organically.

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You know, it never really sunk in for me why so fucking many people were in supply columns, or in artillery units, until I actually started looking over numbers like these while researching a project. Even an hour's barrage from a unit goes through some fucklarious weight per artillery battalion.

Fire two shells a minute for an hour, at ~20kg a shell, plus a couple kg for the shell-boxes, and that's a quarter-ton per gun, and a ton per battery. Early wave Wehrmacht used 3 battalions of 12x10.5cm leichte Feldhaubitze, so 36 guns is nine whole tons of ammunition gone in an hour, without even considering the 15cm battalion they also had, or the weight of mortars used down the chain. So that's about four trucks loaded with ammo that need to arrive on the hour every hour to keep that division in supply just for the 10.5s, assuming everyone is conveniently located. Keep that firing up for a day of heavy combat and you're going to need a train load to replenish that unit by itself.

...

Sorry, that was a bit of a sidetrack. Lingering research/maths trauma, you see. >.>

 

[TortugaGreen]

You know, it never really sunk in for me why so fucking many people were in supply columns, or in artillery units, until I actually started looking over numbers like these while researching a project. Even an hour's barrage from a unit goes through some fucklarious weight per artillery battalion.

Fire two shells a minute for an hour, at ~20kg a shell, plus a couple kg for the shell-boxes, and that's a quarter-ton per gun, and a ton per battery. Early wave Wehrmacht used 3 battalions of 12x10.5cm leichte Feldhaubitze, so 36 guns is nine whole tons of ammunition gone in an hour, without even considering the 15cm battalion they also had, or the weight of mortars used down the chain. So that's about four trucks loaded with ammo that need to arrive on the hour every hour to keep that division in supply just for the 10.5s, assuming everyone is conveniently located. Keep that firing up for a day of heavy combat and you're going to need a train load to replenish that unit by itself.

...

Sorry, that was a bit of a sidetrack. Lingering research/maths trauma, you see. >.>

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Not a bad calculation, but I think you're off by around an order of magnitude. One gun firing 120 20kg rounds yields 120*20=2400kg fired, or around 2.5 tons. 36 guns would use 86.4 tons of shells themselves, not to mention propellant, casings, shell boxes, and the rest, which probably at least doubles the required mass flow. more than 170 tons per hour is an absolutely enormous quantity, and you're probably talking about several train-loads per day, if not hourly depending on the size of the train. Forget trucks for anything other than individual gun supply at this point.

 

[Winged_One²]

So, since we're talking about the chassis again, I figure I would shill my writing on how to avoid conflicting missions in AFVs. Which is incredibly generic, but still something you should pay attention to.

Well, I call it my writing, but it's the stuff @7734 and I yell at people on my server, summarized into a nice, easy to read (thanks to him, not me) post without any "Nyet"s or "rifle is fine".

----​

Personally, I think big-gun AA with MT shells is not our concern - they are pretty shit on the field, though they are good for protecting more static assets, so we might want to do something. Our main task I see in the 30mm+ autocannon range. They offer a good rate of fire so that they can actually hit a moving target (opposed to MT fuzed big guns, which are only really useful against level bombing without radar). Opposed to the 20-30 range, they offer a lot more range and a lot more damage per hit. The range is the important part here, there are limits to how many of these we can buy even if we put them on the truck and not a tracked chassis. A higher range means that they can cover more area, or can stay a bit further behind the front lines.

Thus, I'm going to cast the first vote, namely:
[X] Work on the Weapons Specifications
-[X]A Shell firing gun of at least 30mm caliber with a muzzle velocity of 850m/s. Ammunition should be fed through a belt or an uninterrupted clip feed, not through magazines or other things that halt the firing. The gun should be able to fire at least 70 rounds in the first minute, using up to 2 loaders, spare ammunition lying next to them.​

 

[Winged_One²]

Also I'm bored, have a table

Design	Cartridge	Action	RoF	Feed
Baal	46x400	Long-recoil, Verticall Sliding Breech Block (Bofors)		Three-round clips in uninterrupted top feed
Potsdam Armory	35x280	Open bolt, probably gas actuated in some form	400	Pull-push-belt
Torpedo Boat Gun	40x360	Gas-operated locking bolt		Eight-round spindle, topped of with single rounds
Furrer & Mukame	28x165 or 28x210	Toggle-lock, short recoil		Belt
Armor Branch	20x82	Gas-op rolling bolt		Belt
Lightning Knife	19x110	Externally driven Gatling	Gravity feed probably will have issues exceeding 1000	Gravity tray

So, while we can not test guns yet, that's what we got. A Bofors in a middle ground between the two calibers they made OTL, a not really great gun firing 40mm Bofors. A generic 35mm autocannon which we probably should test.

After that, we got toggle-lock memes, a sensible conversion of what we have that has no harm in testing it and the first gatling. Firing what should be close to 20x110 USN, the round of the Oerlikon. I want to test it to get a foot into Gatling development, even if it doesn't turn out great yet.

So, in short, drop the torpedo boat gun for being bad for sustained fire, drop the toggle lock for being a toggle-lock that's not a Maxim.